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#1
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: leon
With much thought given to it I have taken the advice of so many respected board members and banned Jay Behrens, at least for the time being. I am sort of sorry it had to come to this but at the end of the day I do have to listen to the board members. The welfare of the board depends on these types of decisions. As Joann so eloquently put it I really do feel it is OUR board and not my board. I have gotten so many emails, it's not even close, about doing this. After many chances given, and the continued rants, I feel I was losing credibility with the board. Jay and Scott have their own board where they can do what they want. I will not let 1-2 bad apples spoil a good thing.. Thanks again for the support from so many board members. It's truly humbling. I know a few will disagree with this decision but I have spoken to enough people whom I respect, and got their input, that I feel this is not only warranted, but needed... ...Now we can get back to cards...best regards |
#2
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: barrysloate
I guess the other board will be pretty busy over the next few days. |
#3
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: T206Collector
...try not to lose too much sleep over these kinds of decisions. It is not a democracy -- and, in any event, it is not a communist state of equal access with no profiteering allowed. |
#4
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Jason L
Life is far far too short to be wasting time dealing with incessantly negative behavior. |
#5
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Ed McCollum
cracked out of their shell. |
#6
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Jimmy
I tried staying away as much as I could and the situation got real bad. When I started using this website I was hoping to use this as a resource for my new website - maybe a banner advertising in the near future, posting items in the B/S/T. I am a bit quiet when it comes to most of the trends as many become get to personal and way off topic. Let’s face it, I am glued to this hobby and will continue to support this board, but this is a hobby and we are talking about baseball cards. There are not too many places we can go and find the resources - both for collectors and advertisers. I myself still hope to advertise with Leon, because I think he runs this website very well and gives options to everyone in the hobby. Many of us are collectors first, but we are all dealers in some way or another because of our expertise whether we are doing eBay auctions, shows, buying and trading with one another. If I had a lot of money, sure I would be doing less dealing and more collecting, but the hobby is in my thoughts all the time. I am always trying to learn more and help others along the way. Everyone has the right to voice their opinions, but sometimes it just goes in the wrong direction. |
#7
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
I've avoided getting into this fray....and at some point I lost track, but was Dorskind also banned....or, |
#8
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: RIch Klein
Like I said; being called a liar is a severe personal attack. At that point, Jay either needed to apologize or leave. HE made the choice -- |
#9
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Brian McQueen
Just wanted to add a small point of my own to all of this. You know, it sucks when Leon and I receive emails or see posts that read along the lines of “…you know, I’d post a lot more if it wasn’t for all the fighting and bickering…”. I think even Jimmy is saying that to a degree in his post above. This is horrible for us to hear because so many of the people that I’ve heard this from in the past are individuals who have contributed a lot to this board in the past and no longer feel comfortable doing so. I think the community as a whole loses out when people with knowledge and true passion for this hobby no longer are interested in posting their own beliefs, experiences and insight. I see really solid questions asked all the time that are really great questions, yet they fall straight to the second page right away because people with the knowledge or answer to that question no longer feel like contributing. Like Chris was saying in another thread, the “popular” threads on this board always seem to be of the “train wreck variety” where a bunch of fighting breaks out. These are the ones constantly bumped to the top (until they’re locked) and the ones that go over 100 for a post count. How often do you see us breaking the 100-post mark without a huge fight going on inside the thread? Seems to me that it happens very seldom nowadays. |
#10
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: peter chao
At first, I felt some reservations because Jay B. shared the death of his babies with us...but it is clear that he was the same way before the miscarriage. So at least a temporary ban is a good idea. |
#11
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Joseph
God help us all! |
#12
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: leon
Bruce Dorskind has not been banned. He has promised to stop sending private emails to folks unless he is buying, selling, or trading. At least this stuff can be left on the board. I think, at this point, that was enough. If he doesn't keep his word then we will deal with it at that time....I do feel I have a responsiblity to protect board members from abusive people when it originates from board issues. take care... |
#13
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Dan Bretta
If there are people out there who are too timid or intimidated to post because of something Jay B, Jim C or Bruce said then they probably should just disconnect from the internet or stay away from chatboards in general. I have no problem with Leon banning whoever he wants, but I expect all those folks who emailed Leon and are intimidated by Jay to start coming out of the woodwork to post now. It's now up to these lurkers to actually contribute something to the board other than the occasional drive by hit. |
#14
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: barrysloate
