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#1
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Anonymous
Kevin Saucier |
#2
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: jay wolt
Will then...Would SGC re-grade it and list |
#3
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Joe D.
I hate to throw doubt on Kevin's opinion..... |
#4
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Sure didn't (and still doesn't) look like an "underprint" to me. |
#5
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Matt
http://cgi.ebay.com/T206-SCHLEI-WITH-RARE-UNITED-CIGARS-AD-BACK_W0QQitemZ150293183591 |
#6
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Brian
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#7
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Steve
10k lol |
#8
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: john/z28jd
Even if it is an "underprint" someone said it best last week when they said,who cares,what does United Cigars have to do with t206's. If it is a "underprint" then technically its just a low grade t206 that was printed on used paper due to poor quality control at the factory. Leon has a card with about 10 "underprints" all having something to do with t206's (post a scan here Leon so we can see the messy card). If the united cigars card,which rightfully didnt get a bid at $1500 is now worth $10k then Leon's card is now worth close to $100k,Luckey him. |
#9
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Anonymous
Is it just me that sees the Croft candy logo similarity? |
#10
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: leon
For my money I would still like to get a printing expert's opinion, no offense to Kevin. The card had to have paper loss on it when the "stamp" was put onto it. Personally, I think it is worth even less with the cigar stamp...maybe $5-$10.....but only as a filler. Now, if we could get some fried chicken thrown in then the price would maybe go up to about $2000.00.....but only if it's extra crispy. Yummy!! |
#11
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: jamie
you may not like his asking price but steve should be applauded for consulting a recognized and respected expert and getting a second opinion. there aren't a lot of sellers out there that listen to dissenting voices on their product and even fewer who would sink their own coin into validating their item. |
#12
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Steve Murray
so that there be no confusion the card is not mine. Scott Elkins is the seller |
#13
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: DD
Jamie, |
#14
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: ali_lapoint
i respect kevin's opinion. but i'm having a hard time understanding the details of how this could have happened. to anyone's knowledge, did united cigars ever produce a set of cards in which that print appears on the back of? if so, i'm still having trouble understanding the placement of the print. why would it be there? also, if united did produce a set of trading cards of some kind, was it produced in the same factory that the sweet caporal cards were printed? these are fundamental questions that need to be answered before kevin's opinion can be taken into consideration. |
#15
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
DD, you deserve kudos for "silence your rooster." Good stuff. |
#16
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Steve Murray
"And Kevin -- is it true you were spotted about town with a few scantily-cland roosters?" |
#17
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: DD
In all seriousness, it's amazing to me how some guy at a factory about 100 years ago most likely, inadvertently places that stamp on the card, and now a ridiculous price is on it. |
#18
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Steve, you thought wrong. I think that post is from Kevin; I just disagree. |
#19
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: MVSNYC
"Before the war, i used to be a Saucier down in San Antone...I'm sorry, i just get excited about my food." |
#20
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Rob D.
Most surprising to me: There's been a thread mentioning Kevin on the board now for more than 3 hours, and Jim Crandell hasn't posted yet. |
#21
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
I'm guessing Jim has bigger fish to fry these days than pimping Kevin out. By the way, how's Kevin's company doing? (This is not a wiseass comment, I just recall about a year ago that he was starting a venture that would grade the third party graders' cards) |
#22
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: DD
Jeff, |
#23
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: James Gallo
I have no cock in this fight but I do wonder... |
#24
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Red
The ink from the stamp doesn't look old. For it to be an understamp then the ink would have to be as old as the T206 and have properties consistent of ink from 1910. It doesn't look like it was printed on. The blotting on the right side looks like excess pressure from a stamp that was pressed down harder to also leave an impression in the recessed area where the paper was removed. The stamp is sharper there due to less pressure. The red ink is going to look it's floating on top of the stamp because the cardboard it's on top of is now stained a different color from the ink from the stamp. The watery stamp ink looks like it isn't the type that's going to adhere to the surface of the printed red ink. The stamp ink looks like it just flowed right through the red, got sucked up by the cardboard like a sponge, and turned the cardboard a different color. When the cardboard is stained a different color it's natural for the red ink to look like it's sitting on top of whatever color cardboard is under it. A T206 stained with something else will look the same way. |
#25
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Jim VB
<<...even if they could the cost would likely be greater then the value of the card.>> |
#26
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: boxingcardman
See image #14 |
#27
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: David Smith
I still say the United Cigars logo is an optical illusion. I mean, if the black ink was put on thick enough to vertically leach into the lower layers of the card then WHY didn't it ALSO spread out horizontally?? |
#28
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Anthony S.
