Leon has opinions just like the rest of us

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Posted By: Rob

Why do some people get on Leons case about his opinions? It seems he's got a dozen or so sponsors of this site to help support this forum, so who cares if his opinion as to who skydash should consign his new find is one of those sponsors? Maybe even its NOT one them!?!? Who cares, its his opinion. He's got an opinion just like we all do. We can post as much as Leon can, he shouldn't be punished just cuz he's the moderator. If he's got an opinion on who to consign an item (or items) to, let him voice it! I'm sure skydash has received 100s of opinions on who to consign the collection to, and Leon's opinion is 1 of them. Skydash will make up his own mind.

So much bickering and personal attacks ... let it go people. As Zinn said, the reason why many posters stay hidden is because of the personal stabs. Lets try to help each other out and not attack others for their opinions. If you collect high/low grade, slabbed/raw, 19th/20th century, commons/HOFers, choice of auction house its all GOOD!

I'm sure I'll get attacked for posting this!!!

Rob

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Posted By: peter chao

This is a slightly more interesting question...we all get personally attacked for our posts at times. Is there any reason why our fearless leader should be spared?

Peter C.

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Posted By: leon

No....I get it just like everyone.....and I expect it.....I am a board member just like everyone else. What I will say is that if I don't like someplace then I don't visit it....

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Posted By: jay behrens

It's because Leon is the moderator that he is held to a higher standard. Also, it's bad business form for him to be promoting one advertiser over another. His coziness with Matro has been noted mentioned, even by him. Leon has an agenda, plain and simple. Do what's best for lining Leon's pockets. Most of you just refuse to see it. To each their own.

This board could have been run just as effectively with donations from the people here on the forum and we wouldn't even be having half of these discussions. He could have pocked some of that money and given Brain some for his efforts. I'm all for that and I would have donated money every time.

Instead, Leon took the route of greed.

This used to be a forum run by collectors for collectors. This is no longer the case.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: leon

If you continue this diatribe (again) you will be banned......You have said what you want to....Everyone can make up their own mind about me and the board....again, if you don't like it then go away....

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Posted By: Rob

if Leon said "you should only consign items to the the auction houses that line my pocket" then he should be put in the shredder, rightfully so.

But if he says "my recommendation is that you consign this collection of cards to auction house xyz because they have alot of experience dealing with this type of product and history shows they can get you top dollar" then that sounds like its coming from a collector to me, and not a business man. We all know Leon is a collector. If Bill Gates owned this site then I'd have 2nd thoughts.

Rob

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Posted By: leon

I agree completely. I try to be neutral on my alliances with ALL of the advertisers. I have personal relationships with every one of them. I do my best to stay neutral between them. Again, everyone will think what they want to....History speaks for itself. For the record I have never received one cent from any auction house, including Mastro, for anything other than my own consignments, or the banners. Not one cent.... As far as discussions about the banners, as far as I can remember almost every one of them is brought up by Jay....so without him bringing the subject up there wouldn't be any discussions....gee....how ironic......

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Posted By: jay behrens

I wasn't looking to reopen debate on the banner topic. I know that $$$ blinds you and you will never change your mind. Just pointing out an option that you passed up that would have saved you a lot of headaches and discussions about what your motives are.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: DR

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Posted By: pas

This subject has been exhausted. Mastro has been ripped to shreds on this board with no intervention by Leon. That speaks volumes to the issue of his supposed bias and greed.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Yeah, Leon is so unbiased that he jumps into every Mastro thread and tries to spin in Mastro's favor. I got a chuckle from one of my recent emails I got today, it said Leon is just like another fellow Texan, Bush, all he does is lie and spin.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Maybe I'm the minority here but it's Leon's board he should be able to do whatever he wants with it. If he wants to sell ad space...good for him!

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Posted By: Alan Elefson

Jay-
There is a simple solution for the issue you keep badgering this board about. LEAVE! Start your own board "by collectors and for collectors,", otherwise, stick to posting about vintage cards. If you believe you can make a site that is more informative and draws more expert collectors, then by all means do it. I for one love this board and cannot believe the vitriol that is directed at Leon (largely by you). Please remember that the primary focus of this board is vintage cards, not your personal issues with the moderator. I believe Skydash is owed an apology for the highjacking of his thank you thread. That was completely uncalled for.
Alan Elefson
aelefson@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Chris Bland

When was the last time there was a thread about vintage cards that had 100+ posts? Jay may be at the center of this latest "controversy", but he certainly doesnt have a monopoly on it around here. If everyone who complained left, there would be a lot of quiet, post-free days on here.