As Brian and others have said (and I think that was Brian's longest and most eloquent post ) this board should always be a civil place where people can come to visit. As Leon can corroborate with the daily hits, there are many people looking at the board each day who do not post. Some of them may be new to the hobby, and as such feel insecure about posting. But they may also be afraid to do so, because they see how easily someone can be attacked. They may feel that if they post something stupid, they will become the butt of somebody's sarcasm and nastiness. |
#15
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Well Barry now that Jay has been banned and Bruce has been warned I'm guessing the discourse with all those timid lurkers will skyrocket the conversation around here. All those who complained to Leon should be inundating this messageboard with questions and their knowledge. |
#16
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: leon
I want to point out how I feel with respect to something you said. I feel my biggest obligation is to the forum members and then somewhere after that the advertisers. The banners could go and it wouldn't hurt me too much, believe it or not. If too many board members left I would hate it. Otherwise I agree with everything you said. |
#17
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Dave F
Well hopefully it does bring out some more folks to add input or questions. It is amazing to think of all the people that do come across the board daily and you have maybe what 20 people that might post on a daily basis? |
#18
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: peter chao
Actually, I've noticed that you have been posting less on the main board recently. Any ideas on making posting more enjoyable for lurkers? |
#19
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Todd Schultz
please allow me to post my dissent. I think it was a bad idea. |
#20
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Paul S
Bruce's posts were (and no doubt will continue to be) overinflated pomp, often interesting, but were never name-calling or threatening. I think most people lived with that and make fun of it as well and that was that. (Jay was of course a different set of circumstances.) Where I have a problem with Bruce was his garnering of our emails and their tone to the recipients. I happened to get a chance to read some and, although the ones I saw were not literally threatening, they could easily be interpreted as downright crazed and spooky. This seems to have occured over a protracted period of time. I hope the idea of that doesn't keep others way from here. All I can say is, Leon, if I ever have to appear in court I hope you are my judge! |
#21
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: leon
Two questions. |
#22
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Tom Boblitt
you had to do that but I think you gave him every chance....again..... |
#23
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Joann
Leon - thanks for the follow up comment to the conversation about your duty to advertisers. Frankly, I thought it was a perfect example of what I talked about at length yesterday - the tiny little things that start linking advertisers' interests to board policies. |
#24
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Dan Bretta
I can understand why Jay was banned....I too got tired of the banner ad discussion and I don't have a problem with it. I also understand Jay's point about biases, but hey it's Leon's board and Leon's the boss....over on Jay and Scott's page they are the boss. This ain't a democracy. |
#25
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: barrysloate
Dan- there's nothing wrong with a good controversial thread, with people exchanging heated opinions about something going on in the hobby. I think we all find them interesting and many of us participate in them. |
#26
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Dan Bretta
I agree Barry. Jerry Rucker came straight out of "LURKER" mode to make a personal attack on Jay and it went unnoticed. |
#27
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: peter chao
Barry, Dan |
#28
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Peter, I assure you what Jerry R wrote was a personal attack worthy of Bruce Dorskind. I've also seen lots of personal attacks on you that have gone completely ignored. |
#29
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Marc S.
Can you imagine what would happen in corporate America if every single employee was allowed to openly, in a public forum, critique and micro-manage every decision that mangement made? |
#30
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: anthony
personal dealings with jay have always been fine with me eventhough it was just a handful, but i do believe he was trying to "call leon's bluff" on this to see if leon would back down and allow him to stay. well, jay got what i think he wanted. i dont think the board will suffer without him and maybe someday he can come back under certain circumstances. like someone said in the other thread, he does have some good input regarding cards. |
#31
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: peter chao
Dan, |
#32
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: ErlandStevens
I will certainly miss Jay's input on the board. Jay knows his stuff concerning cards (and many other things as well). I'd vote for a temporary ban, but bringing Jay back probably will result in another ban. Jay and Leon disagree on the ads. Neither is going to change his mind and I doubt Jay would let the issue slide if he returns. I don't fault Leon (who along with the others who run the board deserve all the praise they get) for the decision to ban Jay, but I'm not glad he's gone. It's just an unfortunate situation that doesn't have a clean solution. |
#33
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Joann
Not trying to hijack the thread, but something Peter C just posted has me burning with curiosity. |
#34
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: barrysloate
Peter- you have been attacked many times on this board and to your credit you have never let it get you down. I admire that. |
#35
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Yeah I do not understand the attacks against you Barry from Joe P. I didn't even realize he had been banned though. I also did not see any warnings from Leon when Joe was incessantly attacking you, although I may have missed them or he may have done it through email. I just think the "personal attack" issue needs to be meted out fairly if it's going to be used as a reason for banning someone. I expect Mr. Rucker will be getting a warning from Leon - even though he apparently has gone back and deleted the attack. Doesn't change the fact that many of us saw it and now have someone else to add to the list of people not to do business with. |
