the list (of criminals) is revealed

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

correct...jaywalking is jaywalking...and murder is murder...just as fraud is fraud...and shilling is shilling. lets not cross streams here.

Yeah, but...What if I hit somebody with my car while they're jaywalking??? Is that murder??? What if the person happened to be my ex-wife??? (I mean, if I HAD an ex-wife???) Help a brotha out here...

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Mark

In all seriousness you kind of sound like an employee of an AH trying to justify shill bidding.

Its a shame IMO that the staggering buyers/sellers premiums aren't enough for the scoundrels at XYZ auction house that nets them upwards of 35% off the top of whatever value your item currently holds when most of them can't even be bothered to provide pictures of items proving authenticity but some feel IMO its their god given rite to charge an additional 20-25% through shill bidding practices to additionally line their pockets and look like heroes to their consigners in the attempt to bring back future consignments.

Unfortunately for anyone such as myself whose bid and won at an auction house common sense dictates IMO that shill bidding has been a standard business practice for the past 20+ years.

Most people involved in this practice of shilling who derive their living from these sales obviously don't see anything wrong with the practice since it appears and feels like its industry wide.

Does anyone really think that these AH's don't know who individuals are that are bidding in their auctions especially the higher rollers and what your spending and collecting habits are and what you might be willing to pay?

Does anyone in their rite mind really trust these AH's self policing themselves in regards to ethic violations with the easy money thats at stake?

Can anyone even imagine the shredding and deleting of incriminating documents that has and will continue to go on until big brother steps in?

Its also quite apparent that white collar crime pays these days as the punishment that is handed out is hardly a deterrent or fits the crime of bilking the public out of hundreds of thousands of dollars for years upon years.

I don't believe at this point give the sorry state of affairs of the hobby that any benefit of the doubt can be given to AH's without proof of their stated business practices and/or innocence in regards to these matters, without these auctions being run by some type of independent government appointed body to oversee these practices.

The cats been out of the bag for a longtime now in regards to these practices and it takes sensational stories to motivate people to speak out.

Its also quite apparent IMO that someone or something has motivated Game Used Collector to make the thread about this very subject unavailable on their site for the past 2-days.

IMO Its also quite disturbing the gestapo type tactics that have been and are being employed over at Ken Goldin's GUU to silence the community since IMO it is Ken who likes to portray himself in his marketing schemes as some type of friend and good guy to collectors.

IMO GUU is nothing more than a marketing arm of Goldin Auctions since its take over. It also appears IMO that only items that don't appear in Goldin Auctions can be publicly questioned now for fear of being banned or being publicly scolded for doing so.

Its a shame that the powers that be in this hobby feel the need to silence and or discredit anyone or thing that comes out and questions any of the misdoings and going on's that occur so frequently now that most hobbyists just want to turn a blind eye until they are confronted face to face with the truth.

IMO why doesn't Ken get off his high horse and explain himself in regards to this matter? instead of choosing to hide behind this posted reply on his behalf on GUU:

"I am aware, as is Ken, that his name appears as a consignor on the list made public by Doug Allen as part of his attempt to reduce his jail sentence. Ken will not be discussing this matter on any public forum, a matter that is over eight years old and references when he was a private collector five years before Goldin Auctions was formed. However, if it is important for you to hear from him, he will discuss this matter personally with you and has done so with a number of members already. His email address is Ken@GoldinAuctions.com.

I also want to ensure our friends, consignors, bidders and business partners that this list has nothing to do with the current business of Goldin Auctions. When founded in the summer of 2012, Goldin Auctions was built with the interests of bidders and consignors in mind. From its beginning, it was explained to me that Goldin Auctions has implemented extensive ethics, rules and compliance safeguards built in to protect bidders and consignors including:

1. Goldin Auction employees do not have access to maximum bids. Our auction software provider has turned off, at our request, our ability to see your proxy/ceiling bids. A maximum bid placed online will never be known or seen by us in order to hold our auction process to the highest industry standards. This is for both bidder and consignor protection.

2. Goldin does not have access to passwords. While that can often cause an inconvenience when someone forgets their password, it gives bidders the assurance that their account is safe.

3. Goldin has a reserve system. We state the rules on reserves, and they are posted online. This avoids issues of hidden reserves or using shill bidding to meet a hidden reserve.

4. We use the highest authenticity procedures in the business. We will not sell non-authenticated items; we do not issue our own LOAs; we rely on the most respected industry experts for all authentications. In addition, as many of you know, even with these procedures in place we will still routinely pull items during an auction if there is a third-party authenticator error. Further, as many of you have experienced, when concern over an item is brought to our attention we are extremely responsive to any questions.

