Its not just moser/pwcc...more trimmers exposed

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by drcy

Never understood the current centering mania. Centering is a quality, but not the quality.

+1

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

You are entitled to live in the vast minority. Have you read everything?

I admit haven't read everything. Will try to catch up this weekend.

My opinions were a bit heuristic given PWCC's business is doing too well to risk for small $.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Maybe it's easier to just blame PWCC because most around here didn't like them to begin with. But if PSA is unable to determine what cards have been altered, and can't even determine if modern cards have been trimmed, what are we paying them all of this money for?

I've asked that question too, but can't seem to get an answer. If you were hired to do a job and you couldn't do it for whatever reason - you didn't have the staff to execute the job, you didn't have enough time to execute the job, you simply don't know how to execute the job - whatever reason - would you take the customer's money anyway? I hope the answer would be no. So why does PSA continue to do it? Why are they taking customer's money if they can't detect alterations? I'm sorry but, to me, taking money for a job you can't do is way more fraudulent than what people are accusing PWCC of doing.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I've asked that question too, but can't seem to get an answer. If you were hired to do a job and you couldn't do it for whatever reason - you didn't have the staff to execute the job, you didn't have enough time to execute the job, you simply don't know how to execute the job - whatever reason - would you take the customer's money anyway? I hope the answer would be no. So why does PSA continue to do it? Why are they taking customer's money if they can't detect alterations? I'm sorry but, to me, taking money for a job you can't do is way more fraudulent than what people are accusing PWCC of doing.

David,
If I could give you a fist bump I would.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I've asked that question too, but can't seem to get an answer. If you were hired to do a job and you couldn't do it for whatever reason - you didn't have the staff to execute the job, you didn't have enough time to execute the job, you simply don't know how to execute the job - whatever reason - would you take the customer's money anyway? I hope the answer would be no. So why does PSA continue to do it? Why are they taking customer's money if they can't detect alterations? I'm sorry but, to me, taking money for a job you can't do is way more fraudulent than what people are accusing PWCC of doing.

I have pondered this for years also, David. The best I can figure, the registry has continued to drive the PSA machine...which I know isn't news. Also, many people stopped collecting cards in exchange for flips a long time ago.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

I admit haven't read everything. Will try to catch up this weekend.

My opinions were a bit heuristic given PWCC's business is doing too well to risk for small $.

That's why you need to read up. It's not small money, even by PWCC's standards.

[perezfan]

Agree with David... it’s criminal.

[LOUCARDFAN]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

+1

And it's my opinion that the trimmed cards are being stretched prior to trimming, so they're being trimmed down to what the card should actually measure. A computer or machine will never be able to distinguish the difference between a card that's been trimmed and one that hasn't based on the size of the card alone. It goes back to what I was saying just a couple posts above. People want to rely on someone or something else to do it for them because they're too damn laze to educate themselves. Sad really.

Yes, lots of people are uneducated these days when it comes to raw cards but this isn't the golden days where most card purchases were made where you could actually hold the card in your hand and examine it BEFORE buying it.

How many purchases has one made with the actual card in hand to examine before purchasing in the last 10-15 years? Probably, not many with the exception of the National and other shows.

Card grading was a great idea that was greatly needed with internet trading being what it has been for the last 20-25 years but then the greed took over and what could have been good thing for the hobby, just gave some a license to print money.

[frankbmd]

The underworld is not transparent.

Show me the Card Fax.

Is buying a used card that different from buying a used car?

One benefits from the “repair” history of the car before the purchase.

Does the card doctor proudly put a sticker on the card to document his fine work?

Does the auction house reference their prior sale of the same card when the “altered and graded” card is relisted by the same auction house and have the gall to add a sticker that the card doctor omitted?

Does the grader acknowledge that the same, now altered, card has previously received a lower grade? Shouldn’t he know, even if there is no money passed under the table?