I think it's a hologram. |
#29
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Jim VB
We know that, right now, there is one person who thinks this is a $10,000 card. All he has to do is convince one (with the BIN format) or two (in an auction) other people that he's correct. |
#30
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Dave Haas
Why hasn't Kevin commented on this post and further explain his theory on why it is an underprint? Hello Kevin. |
#31
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Jon Canfield
I think the argument would be settled if we just tore away a little area next to the paperloss (where is no current paperloss) and see if the United Cigars stamp is underneath this "fresh" paperloss. |
#32
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: ali_lapoint
i'd like to see kevin's response as well. i respect his opinion and his work with alterations but i just don't see how any rational person, much less an expert, could conclude that the stamp is an underprint and penetrates so deep into the card that it remains after paper loss. if it is a true underprint some portion of it would have been removed when the paper was lost. i know of no such ink that will penetrate so deeply but not appear visible on the front of the card. |
#33
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
So the $5 card went from $1500 to 10K, huh? Normally I'd be surprised at the shamlessness of Elkins but when you consider that he lives in a trailer and molests poultry I suppose nothing is beneath him. Even this. |
#34
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Steve
Has there been any images of this card in the SGC holder? |
#35
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Al C.risafulli
It's an interesting card, for sure. |
#36
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Shawn Chambers
Count me as a total disbeliever. You can go to any store and buy a bottle of the blackest india ink and a stamper of Bugs Bunny and stamp any paper item you want and I fail to believe the ink will penetrate to any real depth and still retain such clarity after the topmost layer is pulled away. |
#37
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: ali_lapoint
the card is slabbed by sgc who labeled it as a sweet cap. not even a mention of the stamp on the slip. i believe it got a 10. |
#38
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Shawn
Not sure if this contibutes anything at all? But... Here are two photos, check out the stamp on the left side of the add. The other is a photo of one of their stores. |
#39
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Matt
SGC doesn't even acknowledge blue vs. black backs on M116s - that SGC has not acknowledged the stamp on the flip has no bearing on whether or not it is legitimate. |
#40
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
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#41
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Matt
I'll clarify - in my experience, SGC has been reluctant to add anything additional to a flip, unless it is a well established hobby reality. I wouldn't expect them to blaze the trail here with this stamp, even if it is legit. Therefore, the lack of acknowledgment on the flip doesn't sway the argument one way or the other, other then to say this isn't a well known and documented stamp, which we already knew. |
#42
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: leon
Matt....I can agree with what you just said....though I still think the card in question is a piece of sh**, but that is just my opinion.....warm regards |
#43
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Matt
lol - I think we're on the same page. |
#44
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: davidcycleback
I think David Smith's last point is excellent and correct. Liquid tends to soak down and increasingly outward into a substance, not just straight down. Besides, if the ink had soaked halfway or two thirds of the way through the card without losing any darkness or clarity, one might expect that it would have soaked all the way through to the front. If halfway through, the ink had become very light-- or nonexistent, as with the Sweet Caporal printing-- then one would understand why it didn't bleed through. |
#45
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Jon Canfield
Assuming this is an "underprint" I'm confused as to why the stamp is not in some of the areas of paperloss. For example, see the circled spots below. |
#46
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Shawn
The United Cigar Co. did have non-sports cards such as the T38 Aviators.. |
#47
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Kevin
Here are some pictures that should help relieve all doubt...then again it may not. Perhaps many here are judging the owner of the card and not the card itself. I also do not think it's a stamp but appears to be print scrap from the normal design. |
#48
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Shawn
That certainly gives things a different perspective. |
#49
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Steve
Kevin, I see what you're suggesting, but wouldn't a very thin ink penetrate through the red ink and not necessarily pool atop the red? It's obvious that the red ink is dark where contacting the black. |
#50
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Walter
As I understand it, the United Cigar Stores were the retail division of the American Tobacco Co. In true Trust fashion the ATC controlled everything from the raw materials to the final retailing of their product. The following is from page 214 of "Tobacco Tycoon" |
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