5. We implement limited credits for any new bidders. We do not give new bidders unlimited bidding rights with us when they register. We restrict them with a strict bidding limit until they have been proven to be credit worthy and legitimate users. Even with other auction references, we still place limits on most bidders initially to protect all other auction bidders and consignors.

For a complete list of our compliance rules, you can click the link below:

https://www.goldinauctions.com/rules.aspx

When I joined Goldin Auctions in February 2013, I researched the way the company was established and made a post as to why I was joining Goldin Auctions. As you know from my creating Game Used Universe in 2005, the credibility of the industry is of utmost importance to me and I will only associate with an entity I believe is committed to consistently doing what is right. I do not feel anything has changed with regard to Goldin Auctions. If it did, I would not continue in my position with them".

Sincerely,
Chris
__________________
Christopher Cavalier
Vice President of Consignments - Goldin Auctions

These are my opinions and views from my experiences over the past 35+ years of being a hobbyist

Ron Kosiewicz

[Leon]

To me, We aren't discussing legality. We aren't discussing right or wrong. Shilling is wrong and (in some or most) cases illegal.

That being said I think the scenarios Mark17 laid out make sense to discuss. If you go 65mph in a 55mph zone you will generally get a ticket if stopped (*and you aren't a pretty girl, we aren't). But if you are going 137mph in a 55mph zone you will probably go to jail. Both are speeding, both are wrong....one is worse than the other. I look at each line item as it's own scenario but can also see patterns etc...just like everyone else. I hope we don't stifle a good discussion (understanding it might not be good to some)...

Originally Posted by Stonepony

I agree. I don't see the point in discussing different scenarios of illegality.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

Yeah, but...What if I hit somebody with my car while they're jaywalking??? Is that murder??? What if the person happened to be my ex-wife??? (I mean, if I HAD an ex-wife???) Help a brotha out here...

LMAO..quit that, now back to the story....

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

Mark

In all seriousness you kind of sound like an employee of an AH trying to justify shill bidding.


These are my opinions and views from my experiences over the past 35+ years of being a hobbyist

Ron Kosiewicz

Ron,
I agree with much of what you say here. But, if you read my post again, you'll see that I'm not defending shill bidding. I'm saying:

1. I think it's quite possible a consignor might have shill bidding occur on his items without knowing it; the AH using that method rather than the preferred reserve method, to comply with a consignor's condition of his items hitting certain price. All the consignor knows is that his items either sell or don't - he doesn't know, or care, about the bidding history or computer code behind the scenes. Isn't it reasonable to see a scenario where this could happen?

2. I, personally, on items that I, personally am bidding on, do not care what is in the heart of the person I'm bidding against. I don't care if they want the item to resell, to add to their collection, to give to someone as a gift, or if it's someone trying to bump the price up. I'm NOT saying it's OK, I am saying that I, personally, bid what I want to bid, and if someone wants to play the shill game on me, they'd best realize they may very well get burned.

Others feel differently. I get that. If you or anyone wants to bid against me in an auction, feel free to do so regardless of your motive because I don't know what you're thinking and I don't care.

3. I'm saying that if an AH uses max bids to screw bidders, it's a crime that should be punishable by fine or jail. I don't know how I could've put that in stronger terms.

Now, as to your comment quoted above, I'm tired of defending myself against these personal attacks and accusations. No, I don't work for an auction house and never have. And I am not, nor have I ever been, a member of the Communist Party.

[Jeffrompa]

The Spirit of Law is much more important than the letter of the law .

[bcornell]

I had to Google "GUU" to learn what it is. The super long defense of his employer by an employee seems to be that since Goldin started an auction house, they're now behaving themselves. As if we all just fell off the turnip truck.

Every argument on this thread where someone essentially said "it's the hobby, just lump it", I'd say get me back the $180 (at least) that I see Mastro stole from me, then we can talk.

Finally, the AdBlock extension for Chrome is a great way to block "sponsors".

Bill

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I wondered if it would be possible to express an opinion here without being personally attacked........... guess not.

The answers are "no." I don't beat my wife either (only because I'm not married.)

I'm not sure why you took that question as a personal attack because I think it's a fair question to ask. I am not at all interested in hearing what shill bidders think about any of this. I think a lot of people who are not on the list have not chimed in at all due to the fact that they, too, have shilled items, either in Mastro during the years the records were destroyed, or with other auction houses. There are far more offenders than what appears on that list.

