Who was the best center fielder of all time?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Zone91

Why would Ken Griffey jr pass before Mantle he never won a world series and Mantle won 7 of them?

Post # 6

Adrian, maybe this could be your next poll:
Who was the best player to never play in a World Series?

1- Napoleon Lajoie
2- George Sisler
3- Ernie Banks
4- Rod Carew
5- Ken Griffey Jr.

Did I miss anyone?

[deadballfreaK]

Mays! Mays in the live ball era. Speaker in the deadball era. Cobb was not a great fielder. Dimaggio was the third best CF in his family as far as fielding. Vince and Dom were better. Mantle was third. The NY bias is so great.

[Rickyy]

Playing first in that weird Polo Grounds and then getting rewarded by next being tortured in that windblown Candlestick for years...Willie gets tops...if not at least in the top 3.

Ricky Y

[itjclarke]

Mays.. and not because I'm a Giants fan. He just influenced a game on every level (power, hit for average, glove, RF caliber throwing arm, speed on basepaths on balls in play, speed to steal bases, and intellectually).

Seems like Mays has a huge lead here, which surprises me some since it was nearly neck and neck in the Mantle vs. Mays thread a few weeks back.

[the 'stache]

Willie Mays. Great power, great fielder, and let's not overlook the speed that helped him to be a great fielder. Willie was so fast, he's the only hitter I could think of that would hit a ball up the middle and have it hit him in the butt as he was sliding into second.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Zone91

Why so little love for Joe Dimaggio when he won 9 titles!!!

Post # 7

Why so hung up on titles?

For titles someone just has to be on a great team. And there have been plenty of marginal players on great teams with titles (Bucky %&%$ Dent) and some great players on lousy teams without titles.

Teds point about Mantle is an important one, there are some players who make the team better, some even to the point of making the team great by making everyone around them better. And that's a very hard thing to put to numbers. It's a bit more obvious in other sports, Jordan, Bird, Magic. All of them made the rest of the team much better.

I never saw Mantle play, except maybe a time or two on television before I really got sports. (Until I was 10 it was more science, especially space for me) But there are so many people who talk about how he was such a force on the team I have to think there's something to it.

Another player in Baseball who seemed to make his teams that much better was Don Baylor. At the end of his career, 3 straight trips to the World series with 3 different teams. I'm not so sure that has been done before or since. He didn't really get much credit for that, but it is a hard things to put to numbers.

The opposite is Arod. Huge numbers, for years. But Seattle only won their division his second year when he didn't play much. The next few they were 3rd or 2nd. They won the division the year after he left. Texas wasn't good, but when he arived they were only a bad year removed from a division title. With him they finished last all 3 years. In NY, he went to a great team. One that had won a string of division titles and wasn't that far off from having won 3 straight world series.
With him, they still won, but had possibly the worst playoff collapse ever. And except for 2009 haven't done much in the postseason. In 09 I think they won despite Arod, how much better would they have been without him from 04 till now?

Steve B

[sccoe]

Mantle may have had the most talent but Mays was the best.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by sccoe

Mantle may have had the most talent but Mays was the best.

I can agree with that.

Man, imagine if the Mick had taken care of himself, though. What kind of numbers could he have put up?

[MBMiller25]

Willie Mays

[T206Collector]

Mays or Griffey, but probably Mays...

[bigtrain]

The answer is Mays, of those players listed Mantle.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by steve B

Teds point about Mantle is an important one, there are some players who make the team better, some even to the point of making the team great by making everyone around them better.

And that's a very hard thing to put to numbers. It's a bit more obvious in other sports, Jordan, Bird, Magic. All of them made the rest of the team much better.



Another player in Baseball who seemed to make his teams that much better was Don Baylor. At the end of his career, 3 straight trips to the World series with 3 different teams. I'm not so sure that has been done before or since. He didn't really get much credit for that, but it is a hard things to put to numbers.
Steve B

Thanks for making that point regarding Mantle. It's exactly my feeling about The Mick. This factor is something that has eluded many on this forum that favor Mays.

