Its not just moser/pwcc...more trimmers exposed

[Peter_Spaeth]

As a general proposition card doctors cater to the market. When low pop commons were the thing, they were slicing the cards that were notoriously off center to make cards that would barely qualify as 8s. I strongly suspect that with the centering mania of the last couple of years, they are focused on finding cards they can make into perfectly centered ones.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Yes but I am not about to give up great looking, well centered vintage cards.

Just make sure they aren't centered 48 48.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Bram99

Collectors Universe can simply start or invest in a competing company with better technology that is separate and avoid the need to refund original people duped by owning cards incorrectly graded by PSA. A great way to hedge their bets. Premiums for PSA opinions should fall no doubt.

Your point about hedging bets is a good one. The flip side is that the new company presumably would be an affiliate of PSA, and usually it is not the case a company creates an affiliate that would end up hurting in a big way one of its other companies. That said, I suppose if Collectors Universe sees the writing on the wall that the introduction of such a new high-tech grading company is inevitable to the market, they might as well be the ones to reap the benefits.

That would create some interesting advertising fodder for anybody starting such a new company and having to compete with Collectors Universe's version. I can only imagine the slogans that one could come up with asking potential submitters why on earth they would want to give their business to a company run by the same people who created the mess in the first place.

[Johnny630]

Would anyone be surprised if search warrants are to come......

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They never have really taken on PSA, in their marketing have they?

Best not to crow about someone elses negligence when they have plenty of their own.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sheesh.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2162

That's one very sophisticated alteration.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Oh my.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2287

[joshuanip]

My money (as I continue to buy) is that this will blow over. Known unknown risk for prewar, unknown risk for modern. Will this impact prices in short term, definitely. But medium (supply dries if prices take a hit) longer term (demand curve) supply and demand dynamics will prevail.

Not holding our breath that the culpable parties take a knee for the better of our industry. Economics are better for them to take a wait and see approach as soft short term prices are tolerable for them (not us) - unless they take this as an opportunity to innovate and take market share.

At minimum, the heightened awareness and ability to track cards (through the case) does make longer term profitability of cheating our hobby more risky. Which is a good thing. Can we have some FBI investigations in here! Will pile more dirt in our industry but definitely help longer term in placing punitive consequences for these criminals.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Me too. Many did. But the depth and breadth is more astonishing than I had anticipated it would be, to say the least.

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

I'm not the peanut gallery.

I have plenty of soup, I just don't pay people for opinions on mine.

Everybody who has purchased a card in the last 20 years is effected by this issue, but anybody who is just now finding out about this issue must not have noticed that the very first paid opinion delivered by the king of all paid opinion givers was for a trimmed card.

It's all been down hill from there, and anybody who ever thought it wasn't, well, they were / are delusional.

EVERY card EVER given a paid opinion is suspect.

Break out those kitchen knives (at least that's what I use) and get back to where this hobby was when (many (most?) of us) started, and before it was hijacked.

Each and every one of us who has paid for an opinion is part of the problem.

Doug "but maybe I'm completely wrong" Goodman

Doug "but Maybe I'm 50-50" Goodman...

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by bounce

TOTAL SPECULATION on my part...

I think they were submitting the altered cards under "minimum grade" service.

We know there are chunks of certain submissions with missing/unused numbers around cards that have been shown to likely be altered.

I don't submit cards for grading so I can't say this for certain, maybe someone who does can chime in.

My understanding is that if you just submit under normal service and they think it's been altered, you get it back with an "evidence of trimming" or "altered" label on the card saver.

However, if you submit under minimum grade and it doesn't make it for any reason, it just comes back saying it didn't meet minimum grade.

If you didn't want to "know" that PSA thought it was trimmed, the min grade service would be a good way to do it.

Again, not sure I'm right on this so hoping someone else who really does know can confirm or correct.

Correct, and the ones that don't make it through, get pushed through again and again and again. Nice business model Brent Mastro.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Oh my.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2287

Nice trimmed Mantle. Good Work Brent Mastro, scammer extraordinaire.