Keep in mind, that list is just 2 years from just one auction house. There are probably quite a few board members who have shill bidding skeletons in their closets and are hoping everyone would just drop this issue and move on to funner things.

I disagree with most of what you say in points 1 and 2 and I don't understand why so many people are coming to the defense of the people named on the list when they are perfectly capable of doing that themselves. If you think there are examples where something on the list might have looked like shill bidding, but was not, please let us know. Perhaps there are answers to those questions. If someone has been incorrectly added to that list, let us know. Or at least let us know why they can't come here and question it on their own.

But your point about there being different degrees is valid. Is Peter S. the same as Doug Allen? No way. Not even in the same ballpark. That's why he's not going to jail. But he's still a shill bidder. There are some examples of multiple offenders that were undeniably involved in shill bidding, though. Are you really suggesting that JC Clarke, or Kevin Keating, or Dave Forman shouldn't be on the list?

I would have thought that anyone who looked at the list or knew anything about Doug Allen would be able to easily put into perspective the differing levels of criminals that made the list.

Doug Allen > JC Clarke > Peter Spaeth



-Ryan

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

I'm not sure why you took that question as a personal attack because I think it's a fair question to ask. I am not at all interested in hearing what shill bidders think about any of this. I think a lot of people who are not on the list have not chimed in at all due to the fact that they, too, have shilled items, either in Mastro during the years the records were destroyed, or with other auction houses. There are far more offenders than what appears on that list.

Keep in mind, that list is just 2 years from just one auction house. There are probably quite a few board members who have shill bidding skeletons in their closets and are hoping everyone would just drop this issue and move on to funner things.

I disagree with most of what you say in points 1 and 2 and I don't understand why so many people are coming to the defense of the people named on the list when they are perfectly capable of doing that themselves. If you think there are examples where something on the list might have looked like shill bidding, but was not, please let us know. Perhaps there are answers to those questions. If someone has been incorrectly added to that list, let us know. Or at least let us know why they can't come here and question it on their own.

But your point about there being different degrees is valid. Is Peter S. the same as Doug Allen? No way. Not even in the same ballpark. That's why he's not going to jail. But he's still a shill bidder. There are some examples of multiple offenders that were undeniably involved in shill bidding, though. Are you really suggesting that JC Clarke, or Kevin Keating, or Dave Forman shouldn't be on the list?

I would have thought that anyone who looked at the list or knew anything about Doug Allen would be able to easily put into perspective the differing levels of criminals that made the list.

Doug Allen > JC Clarke > Peter Spaeth



-Ryan

Maybe my posts have not been clear, or maybe you are ascribing some preconceptions on them/me, so I will respond to you once more to see if I can clarify:

A. I'm not a shill bidder. I've only sent about 8 items to auction houses in the past 20 years, so I'm not anything close to being a "frequent flyer." If possible, let's focus on the issue, and the points raised, rather than on me.

B. There are only about 5 names on the list that I even recognized, and nobody whom I have spoken to in the past 20-odd years. I did do business with one of those named back in the 1980s a few times. So I cannot comment on who is/isn't there.

C. I'm not defending anybody because I don't know the players or their crimes, or the validity of the list for that matter. For those same reasons I'm not comfortable condemning them either. Maybe more (substantiated) info will come out and that might change... we'll see how this plays out.

Others here are much quicker to judge and that's up to them. If you want to take issue with the fact I'm not grabbing my pitchfork and joining you, that's fine. If it turns out people were using bidders' maximum bids against them, I'll join you and bring a howitzer.

When you say: "But your point about there being different degrees is valid..." that's good because that was about 90% of what I was trying to get across.

[Canofcorn]

That list was huge. Thought I would never stop scrolling down. Wow

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

Mark

In all seriousness you kind of sound like an employee of an AH trying to justify shill bidding.

Its a shame IMO that the staggering buyers/sellers premiums aren't enough for the scoundrels at XYZ auction house that nets them upwards of 35% off the top of whatever value your item currently holds when most of them can't even be bothered to provide pictures of items proving authenticity but some feel IMO its their god given rite to charge an additional 20-25% through shill bidding practices to additionally line their pockets and look like heroes to their consigners in the attempt to bring back future consignments.

Unfortunately for anyone such as myself whose bid and won at an auction house common sense dictates IMO that shill bidding has been a standard business practice for the past 20+ years.

Most people involved in this practice of shilling who derive their living from these sales obviously don't see anything wrong with the practice since it appears and feels like its industry wide.

