Goldin Vault

[Schlesinj]

Just saw Goldin is offering a vault service with digital photo and instant access to selling if that is something you are interested in doing.

[Republicaninmass]

All in lovely Delaware!


16 1986 fleer Jordans in one auction. What a disservice to consignors. I remember auction houses refusing items they had copies of, now anything goes.


Good luck to them and the Red Sox

[Johnny630]

Come On Man !

[mrreality68]

Just got an email on the Goldin Vault. Need to research it to see what the pro's and con's are.
The only other I am aware of is PWCC on Ebay and have reservations about them

[Johnny630]

IMO I Avoid.

I don’t like having my cards tied up in someone else’s hands, ie Auction House it seems like these AH’s are trying to be a brokerage account that’s not something I’m comfortable with my cards being tied up in. Each major auction house wants to ensure that you only use them this is a way for them to have leverage over the competition. They don’t want you thinking we’ll try this one try that one no we want you here. Plus I don’t flip-flop in and out of my cards like I'm at a trading desk. That's all I see with these vault type situations list relist list relist in and out. Nah I'll pass

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

IMO I Avoid.

I don’t like having my cards tied up in someone else’s hands, ie Auction House it seems like these AH’s are trying to be a brokerage account that’s not something I’m comfortable with my cards being tied up in. Each major auction house wants to ensure that you only use them this is a way for them to have leverage over the competition. They don’t want you thinking we’ll try this one try that one no we want you here. Plus I don’t flip-flop in and out of my cards like I'm at a trading desk. That's all I see with these vault type situations list relist list relist in and out. Nah I'll pass

Very good points. Thanks
For the most part I rarely flip cards unless I can upgrade or get a key card I really want.

With that being said it never hurts to do my research to see the pro’s and con’s as it may work for myself or others.

[Qcards]

I think the vault idea is a valid selling option and I have considered using it but my major concern is that there is some type of lawsuit filed against the vault owner and that the assets would be frozen during a legal tie up or worse, the company claims bankruptcy and assets (cards) are frozen.

Any opinion on how valid these concerns are?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Qcards

I think the vault idea is a valid selling option and I have considered using it but my major concern is that there is some type of lawsuit filed against the vault owner and that the assets would be frozen during a legal tie up or worse, the company claims bankruptcy and assets (cards) are frozen.

Any opinion on how valid these concerns are?

Consider this very superficial and don't rely on it, but if I understand the vault concept the cards would not be Goldin's assets, the buyer would still own them and they wouldn't be subject to any action by Goldin's creditors. It's a "bailment" or something similar. But that would all be specified in the agreement.

Your basic Wikipedia definition:
Bailment is a legal relationship in common law, where the owner transfers physical possession of personal property ("chattel") for a time, but retains ownership. The owner who surrenders custody to a property is called the "bailor" and the individual who accepts the property is called a "bailee".[1] The bailee is the person who possesses the personal property in trust for the owner for a set time and for a precise reason and who delivers the property back to the owner when he or she has accomplished the purpose that was initially intended.

[chriskim]

After I won a Wagner from Goldin auction and asked them to store it in their vault (no sales tax right there!). After a wk, I want Goldin to ship the card back to me, do I need to pay sales tax?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by chriskim

After I won a Wagner from Goldin auction and asked them to store it in their vault (no sales tax right there!). After a wk, I want Goldin to ship the card back to me, do I need to pay sales tax?

I'm sure having your card in their vault is going to have stipulations and rules... possible early exit fees as well. I have no idea other then the Vault isn't just to benefit you, trust me they are doing it for a reason.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by chriskim

After I won a Wagner from Goldin auction and asked them to store it in their vault (no sales tax right there!). After a wk, I want Goldin to ship the card back to me, do I need to pay sales tax?

If you live in a state with sales/use tax, you most likely owe it, yes. The difference is it is now up to you to pay it/report it.