But, I understand and respect their opinions on this subject. However, I have the advantage over most of them in that I grew up with Mantle and Mays. I was a very
avid BB fan as a kid, I closely followed Mantle's performance from 1951 to 1964. And, also Mays playing days from 1951 to early 1970's.

Let's hear some opinions from guys here that were also lucky enough to have seen these two great HOFer's play ?


.. Type 2 .................................................. .................................................. Type 1



T-Rex TED

[Sean]

Originally Posted by steve B

Why so hung up on titles?

For titles someone just has to be on a great team. And there have been plenty of marginal players on great teams with titles (Bucky %&%$ Dent) and some great players on lousy teams without titles.

Teds point about Mantle is an important one, there are some players who make the team better, some even to the point of making the team great by making everyone around them better. And that's a very hard thing to put to numbers. It's a bit more obvious in other sports, Jordan, Bird, Magic. All of them made the rest of the team much better.

I never saw Mantle play, except maybe a time or two on television before I really got sports. (Until I was 10 it was more science, especially space for me) But there are so many people who talk about how he was such a force on the team I have to think there's something to it.

Another player in Baseball who seemed to make his teams that much better was Don Baylor. At the end of his career, 3 straight trips to the World series with 3 different teams. I'm not so sure that has been done before or since. He didn't really get much credit for that, but it is a hard things to put to numbers.

The opposite is Arod. Huge numbers, for years. But Seattle only won their division his second year when he didn't play much. The next few they were 3rd or 2nd. They won the division the year after he left. Texas wasn't good, but when he arived they were only a bad year removed from a division title. With him they finished last all 3 years. In NY, he went to a great team. One that had won a string of division titles and wasn't that far off from having won 3 straight world series.
With him, they still won, but had possibly the worst playoff collapse ever. And except for 2009 haven't done much in the postseason. In 09 I think they won despite Arod, how much better would they have been without him from 04 till now?

Steve B

Since you referenced Don Baylor, I want to point out Joe Morgan's record of success.
In '72 he joined a Reds team that had tied for 4th the previous year.He helped them to 4 division titles in 5 years,with 3 World Series appearances and 2 Championships. He was NL MVP those two years.
In 1980 he joins the Astros,who had never won the division. Ever. They won it that year with Morgan.
In 1981 he goes to the Giants, a 5th place team the year before he joined them. It took two years, but he had them in the race all the way until the final weekend in '82. They finished 2 games behind Atlanta.
In 1983 he went to the Phillies, who finished a strong second the previous year. They made it to the WS with him that year.
Every team he went to got better, usually very quickly. I've never understood why he doesn't get more credit.

[travrosty]

I can see griffey junior crushing a homerun to win a game, but i cannot see ruth rounding third and sliding across home al la griffey junior in '95 game 5 playoffs. i see ruth lumbering home and is he gonna have the speed adn athleticism of griff jr to make it.?

[Pinstriper780]

Ty Cobb (obviously great hitter, but VERY average fielder)

I'm going with Mick or Mays. Power and both were above excellent defensively.

[oldjudge]

It wasn't so much that Mantle didn't take care of himself; the problem was he tore up his knee early in his career on a sprinkler head (I believe) in the outfield at Yankee Stadium and he was never the same player again. He used to have his knee taped for every game thereafter and many times the bandage were bloody when the game was over. I saw most of Mantle's and Mays' careers so I can answer Ted's question. I was a rabid Yankee fan, but I never thought that Mantle was a clutch player. The guys you could rely on in a close game were Berra, Skowron and Richardson. Mantle was a good, not a great fielder. In fact, later in his career he was taken out in later innings for defensive purposes and replaced by Jack Reed. Mays was a terror to play against. When he got on the bases he was a big distraction to pitchers. However, when I watched him play, I never thought of him as an all time great. He was a very good hitter who played a long time and put up some big numbers.Getting back to Mantle, I can tell you that throughout his career in NY there was never any question in fan's minds who was a better centerfielder, Mantle or DiMaggio. Everyone I knew who had seen both play thought DiMaggio was better. Every all time all star team I ever saw put together through the 1970s always had the outfield of Ruth, Cobb and DiMaggio. Somehow, people who have never seen these players play have decided to somehow downgrade DiMaggio. I think this is a mistake.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Mays