Does anyone really think that these AH's don't know who individuals are that are bidding in their auctions especially the higher rollers and what your spending and collecting habits are and what you might be willing to pay?

Does anyone in their rite mind really trust these AH's self policing themselves in regards to ethic violations with the easy money thats at stake?

Can anyone even imagine the shredding and deleting of incriminating documents that has and will continue to go on until big brother steps in?

Its also quite apparent that white collar crime pays these days as the punishment that is handed out is hardly a deterrent or fits the crime of bilking the public out of hundreds of thousands of dollars for years upon years.

I don't believe at this point give the sorry state of affairs of the hobby that any benefit of the doubt can be given to AH's without proof of their stated business practices and/or innocence in regards to these matters, without these auctions being run by some type of independent government appointed body to oversee these practices.

The cats been out of the bag for a longtime now in regards to these practices and it takes sensational stories to motivate people to speak out.

Its also quite apparent IMO that someone or something has motivated Game Used Collector to make the thread about this very subject unavailable on their site for the past 2-days.

IMO Its also quite disturbing the gestapo type tactics that have been and are being employed over at Ken Goldin's GUU to silence the community since IMO it is Ken who likes to portray himself in his marketing schemes as some type of friend and good guy to collectors.

IMO GUU is nothing more than a marketing arm of Goldin Auctions since its take over. It also appears IMO that only items that don't appear in Goldin Auctions can be publicly questioned now for fear of being banned or being publicly scolded for doing so.

Its a shame that the powers that be in this hobby feel the need to silence and or discredit anyone or thing that comes out and questions any of the misdoings and going on's that occur so frequently now that most hobbyists just want to turn a blind eye until they are confronted face to face with the truth.

IMO why doesn't Ken get off his high horse and explain himself in regards to this matter? instead of choosing to hide behind this posted reply on his behalf on GUU:

"I am aware, as is Ken, that his name appears as a consignor on the list made public by Doug Allen as part of his attempt to reduce his jail sentence. Ken will not be discussing this matter on any public forum, a matter that is over eight years old and references when he was a private collector five years before Goldin Auctions was formed. However, if it is important for you to hear from him, he will discuss this matter personally with you and has done so with a number of members already. His email address is Ken@GoldinAuctions.com.

I also want to ensure our friends, consignors, bidders and business partners that this list has nothing to do with the current business of Goldin Auctions. When founded in the summer of 2012, Goldin Auctions was built with the interests of bidders and consignors in mind. From its beginning, it was explained to me that Goldin Auctions has implemented extensive ethics, rules and compliance safeguards built in to protect bidders and consignors including:

1. Goldin Auction employees do not have access to maximum bids. Our auction software provider has turned off, at our request, our ability to see your proxy/ceiling bids. A maximum bid placed online will never be known or seen by us in order to hold our auction process to the highest industry standards. This is for both bidder and consignor protection.

2. Goldin does not have access to passwords. While that can often cause an inconvenience when someone forgets their password, it gives bidders the assurance that their account is safe.

3. Goldin has a reserve system. We state the rules on reserves, and they are posted online. This avoids issues of hidden reserves or using shill bidding to meet a hidden reserve.

4. We use the highest authenticity procedures in the business. We will not sell non-authenticated items; we do not issue our own LOAs; we rely on the most respected industry experts for all authentications. In addition, as many of you know, even with these procedures in place we will still routinely pull items during an auction if there is a third-party authenticator error. Further, as many of you have experienced, when concern over an item is brought to our attention we are extremely responsive to any questions.

5. We implement limited credits for any new bidders. We do not give new bidders unlimited bidding rights with us when they register. We restrict them with a strict bidding limit until they have been proven to be credit worthy and legitimate users. Even with other auction references, we still place limits on most bidders initially to protect all other auction bidders and consignors.

For a complete list of our compliance rules, you can click the link below:

https://www.goldinauctions.com/rules.aspx

When I joined Goldin Auctions in February 2013, I researched the way the company was established and made a post as to why I was joining Goldin Auctions. As you know from my creating Game Used Universe in 2005, the credibility of the industry is of utmost importance to me and I will only associate with an entity I believe is committed to consistently doing what is right. I do not feel anything has changed with regard to Goldin Auctions. If it did, I would not continue in my position with them".