Do you really want to spend $10000, $20000 or more on a card without this information to garner an elite status gold star on a registry? Apparently many do.

To try to absolve any of the involved entities of guilt, by placing the blame on one of the others, is the pot calling the kettle black or vice versa. Are all the parties colluding in the scheme? Perhaps not to the same degree, but they are at least complicit.

If there was a true whistle blower at any of the stops along the way, the fraud would be uncovered. Blowout and Net54 both have members no doubt with skin in the game. But Redefining fraud to absolve oneself of guilt seems by most to be an insufficient tactic. To remain silent and wait for the wind to blow this away may be successful, but does not mean the fraud isn’t happening.

Disclaimer: I have never seen a Car Fax, or had any dealing with them

I would buy a 1992 Toyota without one, but would be more careful in the purchase of my Rolls Royce or Bentley.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

The underworld is not transparent.

Show me the Card Fax.

Is buying a used card that different from buying a used car?

One benefits from the “repair” history of the car before the purchase.

Does the card doctor proudly put a sticker on the card to document his fine work?

Does the auction house reference their prior sale of the same card when the “altered and graded” card is relisted by the same auction house and have the gall to add a sticker that the card doctor omitted?

Does the grader acknowledge that the same, now altered, card has previously received a lower grade? Shouldn’t he know, even if there is no money passed under the table.

Do you really want to spend $10000, $20000 or more on a card without this information to garner an elite status gold star on a registry? Apparently many do.

To try to absolve any of the involved entities of guilt, by placing the blame on one of the others, is the pot calling the kettle black or vice versa. Are all the parties colluding in the scheme? Perhaps not to the same degree, but they are at least complicit.

If there was a true whistle blower at any of the stops along the way, the fraud would be uncovered. Blowout and Net54 both have members no doubt with skin in the game. But Redefining fraud to absolve oneself of guilt seems by most to be an insufficient tactic. To remain silent and wait for the wind to blow this away may be successful, but does not mean the fraud isn’t happening.

Disclaimer: I have never seen a Car Fax, or had any dealing with them

I would buy a 1992 Toyota without one, but would be more careful in the purchase of my Rolls Royce or Bentley.

Kinda

EDIT: Shoulda seen it coming. I posted before I got to the next line.

[Bigdaddy]

I've always been an Eagles fan (the band, not the football team) and methinks Glenn Frey hit the nail on the head when he sang (from Smuggler's Blues):

"thre's lots of shady characters
lots of dirty deals
ev'ry name's an alias
in case somebody squeals
it's the lure of easy money
it's gotta very strong appeal"

I think every line of this chorus applies to this mess. From PSA to PWCC to Moser and the other trimmers to eBay aliases and shilling to the exponential difference in prices of high grade cards (PSA 8-10). Though we own that last one.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I've always been an Eagles fan (the band, not the football team) and methinks Glenn Frey hit the nail on the head when he sang (from Smuggler's Blues):

"thre's lots of shady characters
lots of dirty deals
ev'ry name's an alias
in case somebody squeals
it's the lure of easy money
it's gotta very strong appeal"

I think every line of this chorus applies to this mess. From PSA to PWCC to Moser and the other trimmers to eBay aliases and shilling to the exponential difference in prices of high grade cards (PSA 8-10). Though we own that last one.

its those smugggglers blues!!!!!

[bobbyw8469]

Oh lord...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2342


They really blew the color job on that one.

[perezfan]

And we’re supposed to believe PSA really missed that??

Seriously, if there’s a company who’s worse at the ONE THING they’re supposed to do, I’d love to know who it is. Nice job, PSA!

I know we’ve already said it’s the “tip of the iceberg”. But I’m honestly losing count of these now.

[frankbmd]

Does PSA remove the pre-altered grade from their pop report when they add the grade of the altered version of the same card?