[morris_14226]

Yes you will need to pay sales tax. My guess would be they would charge the sales tax when they ship it to you.

If you buy high end cards (like a Wagner) you’re an idiot for trying to doge sales tax. States are just salivating to catch those folks. It’s low hanging fruit for them and you have zero defense (like gee I didn’t know I had to pay sales tax on the purchase).

The only way to avoid would be all cash and you’d have to keep the cash out of the banking system, so for a Wagner, you’d have to have like $200 grand in cash on hand. Once you put it someplace (bank) or sell itbe card and put the $ somewhere the governments (state and federal) are going to come asking how you came about $200 grand with no trace.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by morris_14226

Yes you will need to pay sales tax. My guess would be they would charge the sales tax when they ship it to you.

If you buy high end cards (like a Wagner) you’re an idiot for trying to doge sales tax. States are just salivating to catch those folks. It’s low hanging fruit for them and you have zero defense (like gee I didn’t know I had to pay sales tax on the purchase).

The only way to avoid would be all cash and you’d have to keep the cash out of the banking system, so for a Wagner, you’d have to have like $200 grand in cash on hand. Once you put it someplace (bank) or sell itbe card and put the $ somewhere the governments (state and federal) are going to come asking how you came about $200 grand with no trace.


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My guess is that once the card has been shipped to the vault, sales/use tax becomes the owner's responsibility. That's probably why people do this, so it isn't automatically collected.

[buymycards]

I must be missing something. Even if it goes to the vault, you purchased it, you own it, why would the location of the card matter? It seems like you will owe the sales tax whether it is stored under your mattress or whether it is stored in Goldin's vault.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by buymycards

I must be missing something. Even if it goes to the vault, you purchased it, you own it, why would the location of the card matter? It seems like you will owe the sales tax whether it is stored under your mattress or whether it is stored in Goldin's vault.

If you win something from Goldin and he ships to a state without sales tax, he doesn't have to collect the tax for the state at the time of sale. So, as I understand how this works, it then shifts responsibility to the buyer, and of course buyers just don't pay sales tax on internet transactions all the time, unless the seller collects it from them.

[chriskim]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you win something from Goldin and he ships to a state without sales tax, he doesn't have to collect the tax for the state at the time of sale. So, as I understand how this works, it then shifts responsibility to the buyer, and of course buyers just don't pay sales tax on internet transactions all the time, unless the seller collects it from them.

I always wonder whether auction houses really file those sales tax that they collected from buyers to IRS "completely"..... or they just end up become "jerked up" buyer's premium.

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you win something from Goldin and he ships to a state without sales tax, he doesn't have to collect the tax for the state at the time of sale. So, as I understand how this works, it then shifts responsibility to the buyer, and of course buyers just don't pay sales tax on internet transactions all the time, unless the seller collects it from them.

Thank you for clarifying that. I have the feeling that some states will catch on to that scenario and modify their rules. It seems like if I live in Wisconsin, if I purchase an item, I owe the tax and it doesn't matter where the item is shipped to.

[morris_14226]

It’s dependent on were Goldin ships the card. If they ship it to a state without state sales tax, (Texas say) they don’t have to collect state sales tax. If they do ship to a state with sales tax (NY say) they have to collect sales tax. My guess is Goldin’s physical vault is in a state with zero sales tax so when they ship it there they don’t collect sales tax. So when a vault holder sells the card, he just pays tax once on the proceeds of the sale.

You could do the same thing and get an address in a no tax state(Texas) and have the card shipped there.

Again-the issue is how you account for the cash on the sale. In NYS, they specifically ask you if you’ve earned any money outside the state. If you did-you have to claim it.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by morris_14226

It’s dependent on were Goldin ships the card. If they ship it to a state without state sales tax, (Texas say) they don’t have to collect state sales tax. If they do ship to a state with sales tax (NY say) they have to collect sales tax. My guess is Goldin’s physical vault is in a state with zero sales tax so when they ship it there they don’t collect sales tax. So when a vault holder sells the card, he just pays tax once on the proceeds of the sale.