Sincerely,
Chris
__________________
Christopher Cavalier
Vice President of Consignments - Goldin Auctions

These are my opinions and views from my experiences over the past 35+ years of being a hobbyist

Ron Kosiewicz

col·lu·sion

/kəˈlo͞oZHən/
noun

secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others.
Example:
"When I joined Goldin Auctions in February 2013, I researched the way the company was established and made a post as to why I was joining Goldin Auctions. As you know from my creating Game Used Universe in 2005, the credibility of the industry is of utmost importance to me and I will only associate with an entity I believe is committed to consistently doing what is right. I do not feel anything has changed with regard to Goldin Auctions. If it did, I would not continue in my position with them".

[clydepepper]

CON.CLU.SION

Can we finally put this thread to bed...or move it elsewhere...?
.
.

[SyrNy1960]

Taking full responsibility and owning it: A person doesn’t take 100% full responsibility, if they then follow up and put a spin on it to somewhat justify their actions. “I knew it was wrong, but at that time, it’s what everyone was doing.” You knew it was wrong and you did it anyway. The end!

[ullmandds]

i think it's interesting a bunch of y'all want this thread put to rest...or moved. SERIOUSLY? This is the biggest news(even though we knew it was happening prior to "the list") whether positive or negative to hit our beloved hobby pretty much ever.

Does this discussion make some of y'all uncomfortable? If so...WHY?

Ya...I'd much rather look at countless threads of fake wagners and 52 topps mantle cards.

SERIOUSLY?

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

CON.CLU.SION

Can we finally put this thread to bead...or move it elsewhere...?
.
.

bump

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Canofcorn

That list was huge. Thought I would never stop scrolling down. Wow

Hey, douche bag, put your name in your post!

And if any of the other members didn't read what he wrote earlier and then edited out, yes, he is a douche bag.

Edited to add: I've had a couple board members ask me what he said. Basically he said how this was only a 'rich white man's' crime. There was more, but that's the gist of it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

man looking at the last 30 or so posts..i have to think, man some posters think MY posts are confusing ...but yet they can understand all of those posts with the analogies ..I need a rosetta stone

[Joshchisox08]

Not sure if anyone posted this as I haven't payed too much attention to this thread but:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ya...ampaign=buffer

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

man looking at the last 30 or so posts..i have to think, man some posters think MY posts are confusing ...but yet they can understand all of those posts with the analogies ..I need a rosetta stone

Well-posted Jake

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Not sure if anyone posted this as I haven't payed too much attention to this thread but:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ya...ampaign=buffer

I posted that a while back in this long and winding road thread

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

I posted that a while back in this long and winding road thread

Yes, always the contrarian instigator. Nice....

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i think it's interesting a bunch of y'all want this thread put to rest...or moved. SERIOUSLY? This is the biggest news(even though we knew it was happening prior to "the list") whether positive or negative to hit our beloved hobby pretty much ever.

Does this discussion make some of y'all uncomfortable? If so...WHY?

Ya...I'd much rather look at countless threads of fake wagners and 52 topps mantle cards.

SERIOUSLY?

This topic should be talked about as long as needed until there is full disclosure of who did what followed by verifiable results thru a 3rd party of change in business practices moving forward.

I would also have to question the motives of anyone that would want to see this topic silenced after the damage that a few at the top have done and continue to do to the entire hobby.

[mickeymao34]

Almost 90k hits and approaching 700 replies? This is an amazing thread with many avenues to explore that hasn't even been walked down yet.

[mickeymao34]

guu emergency staff meeting monday morning 2/1/2016. from left to right: CC, moderators, and KG the brain

[conor912]

Originally Posted by mickeymao34

This is a amazing threads with many avenues to explore that hasn't even been walked down yet.

What?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by conor912

What?

what are it about those thread it dont u git?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by mickeymao34

Almost 90k hits and approaching 700 replies? This is an amazing thread with many avenues to explore that hasn't even been walked down yet.

Not defending anyone but........Here is an avenue to explore......Care to explain why you are banned from Goldin Auctions for not paying a 3k'ish invoice from Oct 4, 2013? Might that be at least a partial motive as to why you are posting? I would imagine not paying for an invoice could almost be considered shill bidding.

[ALR-bishop]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

what are it about those thread it dont u git?

Cat's fur to make kitten's britches

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by Leon

Not defending anyone but........Here is an avenue to explore......Care to explain why you are banned from Goldin Auctions for not paying a 3k'ish invoice from Oct 4, 2013? Might that be at least a partial motive as to why you are posting? I would imagine not paying for an invoice could almost be considered shill bidding.

Ken is an outstanding member in the hobby.

[Canofcorn]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Hey, douche bag, put your name in your post!

And if any of the other members didn't read what he wrote earlier and then edited out, yes, he is a douche bag.

