what do you guys make of this t206?

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Posted By: Anonymous

Cockfighting has been part
of American culture for a very long time. In the United States, famous presidents, who were lovers of the
game, were George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, and Abraham Lincoln (“The
History of Cockfighting”). Abraham Lincoln got his nickname “Honest Abe” not for his politics, but
because of his honesty as a cockfighting referee (Berger). It was socially acceptable and encouraged for a
gentleman to have a flock of gamecocks and to be an expert on the sport. At one point, the U.S. became a
center for cockfighting activities and events. Cockfights were even held in the committee rooms of the
President. It is said that the fighting-cock almost became the national emblem. It lost by one vote to the
American eagle. However, cockfighting declined when the civil war started.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Darn. So slavery was abolished and then cock-fighting. What next, let me guess -- women will be allowed to vote? Too bad Elkins wasn't around those times, huh?

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

That paragraph pretty much sums up those gentlemen's attitudes towards slavery, at the time.

"socially acceptable and encouraged."

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

as a historian, i can tell you that you would be very surprised at how people really felt about slavery. you aren't exactly accurate bob.

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

My point was really, that cockfighters Washington, Jackson and Jefferson were also slaveholders, so their cultural attitudes are not above question.

While attitudes about slavery may have varied, depending on what part of the country one is discussing, the south supported slavery strongly enough, to fight a war to preserve it.

I think the July 1863 Draft Riots, showed a pretty strong and widespread (tens of thousands participated) distaste for emancipation among New York's citizens, also.

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

it might come to the surprise of many that new york city was at one time the central hub of slavery. if you came to the new world before the end of the transatlantic slave trade chances are the first place you landed was new york city.

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Posted By: John

Jeff be careful I think Scott is on the phone right now discussing his lawsuit with his attorney....and other buddy who likes to threaten lawsuits..



Besides I would sue if I were you Jeff, just imagine the new wardrobe you could outfit your chickens with from the Elkins Line after all he puts the "Chic" in Chicken with his new spring line up!



And to think he might have been able to sell it if it wasn't for us Net54...



Oh well I wouldn't worry to much Jeff he will be busy with the new 2009 Krispy Kreme Calendar folks in his neck of the woods really get excited about this bad boy!

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

Thanks for the "Elkins on the crapper" image, John. Oh well, didn't feel much like lunch anyway.

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Posted By: david Poses

are those fat chicks part of a card issue? i think i saw ms. october with a cycle 350 back on ebay. it was a PRO slab, though...

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Comeon, not a single offer for Elkins' piece of crap? Is there not a single kind soul to help supplement Elkins' disability payments so that his roosters can literally be dressed to kill (and be killed)? What a great country: ebay fraud + disability money = all that free time to molest roosters!

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Posted By: Steve Murray

Getting caught up on my reading after being away from a computer for a week (and you know it wasn't as tough as I thought it would be).

My take on this discussion:

The card? Legit.

Fraud? Don't see why seller being accused of it.

Libel? At least not on the part of the seller.

It was a fun read.

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Posted By: DD

Just couldn't bear to eat my best ones once they lost.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Have you guys been down to the bodega? Some idiot bounced a clown check.

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Posted By: ROBERT ADAMS JR

I owned this card at one time . Had in hand and though the United Cigar emblem was original and first printed for what that is worth .

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

sgc labeled the card as a sweet cap for what its worth.

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Posted By: Steve

sgc labeled the card as a sweet cap for what its worth




Can't argue that.


Steve

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Posted By: Joe D.

am I missing something?

I am trying to understand why anyone would believe that this card was stamped first?

I think people forget that the cards are printed on a large press sheet.
Even if you wanted to stamp the card.... why would anyone stamp a blank press sheet with absolutely no guide as to where to place the stamp?
How would that person know where to place the stamp.... so that it is not cut off (part on the card / part off)?

Stamping an item before it is printed and cut makes zero sense.

In all of my years in the printing business - and with all of my years of pulling wisdom from other generations of printers in my family and in my industry - I can't ever recall a time when a press sheet was pre-stamped before printing.

In short - it would be moronic.

The paper-loss explanation in the listing seems incredibly strange and unbelievable.

IMO - the paperloss PROVES that the stamp was there after the printing.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"In short - it would be moronic."

Joe, perhaps a lifetime of molesting roosters and skirting employment in favor of government handouts would allow you to see it a bit more clearly.

Meanwhile, SGC manages to label an "Old Put" overprint but missed this "underprint". And not a single offer for this beauty; who'da thunk it.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

you are in dire need of carpet based on that purple stuff you have, I do own a carpet store if case you have a great card to trade for some rug.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dan, I heard he has a couple of red Cobbs lying around.

PS--best post of the day. Nice to see you're not just focused on cards. Or roosters.

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Posted By: Joe Brennan

D.Davis September 6 2008, 6:22 PM


you are in dire need of carpet based on that purple stuff you have, I do own a carpet store if case you have a great card to trade for some rug.