You could do the same thing and get an address in a no tax state(Texas) and have the card shipped there.

Again-the issue is how you account for the cash on the sale. In NYS, they specifically ask you if you’ve earned any money outside the state. If you did-you have to claim it.


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Yes it's in Delaware.

[Tabe]

When PWCC came out with their vault, didn't a few folks say something along the lines of "if you leave the card in the vault long enough sales tax no longer applies"? Something like that?

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes it's in Delaware.

Very interesting and lots to think on.
I do not believe it is for me but good to know what is out there
Appreciate everyones feedback

Thanks

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Very interesting and lots to think on.
I do not believe it is for me but good to know what is out there
Appreciate everyones feedback

Thanks

IMO, if your intent is to let Goldin sell the card and you intend never to take possession of it, it makes some sense. If your intent is to avoid paying sales tax, not so good, although I should emphasize that I don't think Goldin is doing anything unlawful and nonpayment would be an issue only for the buyer.

[D. Bergin]

It's similar to a non-resident parking a boat in a state with no property tax. Sometimes the tax authorities will catch up to you..........and sometimes they won't.

[morris_14226]

My understanding would be that Goldin is responsible for collecting the appropriate state sales tax. They are the ones who pay each state. So for every shipment to say NY, they need a corresponding entry that shows the sales tax was collected and then the entry that it was paid to the appropriate state for the correct amount.

As to statue of limitations on tax fraud-that I’m not sure. Remember however when you are caught, you pay the fine plus the correct tax amount plus interest. That interest can really pile up over time.


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[Johnny630]

I can't see how this is geared towards collecting. It's geared towards investing, like I said earlier it's a brokerage account. You still have to pay taxes on the profit of your card when they send you a check. This doesn't seem like much fun to me, hell like one poster said above I might as well just buy Tesla Stock, lol.

What's Next are they going to have a Sports Card ETF or Mutual Fund? Good Grief lol.

I want the card in my collection as a long time piece to enjoy, In the long run that's what makes me smile, not so much the profit.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I can't see how this is geared towards collecting. It's geared towards investing, like I said earlier it's a brokerage account. You still have to pay taxes on the profit of your card when they send you a check. This doesn't seem like much fun to me, hell like one poster said above I might as well just buy Tesla Stock, lol.

What's Next are they going to have a Sports Card ETF or Mutual Fun? Good Grief lol.

I want the card in my collection as a long time piece to enjoy, In the long run that's what makes me smile, not so much the profit.

Agreed This is not right for me. I am more a collector with some flips for other cards or upgrades.
But for those that want to do it as an investment. It is an option for them and it must work for some people since PWCC does it and now Goldin is getting into the game.

[Exhibitman]

On the asset seizure question, in order to keep your items separate from Goldin's you would need to file a UCC1 financing statement with Delaware. This is true of anything you consign or deliver to anyone. If the UCC1 is filed it puts the world on notice that the items are yours. If not, the seizing party is entitled to lump them in with the assets of the holder.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

On the asset seizure question, in order to keep your items separate from Goldin's you would need to file a UCC1 financing statement with Delaware. This is true of anything you consign or deliver to anyone. If the UCC1 is filed it puts the world on notice that the items are yours. If not, the seizing party is entitled to lump them in with the assets of the holder.

