Who Are The Hobby's Most Influential New Collectors

[Archive]

Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Rawn et al,

I'm just saying both can be done and you can still be considered a collector! Folks who purchase multiples and don't part with their dupes are hoarders !

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

I used the definition to disqualify all or most of Bruce's potential candidates ("Sorry, not a collector." "Sorry, not a collector"). It was merely a rhetorical ploy. Notice, I never actually said I subscribed to the definition.

There was an old time, traditional definition of collecting that said a collector couldn't sell anything he collected, and if you sold something you weren't a collector. They had dealers and auctioneers and resellers back them, and if you sold your items you were be one of those. They didn't say you couldn't sell anything, but that you couldn't do it and call yourself a collector.

In the Basil Rathbone Sherlock Holmes movie 'Dressed to Kill,' there is a music box collector who expresses this collecting credo. A woman offers to buy a rare music box from him. He tells her he's a collector so can't sell it no matter what the offer. The only downer is she takes out a gun, kills him and takes the box.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

[Archive]

Posted By: Tom Boblitt

the Bruces check back in on their thread. Normally they drop a napalm-like bomb thread and never check back in to comment......

Most people spending $2.5M on cards or sports memorabilia, if new, probably like to maintain anonymity. And, with the attorney/client-like environments of auction houses, it'll be a cold day when they tell other bidders or paparazzi-like latchers-on who the new 'whales' are. Ultimately, its none of no one's business until one of these said 'whales' decides to surface.......

And.....because they spend that many $$ on auctions doesn't necessarily mean that they know what they're doing!

[Archive]

Posted By: Craig W

In Bruce's defense for sharing knowledge, he is one of several credited with contributing to Volume I of Lew Lipset's "The Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards".

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob D.

I have little doubt that Bruce views Lew as an equal in the hobby hierarchy that Bruce has formulated in his head, hence the willingness (eagerness?) to share information.

[Archive]

Posted By: Tim

I agree with what a lot of others have said already. The true "influences" in this hobby are those that make their joy of collecting infectious through sharing of knowledge and images of thier personal collections.

There will always be a level of cards most collectors will never obtain. And from time to time that market will see spikes as multiple players with unlimited resources come into and out of play. Yet I don't think they influence the hobby as a whole. I'm not going to run out and start collecting a certain issue because two of them got into a bidding war and drove the price of a high grade through the roof.

The Net54 Pickup Threads are a huge influence if you ask me.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Holt

I see this is a long thread but I just got back from McDonalds...anyone have the Cliff notes version?

[Archive]

Posted By: Rick McQuillan

All of us here at the McQuillan Conglomerate fully endorse McDonald's. We all agree that the #1 value meal is per chance, the best meal at this fine establishment.

We also feel that anyone (or group/flock/pride/herd) should not be allowed to post on this forum unless they have met the $250K per year minimum.

Soon to come. America's most pathetic wantlist.

Rick

[Archive]

Posted By: boxingcardman

Bruces: money good
Everyone else: [snore]
Bruces: really, money good
Everyone else: show us some cards
Bruces: [silence; sound of crickets chirping]

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

[Archive]

Posted By: jeffdrum

have just returned from Mickey D's and was glad to see that no bank had seized my rotting little shack. I guess I will now retire to my basement and resume my pathetic life as a card freak!

[Archive]

Posted By: Andrew S.

There are probably more old time collectors with unbelievable vintage cards that have managed to keep a low profile. Rumor has it that the largest vintage collection is in Indiana and would fill a warehouse.

[Archive]

Posted By: J Levine

...for his insightful emails to me this afternoon. First he decides to make fun of my occupation (I guess Bruce never went to school and that education he did not get really helped him make his vast fortune). He does not know me but he assumed that I was a teacher because I could do nothing else. I want to make it clear Bruce that I had a double major in college...Literature and Physics. I abandoned both because I realized my true calling was teaching and that I would gain far more enjoyment out of that than becoming an Engineer or Lit. professor. So I changed my majors to Liberal Studies and never looked back. I love teaching and anybody who has ever met me (including people on this board) will vouch for my passion in teaching and baseball cards. People like you are very shortsighted.