Can't wait for this to crumble on top of ole poor Brent Mastro. There is always some guy trying to scam the system and Brent is THAT guy.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Oh my.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2287

"oh my", "sheesh", "mercy", "good golly miss molly" (not sure if I got that one right)…..and probably others I can't remember. Peter, you are very descriptive.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

My money (as I continue to buy) is that this will blow over. Known unknown risk for prewar, unknown risk for modern. Will this impact prices in short term, definitely. But medium (supply dries if prices take a hit) longer term (demand curve) supply and demand dynamics will prevail.

Not holding our breath that the culpable parties take a knee for the better of our industry. Economics are better for them to take a wait and see approach as soft short term prices are tolerable for them (not us) - unless they take this as an opportunity to innovate and take market share.

At minimum, the heightened awareness and ability to track cards (through the case) does make longer term profitability of cheating our hobby more risky. Which is a good thing. Can we have some FBI investigations in here! Will pile more dirt in our industry but definitely help longer term in placing punitive consequences for these criminals.

Moser & Brent have been doing this for at least 10 years and Hoser for 20. Nothing will be done, don't worry.

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Nice trimmed Mantle. Good Work Brent Mastro, scammer extraordinaire.

Can't wait for this to crumble on top of ole poor Brent Mastro. There is always some guy trying to scam the system and Brent is THAT guy.

I disagree with your opinion on Brent. He built himself a fine mousetrap, worth more than this nickel and dime scam (relative to his enterprise value). Problem is he grown with his volume and there hasn’t been quality control measures commensurate to that growth. I think implementing card reviews at levels based on card value, and transparency on the process, would go a long way. It I don’t think he was in on it.

I read the shilling posts, read underneath it as well.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

At this point, it truly would not surprise me. In a way it would be a relief, as it would show the company as a whole wasn't as awful at this as it now is starting to seem.

I doubt it's just one person inside. If it was, how do they assure that their inside guy gets their submission. If anything, it has to be at least two, one in receiving and one grader.

And if there's a pattern of one person always doing one customers submissions, what does it say about their internal security if that's not noticed?

[jad22]

Originally Posted by steve B

I doubt it's just one person inside. If it was, how do they assure that their inside guy gets their submission. If anything, it has to be at least two, one in receiving and one grader.

And if there's a pattern of one person always doing one customers submissions, what does it say about their internal security if that's not noticed?

Don't they do grading at shows? It could be the same guy.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

I disagree with your opinion on Brent. He built himself a fine mousetrap, worth more than this nickel and dime scam (relative to his enterprise value). Problem is he grown with his volume and there hasn’t been quality control measures commensurate to that growth. I think implementing card reviews at levels based on card value, and transparency on the process, would go a long way. It I don’t think he was in on it.

I read the shilling posts, read underneath it as well.

You are entitled to live in the vast minority. Have you read everything?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

I disagree with your opinion on Brent. He built himself a fine mousetrap, worth more than this nickel and dime scam (relative to his enterprise value). Problem is he grown with his volume and there hasn’t been quality control measures commensurate to that growth. I think implementing card reviews at levels based on card value, and transparency on the process, would go a long way. It I don’t think he was in on it.

I read the shilling posts, read underneath it as well.

His issues have nothing to do with quality control. They have to do with knowingly maintaining relationships with bad people. Not opinion, by the way. Admitted fact.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Oh my.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2287

I'd love to know how that edge roughening is done. That in my opinion is impressive. Criminal, but impressive.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

I'd love to know how that edge roughening is done. That in my opinion is impressive. Criminal, but impressive.

Trade secret.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by jad22

Don't they do grading at shows? It could be the same guy.

I don't know about PSA, but when I had some done at a show by SGC the grader/graders weren't in the booth, but somewhere else. I never got to see them work, or even see them at all.
The handful of expensive stuff I had done rather than mail it was all very simple gradings. A few "A" cards, a 10/1, and one that got a pretty generous 40.