If it doesnt involve bitchin and bickering, it gets buried...

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Posted By: barrysloate

We have this same dialogue going on on two threads simultaneously. We should consolidate to one.

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Posted By: jay behrens

This was a board started by collectors for collectors. Leon took and corrupted that premise of the board. You may like it here, but don't kid yourself if you don't think Leon doesn't have an agenda that he pushes and it all means more money for him if possible, at everyone's expense. Leon does what he needs to in order to maximize his profits from the board. He doesn't really care what you want if doesn't suit his goals or increase his bottom line.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: barrysloate

What is the agenda that Leon pushes?

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Posted By: pas

Barry: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

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Posted By: barrysloate

If you divide the total revenue this board generates by the number of hours Leon puts into it (including at 2:00 in the morning) he is earning the equivalent of a pancake chef at IHOP.

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Posted By: jay behrens

that and Mastro. I know I wouldn't advertise here. May not be a good business move but then I've always let principles get in the way of the way I've run the businesses I've owned.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: pas

Jay if you are so contemptuous of Leon, why DO you post? EDITED TO ADD Answers own question: to express contempt for Leon.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Barry, I live comfortably on that wage. Maybe not by Leon's or anyone else's standards, but it is very comfortable by mine. I just don't get to spend a lot of money on cards.

This isn't Leon's only source of income and no one forces him to spend the time here that he does. That's his choice.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jay- I understand you live modestly, and I respect that you have rejected material wealth to live the way you want to. In a lot of ways I am the same.

But I find it impossible to believe that Leon gets rich off this board. I think the banner ads are a logical way to produce some revenue to compensate him for his time. I have no problem with it, nor do most of the other posters.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

I'll second that thought of Barry's. If Leon's agenda is $$$$$, he's got a lot to learn as a businessman because the amount he takes in via the banner ads in relation to the hours he puts in as moderator is hardly what I would call an efficient use of his time.

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Posted By: peter chao

Leon,

Try something simple like putting moderator at the bottom of your posts.

From there most of us can figure out there may be some bias in your opinions.

Peter C.

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Posted By: jay behrens

If you look at his avatar, it says Forum Owner right under it

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: peter chao

Jay,

Then that should be enough of a warning to all of us that there may be some bias in his opinions. What else do you need?

Peter C.

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Posted By: jay behrens

What I want is the one thing that Leon won't do, get rid of the banner ads and go back to old system of donations from the forum members. Even I'll contribute that fund.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: barrysloate

What if hardly anybody donates? Maybe many would feel like that isn't something they would want to do. And how much should people donate? I don't get it- if a business is willing to purchase some advertising at a reasonable rate and get some great exposure, what's so bad about it? You've lost me.

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Posted By: Rich Klein

However calling my friends LIARS is not one of them.

Regards
Rich

Edited to remove non-needed comment

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Posted By: peter chao

Jay,

Relying on donations doesn't necessarily mean Net54 will get better.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I think what Jay is trying to say is that the removal of the banner ads will remove the appearance of conflicts of interest.

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Posted By: pas

I am guessing the overwhelming majority of people here have no objection to banner ads. As far as appearance of conflict of interest goes, this is a chatboard, Leon isn't a judge or investment adviser or anyone else as to whom people would care about his bias.

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Posted By: Kyle

Leon and I traded emails once discussing ad costs on the site. I could not believe how cheap it is. Considering the number of hits to the board per day, week and month, advertisers get a steal of a deal.

If I was accumulating a massive number of items for selling on eBay at one time, I would consider buying an ad on this site because it was so cheap... and I'm the type of person who actually has coupons to use at a grocery when asked for them. I picked up a dime off the ground last week and put it in my pocket.