I don't stoop to namecalling. You would not say this to my face, believe me.
You have shown yourself to be exactly who you are.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Canofcorn

I don't stoop to namecalling. You would not say this to my face, believe me.
You have shown yourself to be exactly who you are.

You can not post anymore in this thread without putting your full name next to your post. I am not taking sides only trying to maintain the rules.....


and to correct an above statement concerning an invoice day and date to Mike Wo.ng, it was actually a $3700 invoice from 11//2014....other than that, I am out of it...not my problem.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i think it's interesting a bunch of y'all want this thread put to rest...or moved. SERIOUSLY? This is the biggest news(even though we knew it was happening prior to "the list") whether positive or negative to hit our beloved hobby pretty much ever.

Does this discussion make some of y'all uncomfortable? If so...WHY?

Ya...I'd much rather look at countless threads of fake wagners and 52 topps mantle cards.

SERIOUSLY?

Thanks, I just spit my coffee on my desk laughing!

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

man looking at the last 30 or so posts..i have to think, man some posters think MY posts are confusing ...but yet they can understand all of those posts with the analogies ..I need a rosetta stone

Your posts ARE confusing; don't sell yourself short.

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My name appears on the list of "shill bidders" on one transaction where my friend, Ron Goldberg, was the consignor. I don't view myself as a shill bidder, nor do I believe Ron did anything inappropriate. I have no doubt that some of you will disagree, and candidly I have shared this with a few people I respect a lot and they come out different ways. In any event, these are the facts.

In 2007, Ron had a valuable but relatively low demand oddball set (one of the Red Men sets). At some point he was talking to Doug and Doug asked if he would consider consigning the set. Ron said that he would but that because it was an oddball set, he was reluctant to do so unless a reserve could be placed on the auction, particularly since one of Ron's lots had sold well below his expectations in a previous auction. Doug said that he would not place a formal reserve, but instructed Ron that he could achieve the same result if he had a friend bid the reserve amount. Doug insisted, however, that if the friend won the auction, Ron would have to pay the buyer's premium.

Ron then asked me if I would bid for him. After thinking it over, I agreed. My thinking at the time was that Ron was not going to consign the set anyhow without a de facto reserve (so that there really was no scenario of a no reserve auction where someone could have won the set for a pittance), and that because Ron was going to have to pay the buyer's premium if I won, the result would be the same as if I paid for the set and then flipped it back to Ron.

As it turned out, Ron's fear was correct and nobody outbid me, even though Ron had hoped the set might go much higher than my bid and in fact sold it for 20k more eventually. So he paid the premium and the set was returned to him. It worked out exactly the same as if there had been a reserve, or higher opening bid. No victim. Nobody "run up." To be clear, Ron had no idea who else had bid or whether they had placed a top all. I am pretty sure, by the way, that many of the lots identified by the government as allegedly involving shill bidding (including multiple lots consigned by other Net 54 board members whose names have not been mentioned yet) are of the same character. Some, on the other hand, doubtless are lots where Mastro and Allen knew the top alls and bid them up themselves, or told the consignor.

I understand there are different ways to view the transaction. We have, in fact, debated this issue before at least in the abstract. I understand the other side, and have no doubt many of you folks will vilify Ron and me. So be it. I have nothing to hide. And apologies for the delay in posting, but I needed to verify the facts with the consignor.

If you are going to vilify Ron, by the way, please be sure to include the other board members identified as consignors on multiple lots, it would be very unfair to single him out.

Question will be coming.

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by Leon

You can not post anymore in this thread without putting your full name next to your post. I am not taking sides only trying to maintain the rules.....


and to correct an above statement concerning an invoice day and date to Mike Wo.ng, it was actually a $3700 invoice from 11//2014....other than that, I am out of it...not my problem.

see my last post. In this case better to be a dead beat bidder with 2600 saved than a du ma out 2600 and stuck with a jersey with a question mark.

[smokelessjoe]

Originally Posted by batsballsbases

Question will be coming.

Let me guess the question...

In two separated postings Peter_Spaeth stated that he himself had placed a bid on Ron's item - but in a later post Peter_Spaeth states that he allowed Ron to use his personal account to place a "Reserve Bid".

The question: Peter, which is it? Did you place a "reserve bid" for Ron or did Ron use your account to place his own Reserve Bid?

Shawn England

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My name appears on the list of "shill bidders" on one transaction where my friend, Ron Goldberg, was the consignor. I don't view myself as a shill bidder, nor do I believe Ron did anything inappropriate. I have no doubt that some of you will disagree, and candidly I have shared this with a few people I respect a lot and they come out different ways. In any event, these are the facts.

