Non-delivery/severe delay on a BST transaction

[kevinlenane]

I wanted to poll the group on a friendly pre-war transaction the BST forum. Basically I ordered a couple pre-war cards on Dec 10 and I have not received them yet. The seller has been communicative when I ask questions and cordial but the investigation process just involves calling USPS which in my experience is not a wonderful experience for the caller nor does it achieve a ton. Anyway, he's making efforts there but the tracking has shown it as "in transit" for over a month. So my question is - how long do I wait until I get a refund? Two months? I'm assuming that folks agree that if a buyer doesn't receive an item they aren't responsible for it's cost but open to hearing other opinions there. Mostly though I just want to understand how long we should wait until I receive/ask for a refund.

Oh Additional wrinkle I just found out was that the seller didn't utilize insurance. I don't see any shipping issues as relevant to me since I didn't make any decisions on method - carrier etc. but again happy to hear if others differ.

I will also reiterate that the seller has been responsive and nice and it's not a contentious thing - I just want an independent opinion on next steps.

[kmac32]

I had a similar situation with an ebay card purchase. Mine was an S74 silk from a guy in Pennsylvania. Shipped on the 5th of December. Nothing by New Years so seller refunded. According to tracking fell off the face of the earth on the 9th of December. USPS has no clue as to what happened. May or may not show up. Ugh

[rats60]

Has he filed a lost package claim with USPS? I have had to do that twice in the last year. Both times USPS has found the package and delivered it in a couple days. Otherwise, the package may sit somewhere in their system for months.

[Jim65]

Seller is responsible until package is delivered. Have you and the seller discussed a refund?

[Brian Van Horn]

Just so we are clear on this matter. I am the sender of the package in question. I have contacted both the Pittsburgh consumer affairs department and the Long Island consumer affairs departments of the USPS. I am waiting to hear back from the latter. I have also previously opened not one, but two cases in the matter which were closed out on New York's end without notice or any information of any kind. As anyone who deals with me knows, I send out packages certified mail for tracking purposes.

[JustinD]

I think USPS had some holiday issues that were a tad worse than usual this year. The disorganization is apparent.

I had a package postmarked on 10/3 show up last Friday, more than 90 days after post. It showed "in transit" the entire time and the seller refunded me in November.

I reached out to them this weekend to provide payment as it was the right thing to do, however I have never had something bounce around the PO like this previously. I feel like something is up and it was not the seller.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Seller is responsible until package is delivered. Have you and the seller discussed a refund?

No matter what the above is always true.

With that said it is up to the reciepetiant how long they should wait till they should get refunded.

I have had this exact problem on both sides with members. As the seller I offer a refund after about 2 weeks. As a buyer I will easily wait a month.

I had a weird one with a trade where my stuff showed up on time and the other persons took close to a month to show up at my house. They did not provide a tracking #. Then when it finally showed up I looked at the date on the package and they had just sent it a few days earlier.

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Just so we are clear on this matter. I am the sender of the package in question. I have contacted both the Pittsburgh consumer affairs department and the Long Island consumer affairs departments of the USPS. I am waiting to hear back from the latter. I have also previously opened not one, but two cases in the matter which were closed out on New York's end without notice or any information of any kind. As anyone who deals with me knows, I send out packages certified mail for tracking purposes.

Hi Brian, go online and file a complaint with one of your Congressman/woman. The complaint will go right to the District Manager, who will bring a shit storm on the Consumer Affairs office to resolve this. It doesn't always work, because sometimes things just disappear, but many times they will resolve it quickly.

[36GoudeyMan]

Just to add my 2 cents, I just did a deal with Brian and everything went perfectly fine. I would only add that this doesn't seem to all be a seller issue, but more of a transportation one.

[Eddiez]

I have had the same thing happen to me selling a card. After about 2 weeks of it showing in transit I refunded the money, it wasn't much over a hundred dollars. About 3 weeks later the buyer contacted me that it had showed up and paid me again. It took about 5 weeks to show up. As a seller I feel that after 2 weeks or so I should send a refund, but that's just me.

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by 36GoudeyMan

Just to add my 2 cents, I just did a deal with Brian and everything went perfectly fine. I would only add that this doesn't seem to all be a seller issue, but more of a transportation one.