Hey Adam,

I believe you are more on the legal side, whereas I am from the accounting side of things. I haven't really looked into it, but I kind of thought the original concept PWCC started with their "vault" in Oregon, and that Goldin now seems to be following with their "vault" in Delaware, was based on the fact that neither of those states had a sales tax. For anything bought online or through the mail, the seller would collect sales tax, if applicable, based on the mailing/shipping address where the buyer was receiving the item(s) purchased. So if a buyer decided to use either the PWCC or Goldin "vault", they could simply have their purchases shipped there and no sales tax would be supposedly charged. My understanding was that a purchaser didn't have to actually buy/acquire their item(s) through PWCC or Goldin to avail themselves of the respective "vaults" either, and therefore get around the sales tax, or so I thought. Someone setting up a "vault" with either PWCC or Goldin could for example win something off Ebay, and list their delivery address as either in Oregon or Delaware, depending on which "vault" service they used. Also, if I remember correctly, isn't there supposed to be some fee or rent being charged by PWCC and Goldin for the use of the "vaults" as well? If my assumptions and thinking are correct, doesn't that mean that someone using the "vault" at either location is therefore technically renting/leasing space for their items being stored there, somewhat similar to a safe deposit box at a bank, or a space/unit at a storage rental operation? And if that is true, doesn't that not give the owner of the item(s) in their respective "vault" some additional protection from claims by outside creditors should the bank or rental storage business fail? In other words, if you rent storage space from someone and keep an item in it, as opposed to consigning that same item to someone to sell/auction off for you, isn't the item you stored protected from being grabbed by an outside creditor of your landlord/lessor, as opposed to an item you consigned to someone being grabbed by an outside creditor of your consignee?

I've never heard of a single instance where someone who rented a safe deposit box or storage unit had to go to court or file a protective UCC claim to keep outside creditors of a bank or storage rental company away from items they legally own. Am I wrong about that?

Now if what I was previously saying is accurate, wouldn't a person who had an item(s) stored in either of these "vaults" that suddenly decided they wanted to sell something, and they contacted whomever controlled the "vault" it was stored in, PWCC or Goldin, and authorized them through a formal consignmment agreement to now sell that item for them, wouldn't that be tantamount to technically the same thing as that person going to their safe deposit box to remove an item and then giving it to some auction house on consignment to sell for them, thereby putting the item being consigned now at risk of seizure by a third party creditor of the auction house/consignee?

If there is such a difference between an item being stored or consigned, I would hope for the sake of people using these "vaults" that PWCC and Goldin have everything fully and properly documented so there is no doubt as to whether an item is being stored for an owner, or on consignment from an owner, and there is no doubt as to which is which. I would even be curious to find out if these "vaults" were physically separate from where they stored consignments and other items being handled by PWCC and Goldin, so as to further prove and validate the status of items in the "vaults".

Obviously such rules and laws vary state by state, but I would think these would be somewhat similar in Oregon and Delaware, the two states directly involved in these questions.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

On the asset seizure question, in order to keep your items separate from Goldin's you would need to file a UCC1 financing statement with Delaware. This is true of anything you consign or deliver to anyone. If the UCC1 is filed it puts the world on notice that the items are yours. If not, the seizing party is entitled to lump them in with the assets of the holder.

Why is simply shipping your cards to the vault a consignment that implicates UCC filing requirements? At least if you haven't instructed Goldin to sell them? And even if Goldin was so instructed, the UCC says it still isn't a consignment because Goldin is an auctioneer and is known to be selling the goods of others.

"UCC Section 9-
102(a)(20) defines a consignment as a
transaction in which a person delivers
goods to a merchant for purposes of sale,
and (a) the merchant deals in goods of that
kind under a name other than the name of
the person making delivery, is not an auctioneer
and is not generally known by its
creditors to be substantially engaged in
selling the goods of others"

In any case, while it is not my area, it seems to me at least some transactions in which the cards are shipped to Goldin would be more like a bailment in which there is no need to file a UCC-1.

"A bailment is a delivery of goods by the
owner, the bailor, to another party, the
bailee, for some express purpose. After fulfilling
this purpose, the bailee is obligated
to return the goods to the bailor or dispose
of the goods according to the bailor’s
instructions. As such, a bailment is an
entrustment under UCC Article 2-403(3).
The bailor has a right to the goods with
priority over the bailee in possession of the
goods and creditors of the bailee with a
security interest or lien in such goods. A
bailment is not a sale or consignment, and
is therefore not subject to the Article 9
UCC filling requirements and other rules."