Does Leon spend a lot of time on this board? Yes. Does the ad costs help compensate him for his time? Yes. Do we need someone to monitor the boards? Obviously, yes. Do I think Leon wishes he didn't have to "police" the boards so much? Yes. Does Leon put so much time and effort into the boards because he loves what it does for the hobby, for the relationships he's made, items he has trade/sold/bought for/from his collection (just like everyone else who uses the board)? Clearly, this is why Leon is here, yes.

-Kyle

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Posted By: rand brotman

WOW! what's the big friggin deal?? Jay its almost like you want to be banned..This is the # 1 Reason why Leon does not want private money..because people like you would send him 50 cents and think YOU have the right to say whatever you want to on this FREE board. Leon should 100% sell ad space, his job on here sucks! I have actually spent money (Sloate) on auctions i never visited before because of the ads. i know my purchase with Barry's auction probably paid for his annual rate. Jay some of your posts are informative, and i enjoy learning from you. Alot of your posts are sarcastic remarks with nothing of value. Please **** or get off the pot, either add something or go away!!! Leon can voice his opinion whenever he wants because this board is FREE, so whats the big deal?????

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Posted By: Joann

I've emailed some of these thoughts to Leon in the past, so I'm not saying anything he hasn't heard before.

First, I think Leon does an absolutely fantastic job running this board, and he knows that. And please understand that what I am about to say is theoretical, and in the context of the entire history of the board, plus its future including all future moderators. It is NOT about Leon in particular, as moderator at this specific time.


But the thing about the banner ads is this: What happens when the income from the ads starts to make a geniune difference in the annual household income of the moderator? To me, that is the bottom line question.

See, that could become a real problem, couldn't it? When this started it was to offset costs and give Brian and Leon the little bit extra back as thanks for their time and efforts. In that spirit, all is well.

But at some point, either for current moderators or future moderators, what if the revenue grew to the point that it started to really have an impact at home? How would that manifest itself on the operation of the board and to members? And keep in mind that even if ad rates are cheap now, any future moderator could probably change that and take what the market would bear.

-- First and foremost, moderating content of other people's posts to eliminate anything contrary to advertisers' interests would be a certainty. An advertiser complains about a post or thread, and the moderator can't really afford to lose that advertiser. The post/thread would be edited or deleted. No doubt.

-- How about the links sections? That is a great section and a helpful resource that I refer to frequently. Would links to competitors of advertisers disappear?

-- How about a moderator that would not or could not pass the board on to someone new , even if it was really needed by the board, because he or she had come to depend on the income from it?

-- What if a major advertiser wanted a permanent thread or area dedicated to its interests, spot ads, auction content, for sale, etc. Would they get it? If it meant the moderator would break even for the month?

-- What if a major advertiser wanted a valuable and frequent poster banned for reasons totally unrelated to the board?



I really do see serious downside to the process long-term. I think the reason many people don't is twofold: First, we all like Leon and appreciate the great job he is doing. Second, there hasn't been the slightest hint of any of the items above.

The only thing that has even been mentioned is Leon's loyal support of a few advertisers, Mastro in particular, and honestly I don't care if Leon supports or doesn't support someone for any or no reason. It's his opinion and his business. But the second that someone else - anyone else - is prevented from stating their own opinion would be a sad day. There has been no sign of that.

Personally, I don't think the banner ads make enough of a financial difference to Leon to affect his administration of the board. But what about the next person? Or the person after that?

Once this board has started down this road, it is inevitable - only a matter of time - until we get to a moderator for whom the ad money really makes a difference. At that point the soul and nature of this forum will change forever, and not for the better. It will be like the CU boards with threads disappearing routinely because the poster didn't toe the party line.

Sorry - but if anyone here doesn't think that will happen, I think that's pretty naive. It just doesn't seem like it because, for now, we have a board moderator that is not so beholden to the advertisers and the income that he will change the administration and tone of the forum.

Joann

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Posted By: Cobby33

I wouldn't pay a dime to post on this Board (no offense to anyone). So if the ads keep it running, sobeit.

Most everyone on here has some sort of an agenda. Those I don't like, I disregard.

If anyone thinks there's a conflict of interest anywhere, take the "conflicted one's" opinions at face value and assign it the weight you think it deserves.