Now that's funny right there. I don't care who you are.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: Joe D.

Wonka -

I just sent you an email.


Thanks,
Joe




edit: Joe B.... although I don't get what Lichtman and Dan K are referring to....
to your reference I can say..... get'r done!

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Posted By: Steve

What i don't understand is if the print is an 'under print'
why wouldn't SGC authenticate it as such?

Even if it is not mentioned in the standard cat?

Wouldn't they want to be the first to attribute it as such?


Steve

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Posted By: DD

Dan,
No purple carpet, just too much time on my hands. I saw that image in a local auction awhile ago, and knew if I waited long enough, I'd be posting it. Just didn't know the carpet would get the laugh, not the bronzed roosters.

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Posted By: david

Probably because sgc does not want to be the first associated with a bogus variation. But that is just a guess. The stamp is under the paper loss which suggests that the stamp was applied before the paper was layered to create the final thickness stock. So the stamp was applied to one layer of paper, then the final layers were applied. The cards were printed and then scrapbook removal reveals a hidden t206 back variation. And there is overlap between the stamp and the real back. Another situation which defies reason. Why people continue to insist that this card is legit is beyond me.

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Posted By: Joe Brennan

D.D.

You never know what this crowd will find amusing.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

DD, you definitely get credit for the bronzed roosters....but how Dan K could turn that into an attempt to sell you pimp-purple carpet -- that takes the cake.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Well, no one offered even a plug nickel for Elkins' piece of crap. I did notice, however, that he continues to read this board feverishly and respond by updating his auction and extolling all the kind email he received about the card and the "unfair" accusations that he's just a fraud (granted, an animal-abusing fraud). I guess all that alleged support didn't translate into anyone actually bothering to offer him even a pile of dirt for the card, however, despite his claim that this card is a "new discovery." Another new discovery might be Scott Elkins with a job.

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

shucks you guys. we missed the chance to get the card for 1500 and now he's going to raise the BIN because no one bought it.

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Posted By: leon

I am just sitting here at my desk laughing.....thanks for that one!!

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Posted By: SC

"Probably because sgc does not want to be the first associated with a bogus variation. But that is just a guess. The stamp is under the paper loss which suggests that the stamp was applied before the paper was layered to create the final thickness stock. So the stamp was applied to one layer of paper, then the final layers were applied. The cards were printed and then scrapbook removal reveals a hidden t206 back variation. And there is overlap between the stamp and the real back. Another situation which defies reason. Why people continue to insist that this card is legit is beyond me. "

If this was the case, and the stamp was an underprint...why would we see any part of the stamp besides where the paper is missing? For this theory to work, you'd have a stamp printed on the layer of paper underneath the surface. But we shouldn't be able to see the stamp that is in the area showing the Sweet Caporal logo?

I can't see how the stamp can be on both layers of the card, unless it was applied post-production.

This really doesn't seem that hard.

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Posted By: Tim

If he really does send this card to Kevin S. as his listing said, I will be interested in what Kevin has to say.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

I will trade my new line just in which has 4 purples including Triple pimpin purple. I will show a scan of the line in the next few days.Truly a classic line just for kids!

Just a Tolstoi Red CObb and I take care of de room !

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dan, I knew you'd come through.

From one non-carpet guy to the Master, however, I have to ask: is there such a thing as a "new line" in carpet? And where the hell were you when I was carpeting my apartment two years ago? I have at least one red Cobb and any number of 58 Topps cards to send send your way.

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Posted By: David Smith

To me, what the seller thinks he sees and is saying in his sales pitch is nothing but an optical illusion.

What I think has happened is that the original lettering was put down in strong, red ink while the "underprint" was put down over that REALLY lightly in black ink. Because the red is SO strong and bold and the black is faint and light, the red ink stands out. So much so that it LOOKS like the red ink is hovering over the black ink.

Maybe an artist, photographer or person familiar with optical illusions could comment on my theory.

David

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

you need the carpet, you call me with your product and I ship it to the closest distributor in your area. Knowing your address I could have saved you enough to buy 5 Cobbs as I am sure you had gotten the 5th ave hosing. Just for you know what and giggles , email me your product and size (do not want to know price) and I will send you an email of what I would have charged . This is of interest to me because I advertise the lowest price in the state of MIchigan. Surely I would be the lowest price in state of NY with ease.

I still want to change that soiled purple carpet above that noone claimed. That is the result of SHOES ON THE RUG !

Jeff- how did you get away with the 58 topps here , isnt this a pre war chat board? I will take your 57's though as long as they are sgc 86 and above ! oH and dont forget to include the CObbies.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Hi all,

I have the card in hand and can say without any doubt that the "cigars logo" was printed first and is well under the Sweet Cap.

The section of thin paper loss just exposed the logo creating a bolder look. There are small parts of paper loss on the logo as well.

It's the real deal and a nice example in my opinion.


Kevin

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www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Thanks for the update Kevin.....

Thats incredible.. any speculation as to how the stamp got there???

martyOgelvie