Bruce's second email was a half hearted explanation on how he does not like people like me complaining and that everything boils down to winners and losers and that I am a loser. Bruce is correct here. I am a loser. I admit it. I lose far more than I win. ONLY IN COLLECTING TERMS. In life Bruce, I do not know whether you are a winner or a loser but I do know that I AM a winner.

I work hard every week. I spend 10 hours a day in a classroom and usually 2-3 hours at home working on school. Everyday. I work summer school with Special Education students and I tutor. I work my ass off and for you to say that I am a loser is just misguided and sad.

I also want to thank Bruce for setting the record straight on his wealth of knowledge. He makes sure to let me know that he has forgotten more than any other collector. Really. He just does not share it because he, like me, thinks knowledge is power and it gives him an advantage. He is correct there. I agree. I just do not think that knowledge in a vacuum is a good thing. I believe in sharing with friends (hey, maybe he just does not share because we are not his friends...or he has no collecting friends).

The funny thing that Bruce does not understand is that I have met collectors with better collections than Bruce (yes, even more monetary value than Bruce's) and they are some of the nicest people I know. I have actually held several of the cards Bruce purports to own and was allowed to hold them, examine them, and appreciate them by my friends. I know people with one of a kind item or rare items, myself included, that would scan and share if asked.
Hell, a couple of Nationals ago, I met a well-known board member and collector who was showing off a couple of cards to Leon at the time. Both he and Leon were introduced to me for the first time five minutes prior. I was not only able to look at the cards but hold them and just enjoy them for a couple of minutes knowing I would never own them. Now here is the funny thing, I know they would have even let you look at them and hold them, what I suspect though is that you would never let someone like me who you just met hold your cards. I know, I know, I am making an assumption about you again but from past history (never showing a single card you own, rarely helping people on the board with a question, etc.) I can make said assumption with pretty good authority. If I am wrong, great! I hope I am! I doubt I am but I can hope!

The only good things about Bruce's emails is that he said his second would be his (their) last. Thank God...

Bruce, I appreciate your honesty about money and can even understand your viewpoint. But when you come on a public board every few weeks and do nothing but espouse monetary values and add nothing to the "discussion of pre-WW2 cards" then I get annoyed (as I am sure others do). Bruce, I urge you to sit back and take a look at why you have a need, wait, a compulsion, to put down people who are not as wealthy as you are or do not subscribe to your collecting "values." I really think you might be happier if you just enjoyed the cards and not the plastic, money, resale value, etc. Again, I can hope.

Mod dudes...sorry...I am in a mood...but really, I came on here looking to see some updates on Ted's t206 stuff, Rhett sharing his Moonlight Graham find, etc.

Joshua

[Archive]

Posted By: Tim Newcomb

hear, hear! You have always had a great outlook on life and collecting. For all the assets that guy may have, he is clearly incapable of just enjoying them -- he has to stir up strife and try to make others feel bad about themselves-- it seems to be his only form of pleasure. Kind of sad, really.

[Archive]

Posted By: Tim

J Levine -

Thanks for teaching. It's a tough, underappreciated, underpaid job that due to those factors keeps many great people out of the profession. When in the end, the lack of great teachers effects us all.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

I'm not sure why anyone ever responds to Bruce's tripe anymore. He obviously knows his vintage baseball cards, however he rarely if ever shares his knowledge. He exhibits troll-like behavior in nearly every post he makes and he sends out hostile emails.

Bruce is going to die a lonesome man. He values cardboard over human relationships - this is not my opinion he has expressed this point on the forum as well as in an email to me. That's fine if that's how he wants to live, but I think perhaps there are some psychological issues here with insecurity. I believe that Bruce's self esteem is tied to money and cards. He may not be a big shot in life, but dammit he met some British card collector dude named Wharton once, and he was buying near mint/mint prewar cards 30 years ago before any of us were out of diapers.