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Posted By: pas

Respectfully, your doomsday scenario seems to assume all of us (or future generations of posters) would just accept bad behavior by a moderator and blithely go on posting. You forget the power of people to bring about change in response to things they don't like. No moderator is going to be able to dictatorially impose his will on a group of intelligent people, in my opinion. They would vote with their feet, as Lenin said. EDITED TO ADD Since CU is a forum sponsored by a single company, I don't see it as really analagous.

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Posted By: peter chao

Keeping the hobby "pure" is a great idea, except for the fact that the hobby hasn't been pure for a long, long time. Getting rid of banner ads doesn't even get into my top 20 for changes that need to be made in order for the hobby to be more "pure."

Peter C.

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Posted By: barrysloate

But Joann- none of what you say has happened yet. Right now everything is in balance. What might happen down the road is just speculation.

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Posted By: pas

Peter C., would it make your top 100? Not mine.

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Posted By: Jason Duncan

Even though I have a had a few minor disagreements with Leon here in the past, I think he does a pretty good job moderating. If it were not for him putting in his time this forum would not be where it is now. Also, even though I do see a little bit of power tripping at times, I think it is run really well. As far as Jay I really think he whines alot on different issues and has his own issues. I am not going to judge Jay otherwise because I have no idea what he has gone through or what dirty laundry life has given him to cause so much whimpering. From my observation I think Jay and Leon are probably both all around great guys. The fact is that things are not going to change anytime soon so drop the minor issues and move forward........and Jay, Bush is a moral upstanding individual which is more than I can say for BC.


Jason

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Posted By: Mark Evans

I consider Leon a friend (Hi, Leon) and, more important, a person of integrity. Having said that, I share the view that Leon should refrain from posting in controversial threads involving advertisers. I believe such a policy would make an outstanding board even better.

I also respect Leon's view on this matter and look forward to catching up for a beer or two at next year's National. Mark

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Posted By: Dave Haas

Jay, I'm fairly new to this forum but IMO this board is like cigarettes, alcohol, porn etc, if you don't like it, don't participate. I don't get it, you sound like you want to be banned.
Maybe you should hang out with Bruce. Leon is the moderator and can do as he feels fit.

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Posted By: peter chao

We've all been on the internet long enough to expect banner ads to be part of the scenery. It would only bother me if there were pop-up ads, because those ads can be a nuisance.

Peter C.

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Posted By: ItsOnlyGil

Certainly you can all see through this smoke screen.
The play is "the best defense is a good offense"
The problem is not the ads, the problem is alliance with Mastro.
And the cause of the problem is not Leon.
The root cause of the problem is Jay acting as an agent for REA.

Oh, I am sure that Mr.B. can truthfully contend that he has not yet been conmpensated.
However, he is garnering prime advertising for this client with every sentence.
And by maintaining the credibility pressure on the competition, almost singlehandedly,
He enhances his teams posture by the minute.
All we need now is the cheerleaders, the rhymes are obvious.


The above represents a theoretical scenario, offered in the same spirit as that of Joanne's.

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Posted By: Kenneth A. Cohen

I'm with Peter - it's part of the scenery. Frankly, I hadn't even noticed there were banner ads until all of the bitching started.

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Posted By: Ted Holden

Having been a member of the forum for a long time, but mostly as a lurker, I have finally had enough. I have refrained from becoming involved in any of the arguments before even though I had opinions. I have read the diatribes of many of you but Jay, you are the worst. Enough of your personal and political BS. This it not and never has been a matter of your right to an opinion or just putting in your 2 cents worth. It is your personal agenda to be a contrarian and poke insults at anybody that does not share your opinion. Buy yourself a soap box and go down to your city park and blabber all you want. Just get lost from here.

Leon, how long are you going to take his crap. PLEASE give him the big ole' Texas Boot.

Texas Ted

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Posted By: Kenneth A. Cohen

Yea Jay. I think Adrian Kronhauer was actually talking about you!

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

I'll second that thought by Peter S. If in fact a moderator becomes corrupted by the banner revenue, then Board members will have no problem noticing that and will vote with their mouses -- they'll go to another chatboard. Banner advertising revenue, due to the substantially lower member base, will then plummet and we'll be back to a moderator who moderates based on what he/she feels is right, uncontaminated by the $$$$$.