+1 on Brian. Always very diligent in his shipping and tracking. I am confident he'll do the right thing regardless of whether the package (and contents) are ever found again.

[1880nonsports]

over a month each. A third was sent out from FLA PO to Florida address - sent to other side of the country and now is back in originating PO to be sent out again from here to Florida address.....

edited to add a response for the OP that 30-45 days seems reasonable to me but we're a person to person type group here and a bit more flexibility especially with a known seller might be in order. Seller also has shown he is WORKING ON IT.

no guarantees whether written or implied

[RL]

Whenever I have a package where the tracking is not showing no movement, and its been 2 weeks or more, I file a stolen mail complaint saying I suspect a USPS employee stole the package.

Package gets "found" real fast.

[Eddiez]

I want to add I have bought from Brian before too. Package arrived in a timely manner and well packaged. Very smooth transition.

[tsalem]

This issue has happened to us 3 times over the last few months and we ship out many packages, daily. 1 of the problem packages was 37 days for a Priority! Follow up and get your local USPS to help start the research process. My guess is the package shows up shortly after the USPS starts the process.
Yes, shipper is still responsible but hope recipent is understanding and patient while the process plays out

[tab]

The same has happened to me twice. Both times package showed it had arrived at the Earth City MO facility ( and maybe departed facility) then nothing for a couple months both times. I was patient. Items arrived fine.

[ALBB]

Interesting, I would never think to contact a local congressman regarding a missing baseball card delv. ??

Whats that old song " Id like to help you son,but your too young to vote " !!

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by ALBB

Interesting, I would never think to contact a local congressman regarding a missing baseball card delv. ??

Whats that old song " Id like to help you son,but your too young to vote " !!

Yes, the USPS is a Federal Agency (Quasi), so Congress is in charge of it.

Another old saying "I'm from the government and I am here to help". When you hear that you know you will be bottle-necked in red tape for the next 6 months.

[oldjudge]

I have no dog in this fight, but disagree that in all cases the seller assumes the risk of loss. Each case is different and must be negotiated prior to finishing the transaction. The seller could offer to insure the package only if the buyer pays the insurance cost. If the buyer turns this down then risk of loss must be borne by the buyer. I have dealt with Brian many times in the past and each time we have discussed this very issue and I have paid the insurance. BTW, Brian is a great counterparty and always a pleasure to deal with.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I have no dog in this fight, but disagree that in all cases the seller assumes the risk of loss. Each case is different and must be negotiated prior to finishing the transaction. The seller could offer to insure the package only if the buyer pays the insurance cost. If the buyer turns this down then risk of loss must be borne by the buyer. I have dealt with Brian many times in the past and each time we have discussed this very issue and I have paid the insurance. BTW, Brian is a great counterparty and always a pleasure to deal with.

For me the only way the seller does not assume the loss is if the buyer requests it sent a cheaper way like in a PWE.

Jay I send payment TTM most of the time. If my payment doesn't show up would you still send me the cards even though my payment didn't show up?

I am sure we all agree Brian is a good guy.

[kevinlenane]

For the record - I had no interest in exposing the transaction - I really just wanted both of us to see what people would do in this situation and how long to wait. I have zero suspicion that this is in any way Brian's fault - just wanted to make that clear. I want to do what is right and fair in this situation - the verdict is basically that I'm going to wait a while longer. Thank you all for your input...

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I have no dog in this fight, but disagree that in all cases the seller assumes the risk of loss. Each case is different and must be negotiated prior to finishing the transaction. The seller could offer to insure the package only if the buyer pays the insurance cost. If the buyer turns this down then risk of loss must be borne by the buyer. I have dealt with Brian many times in the past and each time we have discussed this very issue and I have paid the insurance. BTW, Brian is a great counterparty and always a pleasure to deal with.

Insurance protects the seller.

If the buyer does decline insurance then they should bear responsibility but PayPal does not see it that way. PayPal (If paid by G&S) will refund the buyer if package was lost.

