Old Judge.......How do you collect them?

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Posted By: Jeff Williams

For the past couple of months I have had a growing fascination with 19th century baseball cards. After doing a little research on availability and price, I have concluded that the old judge baseball card set is the most appealing. However, I am having a little trouble deciding how to collect this set! I realize that there are various ways to collect old judge's such as HOF's, teams, variations, etc.

My question to you is, how have you collected them? What resources have you used to gain knowledge on the set? What difficulties have you had?

Any information is appreciated!

Thanks in Advance
Jeff Williams

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Old threads on this board are the best way to learn.Id do alot of research first on the set,look at scans(for example on gfg.com they have tons of them) for subsets or teams you like and try to find something thats within your price range before you start buying.Basically dont go looking for things like spotted ties for $200 each
Dont get frustrated when you cant find certain players. I know some Old Judge collectors go years trying to find a certain card without any luck,especially a pose of a certain player. The price guide might say its a common but the people who collect the set hardcore know better in some cases

This site really is one of the best ways to learn about Old Judges,youre talking about 6+ years now of info by some of the most knowledgable collectors around all in one place if you have time to search and read thru it all.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Do not collect the set.
Collect the cards or collect the players or both.
Check out the differences between each year of issuance, select a (small) type set of one of each. Decide if you then want to expand the type set into the different colors and subtleties of coloration.
Study the baseball history - select players who pique your interest, such as those who got their start in the National Association, those with specific accomplishments (including 4 triples in a game, 400 more strikeouts than walks in a season, and many other astounding achievements), players who were active in four leagues, players who were members of St. Paul, UA - the shortest lived team (8 major league games) but most of the team is represented on OJ cards.
And much more -

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Learning a bit about the game certainly focused my attention on certain players and highlights. Read Nemec's books about 19th century baseball. Then seeing the cards of the players you've read about will bring the game to life for you.

There are a lot of "firsts" you could focus on (first no hitter, the first triple crown winner) as well as all-time records (most strike outs in a season, most losses in a season).

I've got almost all of the American Association's top-ten players in both pitching and fielding categories.

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Posted By: Fred C

Well first off, cross Larry Corcoran off your want list. There's a nut that lives on the east coast that collects this player very "aggressively". If you want a Corcoran card you might have to beg and pony up a lot of dough. With that said, lets move into what's fun and how to collect these little beauties.

Teams (pick a team that you like from that era, like Louisville, hahaha)

Stats (collect all the batting title winners - don't forget you get to pick from 3 leagues or collect all three league leaders)

History Kevin's suggestion to read a few books about the era (The Beer and Whiskey League is a great book on the American Association) may get you rocking in a fun direction.

HOF Hall of Fame players are always fun to collect, especially in that era. You could pick up the HOF that had the most wins in a season (Hoss Radbourn) or the HOF that had the highest season batting average (Hugh Duffy) along with all the other HOFers - I think that is going to cost a few bucks though.

Subsets - The Browns Champions for example. Barry had a set of those in the auction that closes tonight (20SEP07).

Just remember that the addiction to these cards is something that sneaks up on you. Once you're hooked, that's about it... there have been a few collectors that let go of their OJs. I think they may have been trying to collect every player (at least one pose) and started losing their grip on reality. Both used to be sane people but I'm not sure any more.

GOOD LUCK in this endeavor. Most people just indiscriminantly buy cards until they figure out a niche.

Welcome to the brotherhood of insanity... you're going to like this...

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Posted By: joe

Hi,
I would suggest collecting one team. That way the frustrations level will get very high as you see OJ after OJ in auctions or sales and never see on from your team.

Joe M Detroit OJ collector.

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: Joe_G.

I share the same sentiment as the others in that once OJ draws you in it's tough to shake. I started collecting Detroit OJs in the late 80's and find them far more collectable today with internet and increased auction exposure. I remember thinking one card of each player was a stretch but now I fully expect to complete all the poses (from 1887).

Most of the typical collectors define a subset that could be tied to a team, League, stats, HOF, or any # of other subsets. While quite dated, Lew Lipset's 19th Century Encyclopedia of Base Ball Cards is still a must. It will walk you through the 4 year (actually 5 year) issue of cards. From the 1886/87 Script cards (includes the NY Mets Spotted Ties), the Short Numbered cards (includes the Browns Champs), to the long numbered cards featuring all 8 National League teams and Brooklyn from the American Association. The arched (or sometimes in a box) 'Old Judge' Cigarette advertisement found on all previously mentioned cards disappeared for 1888 and subsequent year issues. 1888 saw a substantial expansion of teams and players covered. The same can be said for the 1889 cards. Then you have the 'NL' and 'PL' cards of 1890, the final year of issue. The pink tinting of some OJs first appeared during the 1889 issue (some, myself included, believe to be deliberate experiment by Goodwin & Co. - David Rudd had a great post on this a couple years back).

It's a great set and the cards seem to be as affordable now as they've been over the last 5 years. That is unless you stumble across one of the many rarities. With 520 players/managers/Umps represented, accounting for over 2400 different poses, the collecting possibilities are endless. From easy-to-find to one-of-a-kind unique cards, the Old Judge set offers it all.

You'll also find out rather quickly what other's collect. I always expect competition on the Detroit cards as I know several who collect just Detroit. Same can be said for Louisville, Brooklyn, Cleveland, etc. The competition might cost you a few bucks but can also serve to help you locate and fill some holes in your collection. I've made several trades with my fiercest competition and have been grateful.

Enjoy the ride.

Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: Jeff Williams

After reading all of your great post I have decided to collect these extraordinary cards by team. Now its down to which team I should collect.