In 2007, Ron had a valuable but relatively low demand oddball set (one of the Red Men sets). At some point he was talking to Doug and Doug asked if he would consider consigning the set. Ron said that he would but that because it was an oddball set, he was reluctant to do so unless a reserve could be placed on the auction, particularly since one of Ron's lots had sold well below his expectations in a previous auction. Doug said that he would not place a formal reserve, but instructed Ron that he could achieve the same result if he had a friend bid the reserve amount. Doug insisted, however, that if the friend won the auction, Ron would have to pay the buyer's premium.

Ron then asked me if I would bid for him. After thinking it over, I agreed. My thinking at the time was that Ron was not going to consign the set anyhow without a de facto reserve (so that there really was no scenario of a no reserve auction where someone could have won the set for a pittance), and that because Ron was going to have to pay the buyer's premium if I won, the result would be the same as if I paid for the set and then flipped it back to Ron.

As it turned out, Ron's fear was correct and nobody outbid me, even though Ron had hoped the set might go much higher than my bid and in fact sold it for 20k more eventually. So he paid the premium and the set was returned to him. It worked out exactly the same as if there had been a reserve, or higher opening bid. No victim. Nobody "run up." To be clear, Ron had no idea who else had bid or whether they had placed a top all. I am pretty sure, by the way, that many of the lots identified by the government as allegedly involving shill bidding (including multiple lots consigned by other Net 54 board members whose names have not been mentioned yet) are of the same character. Some, on the other hand, doubtless are lots where Mastro and Allen knew the top alls and bid them up themselves, or told the consignor.

I understand there are different ways to view the transaction. We have, in fact, debated this issue before at least in the abstract. I understand the other side, and have no doubt many of you folks will vilify Ron and me. So be it. I have nothing to hide. And apologies for the delay in posting, but I needed to verify the facts with the consignor.

If you are going to vilify Ron, by the way, please be sure to include the other board members identified as consignors on multiple lots, it would be very unfair to single him out.

Originally Posted by RGold

I was the consignor of a 1955 Red Man set in the August, 2007 Mastro Auctions which appears on the list being discussed. It is the only item where my name is listed as consignor and Peter Spaeth as the bidder.

Peter has already related the facts and expressed views as I see them. People may question my ethics but I ask that they at least acknowledge that this was the lone entry on a very long list, and that this one transaction was much different than many of those listed. I have had many private transactions with people on this board and as a seller and buyer on eBay, and I hope my past dealings are at least considered before passing judgment.

I made the decision to consign this set with Mastro Auctions despite the fact they would not use a reserve or high starting bid. They told me that they would allow me to select one bidder to place what constitutes a hidden reserve, as long as I understood that if that bid was the winning bid, I would have to pay a buyer's premium on that amount.

I assumed this was an acceptable practice as I was told this was done on other Mastro auction lots. At that time I believe Mastro Auctions was considered the premier auction house in our hobby.

I have been a member on this board for about 8 years, and have read the many discussions regarding shill bidding. My understanding and views have evolved over that time like I am sure it has for many other members. I understand and agree that using a hidden reserve in the way Mastro Auctions suggested is wrong. I only ask that the members here consider that this was done in 2007, that it was recommended by the leading auction house, that it was done once, that the hidden reserve was a fraction of the value of the lot, and that the buyer's premium was paid by me.

There was no intent to deceive anyone. This set was #1 on the PSA Registry by a very large margin. Every card was the highest graded at that time and almost half of the 50 cards were the only ones graded at that level. Any one interested in Red Man cards could see that I retired the set before the auction and then re-registered the set after the auction showing that the set had not changed hands.

Finally, and most importantly, I want to clarify the record. Peter is a good friend and wrote his explanation in such a way as not to distance himself from me, but the fact of the matter is that he did not place these bids, I did. He did know what I was doing because we discussed how I had been instructed to proceed by Doug Allen, and he does not deny that, but he was not an active participant in the bidding. The worst part of this whole affair is that an honest, good guy is being hurt for doing me a favor.

Im a little confused here Peter and I wanted to maybe see if YOU could clarify this. I posted up your response from post 143 and your friend ron from post 403.
You say "Ron then asked "ME" if I would bid for him after thinking it over "I"agreed. Then a little further on you say "No one out bid me"

Then as Ron Goldberg says in his post " but the fact of the matter is that he didnot place these bids I did" "he didnot know what I was doing. He wasnot an active participant in the bidding"

So my question is this WHO BID?
It is clear that one of you is lying. Or as a lawyer might put it not telling the truth.
So again just to clear this up WHO BID? Very simple to answer.
If it was you than you shilled your friends auction, If it was Ron than he shilled his own auction. Just curious Peter to the response.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

Let me guess the question...