No one is questioning Brian's integrity.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Hi Brian, go online and file a complaint with one of your Congressman/woman. The complaint will go right to the District Manager, who will bring a shit storm on the Consumer Affairs office to resolve this. It doesn't always work, because sometimes things just disappear, but many times they will resolve it quickly.

As discussed many times, certified mail, while reportedly the safest way to go, it slow as shit. I've had a month go by with total confusion before seeing any movement. I always imagine some poor bastard has gone off to the hospital for weeks and the package is waiting on his desk because for some reason he has to sign it next and only him. I've never had a problem with dozens of BST transactions just going with a priority box and tracking.

I'm always on the fence about asking for higher levels of insurance. In a way I feel like that does nothing but flag it as something worth stealing if one is so inclined. On the other hand, with cameras, computers, etc., I suspect it would be awfully hard to a USPS employee to pilfer a package.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I just sent a $3500 BST purchase Certified from PA to TX and it only took a week. It's just unpredictable.

[edjs]

I’m sure you have probably done this, but just in case. Go to the tracking site and sign up for email notification of all movements. I have had packages take for ever in shipping, did this, and it miraculously showed up a few days later. Can’t hurt.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

As discussed many times, certified mail, while reportedly the safest way to go, it slow as shit. I've had a month go by with total confusion before seeing any movement. I always imagine some poor bastard has gone off to the hospital for weeks and the package is waiting on his desk because for some reason he has to sign it next and only him. I've never had a problem with dozens of BST transactions just going with a priority box and tracking.

I'm always on the fence about asking for higher levels of insurance. In a way I feel like that does nothing but flag it as something worth stealing if one is so inclined. On the other hand, with cameras, computers, etc., I suspect it would be awfully hard to a USPS employee to pilfer a package.

I doubt it would be hard at all for the delivery person. They are getting busted with their house/garage filled with undelivered mail on a fairly regular basis. My brother got an several year old piece of mail returned. They busted a delivery person with his garage and house full of undelivered mail. The USPS did their best to return all the mail they could.

[Silverskulls]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Hi Brian, go online and file a complaint with one of your Congressman/woman. The complaint will go right to the District Manager, who will bring a shit storm on the Consumer Affairs office to resolve this. It doesn't always work, because sometimes things just disappear, but many times they will resolve it quickly.

+1

Look up your rep here (https://www.house.gov/representative...representative) and call one of their in-State offices. Tell them you’re a constituent and need help with a USPS issue

[Tyruscobb]

[QUOTE=bnorth;1947447]For me the only way the seller does not assume the loss is if the buyer requests it sent a cheaper way like in a PWE.

Jay I send payment TTM most of the time. If my payment doesn't show up would you still send me the cards even though my payment didn't show up?

I am sure we all agree Brian is a good guy.[/QUOTE

I completely disagree that the seller assumes the loss and must provide a refund. Take a look at the Uniform Commercial Code.

UCC 2-509, entitled “Risk of Loss in the Absence of Breach” provides, in pertinent part:

(1) Where the contract requires or authorizes the seller to ship the goods by carrier

(a) if it does not require him to deliver them at a particular destination, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly delivered to the carrier even though the shipment is under reservation (Section 2-505); but

(b) if it does require him to deliver them at a particular destination and the goods are duly tendered while in the possession of the carrier, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly so tendered as to enable the buyer to take delivery.

The Official Commentary confirms that the scope of this section is expressly limited to scenarios where there has been no breach by the seller. In the alternative, if the delivery fails to comply with the contract specifications, UCC 2-509 does not apply and the situation is governed by the provisions on effect of breach on risk of loss. Accordingly, the analysis offered herein is limited to those situations where no breach has occurred.

A cursory reading of the provision confirms that if the seller is required to ship the goods by carrier, but not required to deliver the goods at a particular destination, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the seller duly tenders them to the carrier. § 2-509(1)(a). To the contrary, when the seller is required to deliver the goods to a particular destination, the seller bears the risk of loss until tender of delivery at the destination. § 2-509(1)(b).

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by RL

Whenever I have a package where the tracking is not showing no movement, and its been 2 weeks or more, I file a stolen mail complaint saying I suspect a USPS employee stole the package.

Package gets "found" real fast.