How would you rank the teams in scarcity? How would you rank teams in price? Any teams have exciting or obscure stories behind them?

Once again, thanks for the information
Jeff Williams

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Posted By: john/z28jd

If i was just going by one team and had no prejudice towards one team over an other id probably go for the NY Giants since they are easy to find for the most part and you have alot of hall of famers like O'rourke,Connors,Welch,Ewing,Ward and interesting players like George Pino Legs Gore who scored more runs than games played,and Art Whitney who has a card with him and a dog,and John Roach who pitched just one major league game and unconfirmed sources have said he pitched with both hands in that game.If you go for all the poses of Giants players than that will keep you busy for awhile

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

Joe, when you complete all of the 1887 cards, how many cards will that be?

For me, I collect the OJs with the best images I can find. I have 66 now, including portraits, horizontals, two player cards, HOFers, etc. A little bit of everything. I much prefer an SGC 20 with a great photo than a PSA 6 which looks like the photo was taken during a snowstorm. A fascinating issue, now matter how you collect it.

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Posted By: Paul

I collect only the PCL players in PSA8 or higher. So far I haven't found any, which is quite a relief.

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Posted By: barrysloate

And it's technically not the PCL, since it wasn't organized yet. It was the California League. Minor distinction.

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Posted By: Paul

But, Barry, if I limit myself to PCL Old Judges then I'm guaranteed never to have to shell out a million dollars for one.

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Posted By: Fred C

A million dollars for a Cal League OJ... hmmm... You could get yourself a T206 Wagner and Plank for that much money... heck, you could have bought over 400 different OJ playerss for that much money and had enough to probably get the T206 Wagner...

You could collect OJ rookies... I think that would be the 1970 Topps card... ooops, wrong OJ...

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Posted By: Anonymous

Hello Bruce, the complete run of 1887 Detroit Wolverines numbers only 28. Of the 8 National League teams, Detroit had the fewest players & poses.

Jeff, the 1887 long numbered cards (leading "0" followed by 2 or 3 digit number) are among the more easily collectable in the series with each team having a common background (all from same photo shoot). Collecting in such a fashion can make for a neat looking subset with a common look or appearance to the card design and team back drop. For example, all the Detroit cards have a stadium back drop (as do the Chicago cards).

In terms of price, you may notice that Brooklyn (neat outdoor photos) and possibly Detroit carry a slight premium. I would 2nd New York as a good team to collect. A ton of poses, perhaps the easiest to find, and a great team to boot (1888 & '89 Champs).

Quick Run Down of the Teams represented in 1887 long numbered series:
(poses / players)
National League
Boston - 74 / 15
Chicago - 63 / 12
Detroit - 28 / 9
Indianapolis - 35 / 13
New York - 111 / 14
Philadelphia - 49 / 14
Pittsburgh - 49 / 14
Washington - 48 / 14

American Association
Brooklyn - 48 / 14

Grand Total of 505 poses amongst 117 players / managers. I would venture to guess that one card of each player from any team could be completed in one to two years if aggressive. Going after all the poses of any one team would probably take 5 - 10+ years, again if aggressive. Commons in "gradeable" condition run from $200 - $500+ while HOFers will run $750 - $2000+.

The same 8 National League teams from 1887 remained in the league for 1888. Goodwin re-issued many of the same poses while new ones were added from different photo shoots (different back drops) and so on. Lots of variations, errors, etc. The other American Association teams also joined the fray along with some minor league teams. In some cases, a player that happened to jump from a major league team to a minor league team could result in an obscure Old Judge team variation card.

Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: anthony

if $ isnt too much of an issue, (it is for me) i would suggest picking up any "good deal" or hard to find player and hold it for later to trade for your specific players/teams/subsets etc...with so many options in the oj's, you may change your mind a few times before you finally decide what to collect

another thing, if and when you find one you like "NOT" on ebay, dont take too long to think about buying it, because it will be gone before you know it...it happened to me 19,210 times.

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Posted By: Jeff Williams

Old Judge Browns Champs!

Yesterday I won my first OJ and it's a part of the Browns Champs subset. Actually, I think I got a pretty good deal on the card due to the clarity of the photo. This set seems to be a great way of collecting OJ's because its a small set with great historical significance. Here is the link to the auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=110170912591&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=001

On a side note, I was reading my copeland catalog today and saw an example of the OJ Cap Anson (Uniform) card. How rare is this card? How often has it been auctioned? What did it sell for?

Thanks again
Jeff Williams

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Posted By: Kramer

Jeff...

To save time you could always just purchase my OLD JUDGE set consisting of 67 cards all graded by PSA... its currently 12.86% complete and consists of multiple HOFers, Browns Champs, etc.

You can view them at Kramer's 1887 Collection

I'm always open to offers on the entire lot! Unfortunately it will cost you around $32K for the lot.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

This is my favorite set by far. I collected it many differant ways over the years. (That is what makes it great!) I started by collecting the Des Monies players only and that lasted only a few months as I found there where many very hard to find cards for completion. With the help of Jay Miller and many other great collectors I started a SGC graded player set. I worked on this set for 3 years and was able to buy some of the hard to find cards but the set started to really slow down at around 425, not to mention the cost was getting higher and higher as I was chasing the near to impossable cards. I was lucky enough that when I did sell my set I was able to sell it to a collector who let me contiune to grow his set veiw the cards when ever needed a fix. Now he is over 1500 differant if you count poses and variations. I personally think this set is one of the most historical and fun sets out there. Good luck with your new endevor. By the way I LOVE the Brownies!

Trevor