In two separated postings Peter_Spaeth stated that he himself had placed a bid on Ron's item - but in a later post Peter_Spaeth states that he allowed Ron to use his personal account to place a "Reserve Bid".

The question: Peter, which is it? Did you place a "reserve bid" for Ron or did Ron use your account to place his own Reserve Bid?

Shawn England

Fair question let me clarify. Ron placed the bids, as he stated. When I first posted -- as Ron also stated -- I did not want to try to distance myself from/blame Ron because he is a friend, so I did not emphasize that distinction. I believe this answers Al as well.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Canofcorn

I don't stoop to namecalling.

No you just stoop to making disparaging remarks about "white people".

[1880nonsports]

edited to allow this overall serious discussion to stay on point

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i think it's interesting a bunch of y'all want this thread put to rest...or moved. SERIOUSLY? This is the biggest news(even though we knew it was happening prior to "the list") whether positive or negative to hit our beloved hobby pretty much ever.

Does this discussion make some of y'all uncomfortable? If so...WHY?

Ya...I'd much rather look at countless threads of fake wagners and 52 topps mantle cards.

SERIOUSLY?

Pete - I understand your point of view. I guess I am just (or only) uncomfortable with this subject because I have not (to my knowledge) been a victim of such misdeeds. I'm a small time player in the hobby so perhaps that is my 'protection'.

The notices of fake cards are usually very helpful even though the two cards you mention will always be out of my reach (damn powerball quick pick).


Having a thread entitled '...list of criminals...' takes a lot of the 'gloss off the apple' for me, but I realize it's better to wash anything before you eat it.


Anyway...it's raining today and I'm just looking for sunny days with high skies and a gentle breeze coming in from left.

Ah yes, the eternal hopefulness of Spring...
.
.

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Fair question let me clarify. Ron placed the bids, as he stated. When I first posted -- as Ron also stated -- I did not want to try to distance myself from/blame Ron because he is a friend, so I did not emphasize that distinction. I believe this answers Al as well.

Thats what I wanted to know.
So again to be clear YOU gave ron your account and password with your knowledge and he acted from his computer and placed the shill. Thats a yes or no answer councilor....

[Beastmode]

"The speed of light is faster that the speed of sound that is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak"

I've read every post in this thread, some twice. There's everything in here from a$$ raping to accusations of racism; but in between is a wealth of good knowledge and educated rants.

However, this signature line from Al, is funniest sh** I've seen in a while.

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

Let me guess the question...

In two separated postings Peter_Spaeth stated that he himself had placed a bid on Ron's item - but in a later post Peter_Spaeth states that he allowed Ron to use his personal account to place a "Reserve Bid".

The question: Peter, which is it? Did you place a "reserve bid" for Ron or did Ron use your account to place his own Reserve Bid?

Shawn England

Shawn that is exactly what I want to know....

[smokelessjoe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Fair question let me clarify. Ron placed the bids, as he stated. When I first posted -- as Ron also stated -- I did not want to try to distance myself from/blame Ron because he is a friend, so I did not emphasize that distinction. I believe this answers Al as well.

I think Peter_Spaeth answered the question... But part of the answer leads me to believe that Ron placed multiple bids using Peters account because Peter states: "Ron placed the bids"...

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by batsballsbases

Thats what I wanted to know.
So again to be clear YOU gave ron your account and password with your knowledge and he acted from his computer and placed the shill. Thats a yes or no answer councilor....

Peter,
My guess is that you wont answer the last part of my question on the grounds that it might incriminate you.. Or in other words plead the 5th...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

I think Peter_Spaeth answered the question... But part of the answer leads me to believe that Ron placed multiple bids using Peters account because Peter states: "Ron placed the bids"...

No there was only one lot involved I am sure. 9 years later I really don't recall what the bidding was on the one lot it may well only have been one bid and I misspoke.

[Peter_Spaeth]

,

[nsaddict]

Does Al have a last name?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Your posts ARE confusing; don't sell yourself short.

ah and your posts really add value and people thank you for their posts...I guess my last post wasn't confusing for you to comment..

I know I will be confused if you actually post something that people in the hobby would value when commenting to me.


and no. posts about .fake 1952 Topps Mantle and Wagners on ebay do not count if you go there...