I'm still waiting on a package "out for delivery" from January 3. I'm going to try this. Thank you.

[Fballguy]

I've had to file 3 missing mail cases in the past year. One was in transit for over 30 days and I refunded only to have the item show up a couple days later.

The other two packages were both mailed on the same day, both accepted by the Houston PO on 4/20 both still in transit on 4/24 and both never heard from again. They were heading to different destinations...One about four hours away in Dallas, the other to New York. That to me seems like an obvious stolen mail situation.

Having to deal with the USPS for customer service issues is an absolute worst case scenario. Their customer service, if you can actually reach a human is an abomination, their website is a nightmare and quite frankly you never get the sense anyone gives a S#!t.

I didn't file a stolen mail case, I filed a missing mail case. In both cases, I received calls from the destination post office which was pointless, because I knew the packages never made it there. The problem was in Houston. Nothing was ever found and to this day, once a month I'll get an email from the USPS saying they've still found nothing and sorry for the inconvenience.

Next time I will file a stolen mail case and also try the Congressman.

It sounds like the participants here are both straight up guys. At this point, I'd just refund the money and if the cards show, pay again.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

I've had to file 3 missing mail cases in the past year. One was in transit for over 30 days and I refunded only to have the item show up a couple days later.

The other two packages were both mailed on the same day, both accepted by the Houston PO on 4/20 both still in transit on 4/24 and both never heard from again. They were heading to different destinations...One about four hours away in Dallas, the other to New York. That to me seems like an obvious stolen mail situation.

Having to deal with the USPS for customer service issues is an absolute worst case scenario. Their customer service, if you can actually reach a human is an abomination, their website is a nightmare and quite frankly you never get the sense anyone gives a S#!t.

I didn't file a stolen mail case, I filed a missing mail case. In both cases, I received calls from the destination post office which was pointless, because I knew the packages never made it there. The problem was in Houston. Nothing was ever found and to this day, once a month I'll get an email from the USPS saying they've still found nothing and sorry for the inconvenience.

Next time I will file a stolen mail case and also try the Congressman.

It sounds like the participants here are both straight up guys. At this point, I'd just refund the money and if the cards show, pay again.

+1

[kevinlenane]

Hi all - I'm the original poster here - we've sadly reached the end of a productive conversation so I'll provide a quick update here since I'm not sure what else to do and could use some advice. Here are the highlights:

-A month has gone by and I've not heard a word from the seller
-I got one update the morning after I posted this about a phone call into a post office - after that nothing
-other than the above communication I've not gotten a single proactive message about the issue (always at my request)
-the seller chose to not use insurance but rather used certified mail - I've seen a tracking number that proves something was sent somewhere and is sitting somewhere.
-the seller looked up an address of a property I own and has asked multiple times why the cards weren't sent to an address of a house I own that my mother in law lives in
- presumably this address was looked up on White Pages via my name
- I asked for a refund today finally after over two months and in return got another question about this address he looked up.
-finally he told me that he's researching whether he needs to refund me since he has proof he sent something in a piece of mail

I'm super discouraged by this experience - I would have preferred to not have the seller identified but he's named himself here on this thread. I feel like I've been super patient here but the lack of communication and the strange questions about this other property have totally dead-ended the conversation. Happy to have the seller correct/amend anything I've said here.

[MULLINS5]

It's been two months...

Refund the buyer. He seems like a stand-up guy and will likely send payment again if it is received, even though he's not required to.

If paid with PayPal I'd begin the process of a refund ASAP.

[HercDriver]

One thing about insurance, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's basically worthless for what we generally do. You have to have a receipt showing proof of the purchase price, otherwise you only get the $50 standard insurance. So if I bought a Ryan RC in a pack from Woolworth's back in 1968, I need to have the receipt, showing that I paid 20 cents for it, in order to be reimbursed that 20 cents. Not the thousands of dollars that it's worth...the USPS doesn't care about that. Maybe you can still get the $50, but I'm not sure who's entitled to it, the sender or the receiver. The whole thing sucks. As does the USPS.