#36
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Bob Pomilla
Sad that it came to this, because Jay has an impressive wealth of knowledge about prewar cards and contributed more than most. However, there are two questions I have to ask myself. Firstly, was Jay's repeated badgering of Leon something I wanted to see on a continuing basis. Answer is no. And two, did I believe Jay was ever going to let this go? Given Jay's admission and I don't recall the exact wording, but it was along the lines of wanting to stick around the board to break Leon's chops, it wasn't likely that he was going to give this harassment a rest anytime soon. |
#37
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: peter chao
Joanne, |
#38
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Paul S
I thought Marc S had a good point and I hope he doesn't mind me launching from it. Society has expected norms of social conduct in any given situation/place, and people who fall too far out of its expectations for too long a time are usually fired at jobs, shunned by their friends, or generally ostracized (no, not changed into a giant flightless bird with a long neck). Hopefully before that happens they are given warnings by their boss, or a friend tells them how they feel about their actions, etc. In this case it happens to be an online forum. Same type of rules apply. A person can't be around here and continually complain about the place and not know what to expect. Jay is smart enough to realize that. In this case Jay had an option and choose what he did. I think he did it to himself. In Bruce's case he ("they") chose to cease and desist. |
#39
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
Jay B went "bananas" on the "Banner" kick....but, my take on what really was bugging Jay, and was the |
#40
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Let me be clear about this - Jay got what he deserved - and I do believe he was wanting to be banned. He was warned repeatedly and Leon gave him more leeway than I think he's ever given anyone. With that said I also think Jay had some good points about the appearance of a bias with regards to advertisers. It's really no sweat to me though because I don't really care one way or another....but with regard to personal attacks we've seen people get away with plenty here and the moderating of that seems a bit uneven to me. |
#41
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Todd Schultz
1. Why do I think it was a bad idea? Well, first and foremost, I abhor censorship. |
#42
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: JK
I have, to this point, stayed out of this mess. I will first state that I agree with Todd that banning Jay was a bad idea - though in all honesty, I dont believe that his contributions will be missed because, quite frankly, he hasn't really attempted to contribute positively in some time. My problem with the banning is that Jay's attacks were directed at Leon and Leon decided to ban Jay simply because he was tired of it. Jay has an opinion and while its old and tired, his "attacks" weren't all that insulting. On the other hand, Ive seen others attacked - I mean truly attacked and insulted - without so much as a "tone it down" from any of the mods. This reeks of a double standard. A post above made an analogy to the workplace - well, certainly management would not stand for constant insubordination directed toward management. However, nor would management allow employees to go about attacking other non-management employees with abandon. So if you are going to stop one, be consistent and stop the others. |
#43
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: dennis
"Arrogance of Affluence" in some |
#44
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: barrysloate
I responded to Todd in the other thread and asked him a question and now it's locked. |
#45
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: rand
Thanks to Leon for putting an end to the misery. Jay's words were way out of line and he pushed, pushed, and pushed until he finally got tossed. Todd its easy for you to judge Leon, but i guarantee if this was your board and you were attacked endlessly you would do the same thing. bottom line, the board is free, if people want to act poorly, they can go else where. when one person leaves another will take their place. Great Job Leon, Finally. |
#46
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Tim Newcomb
Unfortunately, given my genuinely high regard for Leon, I have to agree that there appears to be a double standard here. I'm sure if I were Leon, Jay would be on my last nerve, and I really do sympathize. But no one has provided any evidence that Jay was going around making personal threats, attempting to terrorize people, as Dorskind clearly has been doing via email. |
#47
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: leon
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#48
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Joann
Wow. Josh and Tim and Todd - I wish I had even a shred of your eloquence. If I did I certainly wouldn't be struggling so much with the school assignment I'm working on this week! Dang. And it's not just that I agree with the substance of your comments. It's that they are so well crafted, constructed and presented. |
#49
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Tim Newcomb
I do disagree with this one on principle, but I agree that Leon has taken an awful lot from Jay, that Jay did seem to be repeating himself rather than adding to the debate, and that someone has to manage us animals so we don't maul each other too badly. |
#50
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Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
Well colleagues, I have no doubt that Leon speaks the truth when he states that he has acted in accordance with the wishes of the majority of the board. I hope that you are up to it; because from my perspective, I am watching the expertise of this board one by one walking out the door. |
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