He's entitled to his opinions, but that's just what they are - His. I personally feel sorry for the guy.

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

This thread is long enough that all new collectors mentioned at the start are now old. Sorry, all the candidates are no longer qualified, question is moot.

On the topic of categorizing, I have a six pound Toy Fox Terrier and a woman said, "He's very nice, but I'm not sure he's a dog."

[Archive]

Posted By: DD

"By the way those people who are behind all those Hollywood trends and
who have managed to figure out how to get every shallow thirteen year
old girl to buy certain kinds of t-shirts or shoes are multi-millionaires living
in Beverly Hills and Pacific Heights and spending their shallow lives
on private jets while hundreds of thousands of other Southern Californians
dine at McDonalds and watch the banks seize their homes."

It's nice to know that vintage collecting goes well with watching The Devil Wears Prada. Nice paraphrasing of the key soliloquy by Meryl Streep.

[Archive]

Posted By: John

Joshua,

Sorry you had to be on the end of the bloated whale mail circuit, wait till the hollow lawsuit threats come rolling into your inbox.

Winners and losers huh??

This from a guy who’s so called world headquarters of the mighty group equals a 2 bedroom apartment. He also specializes in merger & acquisitions however if you ever meet Bruce it’s clear to see the only thing he has acquired and or merged with recently is a double burger and large fry.

“Rich people are great, I want to talk about rich people blah...blah…blah” Translation…”I wish I had so much more and wasn’t so miserable with what I have.”

Funny thing is the guy in person is quite soft spoken and somewhat polite I guess when he gets behind the computer keyboard the other ugly side comes out.

I’d like to think it’s all a gag but I don’t think the guy’s that smart, shame really he has a very nice collection he could be a well respected collector, if he would just give this shtick a rest.

Funny thing is if Bruce spent half the time trying to make money as he does talking about other people’s money he would be the wealthiest man in the world….

[Archive]

Posted By: David Atkatz

"Remember 2% of the population in the US controls more than 20% of the wealth... we wonder what their
relative influence is on the US economy?"

You wanna see their influence?

Take a look around.

It's called "a recession."

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

I didn't intend to insult anyone or make anyone feel bad. I was just earlier stating my opinion that I find tiresome people who constantly judge cards only by their current market value. It's like judging the quality of music by the sales, and movies by the box office receipts. The latter is a particularly dubious measure of quality, as people buy the ticket before they've seen the movie. Most polls on quality involve people who've read (as opposed to not read) the book, eaten at the restaurant, attended the play or tried the new kitchen counter spray.

Obviously Bruce has cards we all agree are grade A, so I don't doubt that he measures cards by more than money.

[Archive]

Posted By: Fred C

Most influential "new" collector(s)? Does that mean anyone that has more money than brains and can buy any card they want is someone that is an influential collector? Having a large wallet in this hobby certainly doesn't hurt. Would that mean that someone that buys a T206 Wagner (because they can) is influential?

[Archive]

Posted By: Aaron M.

Leon, I seem to recall a few months ago when it came to light that Bruce was sending rather nasty (and unsolicited) little private e-mails to board members that you had reached an agreement with him that he would discontinue the practice or face banning.

I haven't checked in the board in awhile, but am I missing something?

[Archive]

Posted By: paulstratton

Forskind is the real loser here Joshua. Don't let his warped view of the world get to you.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Good post Bruce.

Don't be discouraged that you get attacked. I think part of it is that noone on this board knows. There is great knowledge on this board about the nuances of a particular set but in terms of the bigger issues of who is spending the bucks and driving the market today posters here don't know--nor do they care in many instances.

My own sense is that the biggest buyers of vintage cards continue to be Louchious and Spence and the ceo with a museum in Cali(name escapes me). Perhaps Scott Ireland as well. Believe Merkel and Fogel not nearly as active.

On a related topic, will be interesting to see who gets inducted into the HOF this week(I think).