Pop Report enthusiasts should consider this when touting their pops.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Oh lord...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2342


They really blew the color job on that one.

yuck

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

yuck

And Peter....BOTH cards got the PWCC "High End" sticker. A '5' with a huge surface scratch like that, as well as a '7' with obvious color touch on it. I'm literally speechless right now.

[frankbmd]

Stickers trump grading in pre-school and in Oregon.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Does PSA remove the pre-altered grade from their pop report when they add the grade of the altered version of the same card?

Pop Report enthusiasts should consider this when touting their pops.

I have put that request already in my wish list to Steve Sloan. There are some set registry ne'er-do-wells that probably still have them in their sets.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

And Peter....BOTH cards got the PWCC "High End" sticker. A '5' with a huge surface scratch like that, as well as a '7' with obvious color touch on it. I'm literally speechless right now.

And people thought it was crazy three days ago when I said the N162 or whatever was likely recolored because "PSA would catch that!"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

And Peter....BOTH cards got the PWCC "High End" sticker. A '5' with a huge surface scratch like that, as well as a '7' with obvious color touch on it. I'm literally speechless right now.

I feel a bit vindicated in my opposition from day one to these stupid stickers.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Does PSA remove the pre-altered grade from their pop report when they add the grade of the altered version of the same card?

Pop Report enthusiasts should consider this when touting their pops.

How classic would it be if the population of one of the modern serial-numbered cards that has had example(s) involved with this trimming scandal has a PSA graded population higher than the highest serial number... this might actually be out there!

[perezfan]

A brand new group of altered vintage cards were exposed on BO last night. Many have had obvious color added, and PSA continually fails to detect it.

Also, Moser's net gain was recently posted for the poorly executed color-added Clemente Rookie.... Nearly a $7,000 gain on that one awful card alone.

[Throttlesteer]

What percentage of "freshly graded" cards do you think truly haven't seen a holder before? I think it's quite small and the pops are considerably off due to this kind of stuff.

[Exhibitman]

This whole situation is f***ed. I don't collect the stuff that has been in these lists and posts but I feel just terrible about it for those who spent their hard-earned money on these fraudulent products. I also feel bad for this hobby. The vast majority of collectors and sellers are honest and decent folks who wouldn't dream of being part of a scam like this, and they (we) are all going to eat some financial crap because of this. All i can say to the doctors and their enablers is



damn you all to hell.

[perezfan]

Sad, but great post, Adam...

It's very disturbing that Planet Of The Fakes is the most prevalent world within the Collectors Universe

[tschock]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Oh lord...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2342


They really blew the color job on that one.

That's a pretty quick turnaround time for a sale, doctoring, reslab, and resale. 4 months. Hmmmm....

[Peter_Spaeth]

The humanity.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297033

[Buythatcard]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The humanity.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297033

That's insane. Where does it end? Seems like just the tip of the iceberg.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by LOUCARDFAN

... but then the greed took over and what could have been good thing for the hobby, just gave some a license to print money.

THEN the greed took over?

Hahahahahahaha, I'm rolling on the floor laughing over here (and my hotel has hardwood floors, so it's a bit uncomfortable).

It was kind of early in the process when the greed took over...

Allow me to, once again, point out the very FIRST card that the biggest seller of opinions ever gave an opinion on (although it was pointed last time I mentioned it that they were probably giving that opinion for no charge)...

Ladies and gentleman, straight from being hand cut from a sheet, the first paid opinion that mattered, #00000001, I present to you the world's most valuable card, the authentic, oops, sorry, I mean 8 on a 10 scale, Gretzky Wagner...

[doug.goodman]

When a thread gets this long, sometimes it helps to post the same jokes.

And it IS a joke.

Doug "just call me the dead horse beater" Goodman

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

That's insane. Where does it end? Seems like just the tip of the iceberg.

Recall these are just cards from the last few years from one source; there are many bad sources. And only cards these guys have been able to find before and after evidence. Even as to the one source it wouldn't touch all the raw cards he buys. We may never see the iceberg but we can infer its size. If PWCC really wanted to do good for the hobby (yeah right) it would come clean on each and every card consigned by a questionable source. Guess -- it would be a staggering list.