I could be completely wrong but I'm not seeing the need to file a UCC-1 to keep those cards from Goldin's creditors?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I can't see how this is geared towards collecting. It's geared towards investing, like I said earlier it's a brokerage account. You still have to pay taxes on the profit of your card when they send you a check. This doesn't seem like much fun to me, hell like one poster said above I might as well just buy Tesla Stock, lol.

What's Next are they going to have a Sports Card ETF or Mutual Fund? Good Grief lol.

I want the card in my collection as a long time piece to enjoy, In the long run that's what makes me smile, not so much the profit.

Not necessarily geared for investors either. Maybe more for for flippers or dealers who can simply have their purchases sent to one of these "vaults", and then just tell them when to put things up for sale/auction. The idea of investing has the potential for holding on to things for quite a while in many cases.

I wonder if the two "vault" operators aren't also assuming a lot of people will use their services to simply get around paying sales taxes on their purchases, and then hope that since these individuals are so cost conscious that instead of asking for their items back at some point to maybe send out to a different seller/AH, they can save on the shipping costs and fuss and risks in handling and just have either PWCC or Goldin handle the subsequent sales/auctions for them. Basically these "vaults" could end up being built-in pipelines for additional consignments to both PWCC and Goldin.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by BobC

Y

Not necessarily geared for investors either. Maybe more for for flippers or dealers who can simply have their purchases sent to one of these "vaults", and then just tell them when to put things up for sale/auction. The idea of investing has the potential for holding on to things for quite a while in many cases.

I wonder if the two "vault" operators aren't also assuming a lot of people will use their services to simply get around paying sales taxes on their purchases, and then hope that since these individuals are so cost conscious that instead of asking for their items back at some point to maybe send out to a different seller/AH, they can save on the shipping costs and fuss and risks in handling and just have either PWCC or Goldin handle the subsequent sales/auctions for them. Basically these "vaults" could end up being built-in pipelines for additional consignments to both PWCC and Goldin.

That's 100% the business model, sales tax is not due until it is determined which state it's going to, same reason you see dozens of buy it now options immediately after a Heritage auction.

[Schlesinj]

Originally Posted by BobC

Not necessarily geared for investors either. Maybe more for for flippers or dealers who can simply have their purchases sent to one of these "vaults", and then just tell them when to put things up for sale/auction. The idea of investing has the potential for holding on to things for quite a while in many cases.

I wonder if the two "vault" operators aren't also assuming a lot of people will use their services to simply get around paying sales taxes on their purchases, and then hope that since these individuals are so cost conscious that instead of asking for their items back at some point to maybe send out to a different seller/AH, they can save on the shipping costs and fuss and risks in handling and just have either PWCC or Goldin handle the subsequent sales/auctions for them. Basically these "vaults" could end up being built-in pipelines for additional consignments to both PWCC and Goldin.

In addition as at some point this will lead to ongoing revenue vs cyclical revenue from one time sales of items. Based on what I briefly read the fees are free for a year or so but will kick in eventually.

[Exhibitman]

Banks are subject to separate and very specific regulations under Federal and state laws, so it is not analogous and does not carry the same risks. You are also granted specific possessory rights in the box itself; you aren't handing the contents to the bank and letting it do whatever with it. A separate warrant or court order is needed to enter the box. Leases are technically conveyances of an estate in land; the land becomes yours insofar as the authorities are concerned, which is why the cops need a separate warrant to enter each apartment. Storage lockers are much the same as leases; you are granted exclusive right to occupy the space, which is why the entry into and disposition of contents is highly controlled (see Storage Wars) and again, separate warrants needed.

AHs are just another business. Unlike the storage locker you are not granted an exclusive right to enter and use the space. You just hand over your stuff.