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

It wasn't so much that Mantle didn't take care of himself; the problem was he tore up his knee early in his career on a sprinkler head (I believe) in the outfield at Yankee Stadium and he was never the same player again. He used to have his knee taped for every game thereafter and many times the bandage were bloody when the game was over. I saw most of Mantle's and Mays' careers so I can answer Ted's question. I was a rabid Yankee fan, but I never thought that Mantle was a clutch player. The guys you could rely on in a close game were Berra, Skowron and Richardson. Mantle was a good, not a great fielder. In fact, later in his career he was taken out in later innings for defensive purposes and replaced by Jack Reed. Mays was a terror to play against. When he got on the bases he was a big distraction to pitchers. However, when I watched him play, I never thought of him as an all time great. He was a very good hitter who played a long time and put up some big numbers.Getting back to Mantle, I can tell you that throughout his career in NY there was never any question in fan's minds who was a better centerfielder, Mantle or DiMaggio. Everyone I knew who had seen both play thought DiMaggio was better. Every all time all star team I ever saw put together through the 1970s always had the outfield of Ruth, Cobb and DiMaggio. Somehow, people who have never seen these players play have decided to somehow downgrade DiMaggio. I think this is a mistake.

OK Jay....well said. However, I have to differ with you on certain events.

1st....Mantle's "sprinkler injury" occurred in his rookie year in the 1951 World Series. Sure, he suffered from it with chronic leg problems; however, it did not stop Mantle
from being the fastest AL player running down to 1st base in a quick 3.0 seconds.

It also didn't stop Mickey from covering a lot of ground in that spacious outfield in Yankee Stadium. Indeed, his tremendous catch of Gil Hodges deep, deep drive to the
Monuments in Don Larsen's Perfect Game in the 1956 World Series was an amazing event to see....and, I did see it that day in October.

2nd....this comment of your's....."I never thought that Mantle was a clutch player".....tells me that you could not have seen Mickey play in the 1950's (or early 1960's).
If time allowed, I could fill up pages of events where I saw Mantle produce in the "clutch". I will never forget in the 1953 World Series when Mantle hit a GRAND SLAM to
beat the Dodgers at Ebbets Field.

I also saw Joe DiMaggio play from 1947 - 1951. And, I certainly agree with you that Joe D. as a Centerfielder was better than Mantle (and, even Mays).


T-Rex TED
__________________________________________________ ______________________
LOOKING FOR these T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set

AMES....CAMNITZ....CRAWFORD (bat)....DOYLE (port)....JORDAN (bat)....MARQUARD
McGRAW (port-cap).....McQUILLAN (bat).....TINKER (bat off).....WILTSE (port-cap)

[Hcom24]

The Say Hey Kid

[robw1959]

I would be tempted to go with Willie Mays since I've never seen Tris Speaker. But Mays did not have over 400 outfield assists, nor a lifetime batting average of .345. In my mind the overall greatest CF was Speaker.

[ptr002]

Willie Mays; Mickey Mantle of the players listed

[AndrewJerome]

Cobb should be #1. In all time great rankings, Mays is helped by a long career, and DiMaggio is hurt by a short career.

My top 6 (two through four are very close):

1) Cobb
2) Mays
3) Mantle
4) Charleston
5) DiMaggio
6) Speaker

[the 'stache]

DiMaggio 5th? Ah, no.

[Jlighter]

I'm just going to put this out there.

Cobb is highly overrated.

Come at me.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by robw1959

... But Mays did not have over 400 outfield assists... In my mind the overall greatest CF was Speaker.

