Revisiting the 1910 PC805 Novelty Cutlery Postcard set.

[Bicem]

Great info Kevin, think you meant 1907 in that 2nd to last paragraph.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Great info Kevin, think you meant 1907 in that 2nd to last paragraph.

Thanks Jeff. Correction made.

[Arazi4442]

Appreciate the information, Kevin! You're completely right about the rookie designation becoming "a thing" in the hobby and the 10X or more premium that can be attached to it.
As GI Joe cartoons taught me in the 1980s. "Now we know and knowing is half the battle"

[Bicem]

Are the "expert" grading companies still referencing the 1907 date? Those look like newer SGC holders in REA. This honestly should be pretty common hobby knowledge by now for anyone at all familiar with the set.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Kudos to Kevin for all of his fine efforts, he has played a key role in improving the accuracy of identifying pre-war baseball rookie cards. Kevin did an incredible job over many years with regards to proper dating of the various types of W600's, an issue which contains a plethora of potential rookie cards but only certain "types" are the true rookie version. I know that Scott B and probably several others on this board are also super knowledgeable when it comes to dating the W600's so no slight intended towards anyone at all, just want to point out what a valuable resource that Kevin has been across the board with many early 20th Century issues.

[rickalaska]

COMPLETELY DISAGREE with any assessment that NOVELTY CUTLERY cards were just produced in 1910. First, unless anyone was alive and collecting these cards in 1910 or has definitive proof, how would they know these cards were issued in only that year? I am familiar with these cards and probably have more of them then anyone on this thread, so I have a stake against people putting out erroneous information. My research shows:

Amazingly, seems like ALL the other regional postcard sets of the era went out the same year an image was produced - why should this be the ONLY set that is different?

If all cards were issued the same year, why would some have only "last names" and some have "full names" of the players? Why would some have backgrounds and some not? How do you misspell Walter "Johnston" (Johnson) and "Honas" (Honus) Wagner as late as 1910?

MOST IMPORTANT: The "D" on Cobb and Crawford's cap is from the 1907 season. ENLARGE THE IMAGE - the "D" style on their cap in the photo was worn by the Detroit Tigers from 1904-1907. Look at the middle hook on the outside bar - there is ONE hook in the middle. AFTER the 1907 season (from 1908-1913), there were TWO leftward hooks at the middle. PROOF this photo is from 1907 or earlier. Cobb is also wearing the same uniform as in his 1907 Detroit Seamless Steel Tubes card.

PLANK and COLLINS were both on the Philadelphia A's - Plank is wearing a plain "Philadelphia style" cap that the A's wore to 1908. Collins is wearing the "Pillbox" cap that the A's wore from 1909 to 1914. PLANK is just listed by his last name. COLLINS is listed by his full name EDDIE COLLINS. Same team - Two different uniforms - two different card formats - photos are clearly from two different years.

TRIS SPEAKER is clearly wearing a 1908 uniform - why would they wait until 1910 to print that?

ART DEVLIN was with NY Giants from 1904-1911. The "NY" logo was added to their sleeve from 1908 and beyond. This image DOES NOT have any logo. His best season was 1906. HAL CHASE was also with the Giants and HAS THE LOGO on his left sleeve. Two players from the same NY GIANTS team - different uniforms - obviously different years

EVERS and SHAEFER card - Pictured together - they are both wearing uniforms from the 1908 season. They played against each other (Tigers vs Cubs) in the 1907 and 1908 World Series. Why would anyone take that photo in 1908 and wait to print it into a 1910 set - they were not immortals like Cobb and Wagner. NOTE the "double-hook" "D" on Shaefer's uniform - that dates this card to the 1908 season.

CHRISTY MATHEWSON's jersey with the "NY" on the chest dates from 1904 to 1907.

CHARLEY STREET was in Washington from 1908-11. He was better known as "Gabby Street" further into his career. This is likely closer to 1908.

NAP LAJOIE is wearing the same uniform he is wearing in the 1908 American Pub. Co. card.

HONUS WAGNER's batting card - sleeve logo was used 1908-1909 - could be either season

ARTIE HOFFMAN is wearing a uniform from the 1906 season - he would have been better known as "Solly" later in his career

ED WALSH's uniform "C" appears to be from the 1906-07 season

Not having an early postmark doesn't mean anything - these cards were regionally produced in CANTON, OHIO and obviously scarce, or there would be a lot more of them out there right now.

There is evidence that several cards in the set were from the 1909 season, but there is NO EVIDENCE that every card was produced only in 1910. My research shows the original 1907-09 date frame is far more correct then 1910. And if the Sepia images from the other set are "anonymous" - how does anyone know that they were just printed in 1910?

REA made the wrong call in changing the dates to 1910 in their recent auction - if I was the consigner, I would have yanked the cards immediately. Someone is spreading a lot of bad information - I see it has reached PSA.

Below is TY COBB on the NOVELTY CUTLERY card - Note that the left outside portion of the "D" on his cap has a single hook in the middle, that matches up with the logo used by the Detroit Tigers from 1904-1907. In 1908-1913, the Tigers wore a completely different two-hook type "D" that DOES NOT match what is on COBB's cap. This image is clearly 1907 or earlier. As noted earlier - look at the "D" on Shaefer's uniform and you will clearly see his logo is a "double hook" 1908 logo.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by rickalaska

TRIS SPEAKER is clearly wearing a 1908 uniform - why would they wait until 1910 to print that?

ART DEVLIN was with NY Giants from 1904-1911. The "NY" logo was added to their sleeve from 1908 and beyond. This image DOES NOT have any logo. His best season was 1906. HAL CHASE was also with the Giants and HAS THE LOGO on his left sleeve. Two players from the same NY GIANTS team - different uniforms - obviously different years.

Show me one card with a postmark before 1910. Novelty Cutlery postcards are not that rare to where a single example should not exist. Same goes for the PC796 Sepia series.

What year do you think that the PC796 Series (which has the exact same subjects and exact same images) was issued?

It would make no sense for Novelty Cutlery to make a card of Speaker in 1908. He was not even on the team until the end of the year, played in only 31 games and hit a paltry .224.

When did Hal Chase and Art Devlin play together? Hal Chase only played one year for the New York Giants - 1919.

How do you explain the inclusion of pitcher Sam Frock? He played in 5 games in 1907, none in 1908 and eight in 1909. 1910 was his big year - he pitched in 46 games.

Some of the images used for the cards are from 1907 or maybe even earlier, but I do not think that they were produced until 1910.