[Buythatcard]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

When a thread gets this long, sometimes it helps to post the same jokes.

And it IS a joke.

Doug "just call me the dead horse beater" Goodman

The thread has to keep going otherwise this will get swept under the rug. Sometimes you have throw in a bad joke just to keep this thing going.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I have put that request already in my wish list to Steve Sloan. There are some set registry ne'er-do-wells that probably still have them in their sets.

So when is Sloan going to address this...publically?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

The thread has to keep going otherwise this will get swept under the rug. Sometimes you have throw in a bad joke just to keep this thing going.

They're actually good jokes, they have kept me laughing for years, ever since card #00000001 when everybody first stuck their head in the sand, trying to avoid the obvious.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I have put that request already in my wish list to Steve Sloan. There are some set registry ne'er-do-wells that probably still have them in their sets.

Some?

Probably?

Hahahaha!

This thread is cheaper than drinking in a comedy club, with more punch lines.


And the people who get paid for their opinions are laughing all the way to the bank...

[T206Collector]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2361

[The Nasty Nati]

This guy can really recolor like a pro. Baffled PSA is missing these and so many more recolored ones found on Blowout.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2361

Sadly, I would have been happy with that SGC 30 as it was...

[T206Collector]

I think he’s adding a light gloss to the cards after he recolors, so it doesn’t look like the surface is being touched. He gets “under” the patina that way.

[HRBAKER]

The hits just keep on coming.
Great work over there on BO.

We're gonna need a bigger boat,.........err, Conservatory.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

This is all enough to make me want to exclusively go the beat up ball card route or return to picking up vintage photos that I like (mainly from RMY) and steer clear from this nonsense.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I think he’s adding a light gloss to the cards after he recolors, so it doesn’t look like the surface is being touched. He gets “under” the patina that way.

That makes perfect sense, but it should still fail a blacklight test. Why aren't these high dollar cards being examined under a blacklight? Is an extra 30 seconds in the review process really that much extra effort, especially on high dollar cards?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

That makes perfect sense, but it should still fail a blacklight test. Why aren't these high dollar cards being examined under a blacklight? Is an extra 30 seconds in the review process really that much extra effort, especially on high dollar cards?

I am told he may be using a type of paint or ink hat doesn't show up?

[Bigdaddy]

For a computer based vision system with machine learning capability, the detection of alterations to cards, whether trimmed edges, recoloring or other alterations, should be easy to detect.

This is a grad student project to put together the system and to 'teach' it with known examples of altered and unaltered cards. You could also give the system rules for grading the cards. No human operator needed (or desired).

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

No human operator needed (or desired).

Then who would the card doctors pay the kickbacks to?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Then who would the card doctors pay the kickbacks to?

Someone still has to feed the cards into the machine.

[Batpig]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

For a computer based vision system with machine learning capability, the detection of alterations to cards, whether trimmed edges, recoloring or other alterations, should be easy to detect.

This is a grad student project to put together the system and to 'teach' it with known examples of altered and unaltered cards. You could also give the system rules for grading the cards. No human operator needed (or desired).

I think you’re oversimplifying it. The reason it hasn’t already been done is it is incredibly difficult and complex.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

That makes perfect sense, but it should still fail a blacklight test. Why aren't these high dollar cards being examined under a blacklight? Is an extra 30 seconds in the review process really that much extra effort, especially on high dollar cards?

You’re absolutely right:

https://sabrbaseballcards.blog/2017/...uthentication/

[drcy]

Not the same things, but they do use AI to help authenticate paintings. The paintings study the brushstrokes to see how they line up with the brushstrokes of known original paintings of the painters. Has even worked on Jackson Pollock paintings.

I very highly doubt humans will ever be removed, or should be removed, from grading, but new technology and science can certainly be used.