Speaker's assist numbers are ridiculous, but I think they're really tough to compare with current OF stats. Playing much of his careeer in the dead ball era (and in some small ballparks as mentioned earlier) allowed him to play a much shallower CF than modern day outfielders. I think it was probably not that uncommon for a CF to get an assist on a standard force out a 2nd on an otherwise clean line drive to center. I think runners were also more aggressive in stretching singles into doubles and doubles into triples, allowing for more assist opportunities. Mays by all reports had an absolutely cannon of an arm, and playing in the modern era has very respectable even high assist total for a center fielder.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Speaker's assist numbers are ridiculous, but I think they're really tough to compare with current OF stats. Playing much of his careeer in the dead ball era (and in some small ballparks as mentioned earlier) allowed him to play a much shallower CF than modern day outfielders. I think it was probably not that uncommon for a CF to get an assist on a standard force out a 2nd on an otherwise clean line drive to center. I think runners were also more aggressive in stretching singles into doubles and doubles into triples, allowing for more assist opportunities. Mays by all reports had an absolutely cannon of an arm, and playing in the modern era has very respectable even high assist total for a center fielder.

Small parks everywhere isn't exactly what I meant. Fenway was small and playing there let Speaker play a different sort of centerfield. Most other parks of the time were enormous. Huntingdon avenue grounds were 350 down the LF line, and between 530 and 635 to center. Distances down the lines of around 350-360 weren't unusual even in parks built in the same era as Fenway. And center was often 440+ with some places still being in the 500 foot range. With spectators allowed on the field at times, a line drive that got past a fielder was bad news, often a home run. In Fenway Speaker could play shallow, and with the leftfielder also playing shallow, backup was close enough to matter.

League park was also on the small side especially to right. That might have let him play more towards left, maybe cutting off some angle for righthanded batters.

But he still had to be fast enough for the typical large parks.

It would be interesting to see how many of his OF assists were at home after 1912.
What's also interesting is that looking at the stats there wasn't a big jump in assists between the years before 1912 and 1912 and after. So maybe what I've always heard is wrong?

Steve B

[SteveMitchell]

My system (which is merely the way a cross country meet is/was scored) isn't perfected (yet). Like most baseball cranks, sometimes my opinion overrides even the best of systems.

I do agree with you, however, in your second paragraph with regard to the fact that one player (even great players like these center-fielders) cannot carry a whole team. And, quite possibly, any one of them might have been inserted in place of another with similar team results.

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Steve--I'm confused by your last statement. You clearly rank DiMaggio as the best hitting centerfielder ever. He was not just a good fielder, he was a great fielder. If he beat Mays by a decent margin on offense there is no way that Mays catches him based on defense. Mays MAY have been slightly better on defense, but DiMaggio was one of the greatest fielding centerfielders of his era.

BTW, I don't think championships mean much when ranking players. Baseball is a team game, one guy can't carry the team. Mantle on Mays' Giants don't win any more pennants than the Giants did; they may win less. Similarly, Mays replacing Mantle on the Yankees (which would have made him the first Black Yankee--they didn't rush out to sign Black ball players) would have not cost them any pennants. Might have won them an extra World Series too.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by steve B

... But he still had to be fast enough for the typical large parks.

It would be interesting to see how many of his OF assists were at home after 1912.
What's also interesting is that looking at the stats there wasn't a big jump in assists between the years before 1912 and 1912 and after. So maybe what I've always heard is wrong?

Steve B

I'd love to see those types of home/away defensive splits. I'd also have loved to see that style of baseball, since I think the outfield assist is one of the most exciting and underrated plays in baseball.. and I think so much better in person than on TV, in that you're able to see the whole play as it develops. I do still have to think many of those assists were force outs at 2nd on what would have otherwise been hits, as well throwing behind runners after catching short line drives (splits on that would be great too)... both assist types that are pretty rare today. I also do think runners were much more aggressive and took more chances (just look how many attempted steals there were back then)... though have definitely done less reading/research on the topic as you have.

These types of ridiculous statistical disparities (outfield assists, batters' low strike out rates, frequency of running and bunting, more triples, inside the park home runs, stealing home, etc) between then and today's game make me wish so much that I could see one game from that era.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

In regards to the Mantle legen(wait for it)dary! status, it seems almost inhuman some of the stuff he did. Bo Jackson is a modern day Mantle, that guy was an absolute beast! He may not have been the best at what he did, but some of the stuff he did made you wonder, 'how the hell can someone do that'. The stories are incredible.

[quinnsryche]

Jim Edmonds & Torii Hunter (I never saw the others besides Griffey and those 2 were not better hitters but were the best fielding centerfielders I have ever seen).