[jjp3rd]

Originally Posted by HercDriver

One thing about insurance, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's basically worthless for what we generally do. You have to have a receipt showing proof of the purchase price, otherwise you only get the $50 standard insurance. So if I bought a Ryan RC in a pack from Woolworth's back in 1968, I need to have the receipt, showing that I paid 20 cents for it, in order to be reimbursed that 20 cents. Not the thousands of dollars that it's worth...the USPS doesn't care about that. Maybe you can still get the $50, but I'm not sure who's entitled to it, the sender or the receiver. The whole thing sucks. As does the USPS.

I have had one experience with insurance, and I found it to be worthless. Depending on cost of item, signature required or certified seems like a better option. A postal carrier friend recommends certified. Just my two cents.

Sorry to hear about this whole situation. It’s really hard on both parties when a piece of mail like we send gets lost. It’s natural for suspicions to arise, but I think by and large, we are all doing the right thing. I hope it works out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Scott L.]

Refund the guy his money. He’s been MORE than patient.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by HercDriver

One thing about insurance, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's basically worthless for what we generally do. You have to have a receipt showing proof of the purchase price, otherwise you only get the $50 standard insurance. So if I bought a Ryan RC in a pack from Woolworth's back in 1968, I need to have the receipt, showing that I paid 20 cents for it, in order to be reimbursed that 20 cents. Not the thousands of dollars that it's worth...the USPS doesn't care about that. Maybe you can still get the $50, but I'm not sure who's entitled to it, the sender or the receiver. The whole thing sucks. As does the USPS.

I never would have guessed this. Why do ebay card sellers even have insurance as a standard part of expensive purchases then? Could the value not be proven by the ebay/paypal "receipt"?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by kevinlenane

Hi all - I'm the original poster here - we've sadly reached the end of a productive conversation so I'll provide a quick update here since I'm not sure what else to do and could use some advice. Here are the highlights:

-A month has gone by and I've not heard a word from the seller
-I got one update the morning after I posted this about a phone call into a post office - after that nothing
-other than the above communication I've not gotten a single proactive message about the issue (always at my request)
-the seller chose to not use insurance but rather used certified mail - I've seen a tracking number that proves something was sent somewhere and is sitting somewhere.
-the seller looked up an address of a property I own and has asked multiple times why the cards weren't sent to an address of a house I own that my mother in law lives in
- presumably this address was looked up on White Pages via my name
- I asked for a refund today finally after over two months and in return got another question about this address he looked up.
-finally he told me that he's researching whether he needs to refund me since he has proof he sent something in a piece of mail

I'm super discouraged by this experience - I would have preferred to not have the seller identified but he's named himself here on this thread. I feel like I've been super patient here but the lack of communication and the strange questions about this other property have totally dead-ended the conversation. Happy to have the seller correct/amend anything I've said here.

Seller can't control the mail but they sure should issue a refund after this much time has passed.

The address thing is very weird. Hopefully they quit researching and refund.

[oldjudge]

First, insurance works if it is a recent transaction. If a card sold for $200 is insured for $200 and lost, all the insurer has to do is show proof of the transaction and the PO will pay. Second, unless insurance was discussed prior to completing the transaction the buyer has no basis to assume that the seller bears the cost of the insurance. If the buyer wanted the card insured he should have requested it and worked out who would pay for it then. Since no one brought up insurance I think the best solution is for Brian to refund half the card's cost and leave this as a learning lesson for both parties.

[Tyruscobb]

To the seller: Do not issue a refund unless the shipping terms were negotiated and the parties agreed that the seller incurred the risk until successfully delivered. Absent those terms, the seller satisfied his requirements under the contract when he delivered the card to the third-party shipper.

The seller has provided proof this occurred. The buyer had the shipping risk once the seller handed the card to the Postal Service. I’m optimistic this is the correct legal outcome. The parties certainly had the right to negotiate and change these terms and outline who bore the shipping risk. Apparently, this did not occur.

Why should a seller now eat the cost, if the contract did not include the shipping method, type, insurance, etc. Absent those terms negotiated and agreed upon, the seller satisfied the contract when the Postal Service took possession and the seller has provided proof he shipped the item.