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

"It's nice to know that vintage collecting goes well with watching The Devil Wears Prada. Nice paraphrasing of the key soliloquy by Meryl Streep."

David, the idea of the Bruces watching that film alone in their apartment is just creepy...

Josh, don't let the Bruces bother you; their deeply disturbed emails, while chilling, are nothing more than the musings of a broken toilet of a human being. The regulars here value your posts infinitely more than the Bruces' rantings. BTW, there is a great tool called "spam block". I deployed it against the Bruces after a similar run-in and haven't heard another peep.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

[Archive]

Posted By: MikeU

Personally, I think Bruce tends to ask very interesting questions, but not in a very receptive way. I find it interesting to know that there are (3) new whales in the pre-war market. There is no question that the original PSA post-war whales had great influence that trickled down to the overall market significantly. I also feel that the original PSA whales lack of activity in the post-war market is partially, if not greatly, related to the post-war down turn.

However, an auction company's defination of a new player can be very deceiving:

1. Someone that simply did not buy from that house before, but spent plenty of money elsewhere. Some examples would be a shift from post-war to pre-war or PSA to SGC. Depending on your preference, you auction house of choice will differ.
2. Someone that this group would not consider new, but has upped the ante with a particular auction house. Jim C. mentioned Scott Ireland, which could be a good example.
3. Maybe the Beckett/REA auction brought in a completely new person with disposible income and only previos familiarity with Beckett.

My hunch would be that the three noted players are not completley new, they are relatively well known and have moved up from small/mid-sized whales to full sized whales.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- this is a serious question for you:

If the market for high end material is fueled by Spence and Louchios, and I have a high end card that unfortunately they both have in equal or better condition, what happens? Does the card tank? (I know the answer, just want to hear your opinion). Thanks.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

edited comments to be gentler as I am a moderator and shouldn't always be so opinionated....suffice it to say this thread is rather comical

[Archive]

Posted By: Bruce Dorskind

The primary point that we were attempting to make in our initial and
subsequent posts is that the rare baseball card

(a) Has been remarkably resilient to what has been a rather unhealthy
economy

(b) the market for rare baseball cards (especially those trading over
$1000) is very thinly traded. Some collectors are deceived by the
number of bids in major auctions. Most individual lots,
especially at the $5000 plus level, rarely have more than 3 bidders

(c) Given (a) and (b) the entrance or exit of two or three collectors
severely impacts the market... and prices can move several hundred
percent in one direction or another.

The two years following the Sotheby's Copeland Auction saw many items
sell for 50-70% of the Sotheby Sale. Numerous other examples exist.

The Devil Wear Prada

For those all too worried about where we were viewed the movie...
we can tell you that we were invited by the CEO of Fox News to
attend a private screening with a plethora of media executives, entertainment
professionals and distinguished New Yorkers.



Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian

Bruces,

What noble cause was served by sending such rude emails to Mr. Levine?

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Bruce- even though we are polar opposites on how we view most things I do feel your just posted a,b and c are absolutely correct.....though if you have a 200k card there will be more than 3 bidders over 5k....The qty of bidders is different for different cards with respect to value in many cases....regards

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian

<<(c) Given (a) and (b) the entrance or exit of two or three collectors
severely impacts the market... and prices can move several hundred
percent in one direction or another.>>


Wrong.

One direction can move several hundred percent. The other direction can move no more than one hundred percent. Perhaps you should consult a high school math teacher to better understand this nuance?

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

You mean, I think, Gary Cypres in LA.

[Archive]

Posted By: boxingcardman

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Good point.....It would be quite an aberration for something to decrease more than 100% .

[Archive]

Posted By: John

What a read whilst waiting for the grill to heat up.

[Archive]

Posted By: J Levine

Thanks to everyone for their support. Have a pleasant Sunday.