This was not an eBay transaction or a regular PayPal one (Friends and Family I’m assuming). This was a transaction between two private individuals. It’s a tough lesson, but the correct outcome. The seller wins this dispute.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

To the seller: Do not issue a refund unless the shipping terms were negotiated and the parties agreed that the seller incurred the risk until successfully delivered. Absent those terms, the seller satisfied his requirements under the contract when he delivered the card to the third-party shipper.

The seller has provided proof this occurred. The buyer had the shipping risk once the seller handed the card to the Postal Service. I’m optimistic this is the correct legal outcome. The parties certainly had the right to negotiate and change these terms and outline who bore the shipping risk. Apparently, this did not occur.

Why should a seller now eat the cost, if the contract did not include the shipping method, type, insurance, etc. Absent those terms negotiated and agreed upon, the seller satisfied the contract when the Postal Service took possession and the seller has provided proof he shipped the item.

This was not an eBay transaction or a regular PayPal one (Friends and Family I’m assuming). This was a transaction between two private individuals. It’s a tough lesson, but the correct outcome. The seller wins this dispute.

I completely disagree.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Seller is responsible until package is delivered. Have you and the seller discussed a refund?

I agree.

[Scott L.]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I completely disagree.

Amen

[Tyruscobb]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I agree.

You can disagree all you want. Please provide some analysis - legal analysis, as to why you disagree please.

[nolemmings]

The buyer paid for a card to be delivered, not shipped. It was not delivered.

[Scott L.]

Never mind.

[Tyruscobb]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

The buyer paid for a card to be delivered, not shipped. It was not delivered.

I have not seen the parties’ emails containing the valid contract - the offer, acceptance, and consideration. However, I highly doubt the contract specified who bore the shipping risk. I’m assuming the invitation for an offer stated something to the effect, ‘card ABC, $100 net to me, shipped.’ This is what we almost always see on this board. Note the key word - shipped; not delivered.

The buyer then probably responded to the invitation and offered to purchase under those terms. He probably replied, ‘I’ll take it.’ The seller then accepted this offer and consideration was exchanged.

Again, the invitation to offer, which the buyer likely responded to, more than likely stated “shipped.” The seller then bore the cards’ risk from the moment immediately after the sale through the time he paid the postage and handed possession to the third-party carrier. At that time, the risk transferred to the buyer.

I’ll stand by my position.

[nolemmings]

This thread does serve a purpose for me, however. I will go on record here and state that I will not enter any transaction with this or any seller who takes the position that I as buyer bear the risk of loss on a package sent by certified mail, unless:
1) I expressly and affirmatively agree to accept that risk; and
2) the package is properly addressed and packaged.

Insurance just isn't that much for seller to factor into his price, and combined with signature confirmation makes certified mail unnecessary. For higher dollar items, I use registered mail.

[BeanTown]

Did the seller offer insurance? Did the seller say this is the priced "delivered" or "shipped" price? Im not sure why the seller would question some different address only after the package got mailed, its moot. The seller having the buyer pay him as Friends and Family put all the risk on the buyer (from Paypal perspective).

Was insurance even used on this deal as I thought priority mail offered like a maximum of 50.00. Im not sure what the dollar amount is, but there should be some accountability.

I have never been apart of a trade or sale where no insurance was involved. I think it's the responsibility on the seller to get the item there and if it gets lost, then the seller gets paid from the insurance claim (which then gets refunded back to the buyer).

Both parties are board members here so hopefully it gets resolved and lesson learned.

[oldjudge]

I agree with Tyrus that most people are very sloppy with their language when entering into a transaction. Insurance should always be discussed. Taking things a step further, people should think about how things are insured when they deal with auction houses. When you ship a consignment to an auction house is the auction house insuring the items? What is the value the items are insured for? Is this aggregate value broken down for each item? If you sent ten items to Auction A and it is agreed that they will be insured for say $50,000, and it turns out that one of the items is lost, what portion of that $50,000 is assigned to that lost item? Who determines that? If you ship a set of cards to an auction house and a few of the cards in the set are lost, how do you value them? Are you relying on the auction house’s insurance company to determine value, or are you relying on the auction house, or have you predetermined value? Most people don’t think these issues through and are upset when something happens and the results are not what they would like them to be.