Joshua

[Archive]

Posted By: MikeU

"The Devil Wear Prada

For those all too worried about where we were viewed the movie...
we can tell you that we were invited by the CEO of Fox News to
attend a private screening with a plethora of media executives, entertainment
professionals and distinguished New Yorkers."

Bruce,

Welcome to the minor leagues. Next time your in Michigan, get a hold of me and we can go get drunk and high with Kid Rock. That is how the "new players' roll my friend.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Josh, Bruce, and everyone else,

Chances are I have not met you personally, but would hope that if and when I do that I could find something good in all of you. Nearly everyone on this forum has exhibited more than one facet of their personality, be it in public or private missives. Let's say we put an end to the silliness exhibited in this thread and go back to more pleasant exchanges of conversation?

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

I think this board has had a much greater influence on the hobby than any individual or handful of individuals. The explosive growth in caramels cards (just an example close to my heart) and other tougher issues has evolved through growing knowledge about these issues, the frequent posting of images, and enthusiastic discussions. Before the internet and discussion boards like this one, it was difficult to get reliable knowledge or much exposure to some of what were less mainstream issues. Now, it is all on the table and it peaks people's interests. I was recently looking through an old Mastro catalog from 2000 and checking out the prices realized. It was amazing how cheap, by today's standards, many of the rarities went for. Part may be simple inflation, but the extraordinary rate of growth is due to increased knowledge and exposure to a large extent, in my opinion. That comes from boards like this one. If there are three new super-wealthy collectors out there, I would guess they are probably influenced by resources like this one.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve

<<(c) Given (a) and (b) the entrance or exit of two or three collectors
severely impacts the market... and prices can move several hundred
percent in one direction or another.>>


Wrong.

One direction can move several hundred percent. The other direction can move no more than one hundred percent. Perhaps you should consult a high school math teacher to better understand this nuance?



lol




Steve

[Archive]

Posted By: Alan

Jodi -
Don't take this thread too seriously. BTW - I hope I can meet you at the National. Let me know where you'll be.

[Archive]

Posted By: John

"For those all too worried about where we were viewed the movie...
we can tell you that we were invited by the CEO of Fox News to
attend a private screening with a plethora of media executives, entertainment
professionals and distinguished New Yorkers."


Sure you were Bruce...sure you were...

Assistant to Roger Ailes...

"Who should we invite this evening?"

Roger Ailes to assistant...

"Well not sure but we have to have Bruce Dorskind here he has America's toughest want list, call him and make sure he has the time tonight? I know how busy his schedule can fill up when he's on a baseball card chat room belittling people and pretending to be more powerful than Rupert Murdoch himself"

Assistant to Roger Ailes...

"How do I get a hold of him?"

Roger Ailes to assistant...

"Go into to my laptop and look under world headquarters, or you can go to the NET54 and post a high grade card he'll then email you and offer half. You can ask him about the screening then."

Nah just kidding Bruce I know you went you distinguished New Yorker you...must have been a long night I would imagine you had to park probably twice the amount of cars you normally do huh what's the CEO drive???

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Tough crowd.

[Archive]

Posted By: John

We really are a tough crowd Barry you’re right, but don’t worry I’m sure I’ll get an email later explaining the winners and losers theory.

Besides everyone knows you’re the only distinguished New Yorker, I told Lichtman once he was distinguished and he said “Who told you that I’ll kill em!”

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Distinguished? I spill my food all over the table when I eat. You call that distinguished?

[Archive]

Posted By: MikeU

"We really are a tough crowd Barry you’re right, but don’t worry I’m sure I’ll get an email later explaining the winners and losers theory.

Besides everyone knows you’re the only distinguished New Yorker, I told Lichtman once he was distinguished and he said “Who told you that I’ll kill em!”"

Lichtman is probably the guy who actually was invited to the "Devil Wears Prada" pre-showing. He invited Bruce to tag along for the shear enjoyment in him posting about in the future.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason L

Well, there's me, and these other two guys...my brother Earl, and my other brother Earl.

[Archive]

Posted By: John

I know all too well how Lichtman rolls!! LOL