Some of the submissions shown on BO are pretty big, 100+ cards. Do they do subs that big at a show, or just accept them for later grading?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Interesting quote from Betsy on Sports Card Radio's love piece. Apologies if already posted.

PWCC Director of Communications Betsy Huigens wrote in an email to Sports Card Radio that "We are very aware of who Gary Moser is."

The same was true 10 years ago, and perhaps longer.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Interesting quote from Betsy on Sports Card Radio's love piece. Apologies if already posted.

PWCC Director of Communications Betsy Huigens wrote in an email to Sports Card Radio that "We are very aware of who Gary Moser is."

The same was true 10 years ago, and perhaps longer.

Did she also say he's one of their preferred clients?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Trade secret.

Even the great ones get caught and their methods exposed.

https://d2jf3tgwe889fp.cloudfront.ne...8pp147-163.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_Sperati

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franço...(stamp_forger)

Some of the Sperati and Fournier stuff so devalued the originals that the forgeries often sell for more.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Interesting quote from Betsy on Sports Card Radio's love piece. Apologies if already posted.

PWCC Director of Communications Betsy Huigens wrote in an email to Sports Card Radio that "We are very aware of who Gary Moser is."

The same was true 10 years ago, and perhaps longer.

And PSA took submissions from Moser for 20 years under his own name, knowing full well who and what he is. And if you try to get money out of them for a butchered card they graded, they’ll fight you to the death.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

And PSA took submissions from Moser for 20 years under his own name, knowing full well who and what he is. And if you try to get money out of them for a butchered card they graded, they’ll fight you to the death.

Gives you a warm fuzzy feeling.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Interesting post from 2008 directed at Gary.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...6&postcount=30

[Peter_Spaeth]

cross posting this list of potentially bad cards

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1296884

[ALR-bishop]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

I'm not the peanut gallery.

I have plenty of soup, I just don't pay people for opinions on mine.

Everybody who has purchased a card in the last 20 years is effected by this issue, but anybody who is just now finding out about this issue must not have noticed that the very first paid opinion delivered by the king of all paid opinion givers was for a trimmed card.

It's all been down hill from there, and anybody who ever thought it wasn't, well, they were / are delusional.

EVERY card EVER given a paid opinion is suspect.

Break out those kitchen knives (at least that's what I use) and get back to where this hobby was when (many (most?) of us) started, and before it was hijacked.

Each and every one of us who has paid for an opinion is part of the problem.

Doug "but maybe I'm completely wrong" Goodman

Doug--This and a small irrigation screw driver takes 10 seconds. Safer than a kitchen knife

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by perezfan

... Not a good time to diminish the meticulous work that's being done for the good of the hobby, or bury our heads in the sand.

If that’s the message you got out of my post then it’s time for you to take a functional literacy comprehension course.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by steve B

I'd love to know how that edge roughening is done. That in my opinion is impressive. Criminal, but impressive.

Also starkly demonstrates the stupidity of rewarding cards with higher grades for having poor characteristics (i.e., rough cuts).

[perezfan]

Outside of Jeff L's post, all of the outrage on the last 3 pages is directed at Moser and PWCC (unless someone posts differently while I'm writing this). Many of the posts even suggest that PSA and/or Collectors Universe should expand their operations to become even more powerful than they already are. The power they already wield is the bulk of the problem here... It's what is motivating the "doctors" to alter/submit to PSA, and their Registry is what's driving the insane prices paid for these altered cards. They are making the Card Doctors rich.

Increasing PSA's presence will only add to the problem. I understand that most people here have a vested interest in PSA, with tens of thousands of dollars tied up in their holders. But check out the 2 latest reveals on BO...

The '51 Bowman Mantle, from which Moser profited tremendously, and the '52 Mays, in which he actually lost money (a chemical burn resulted from his "cleaning" process). The common denominator in all of this is PSA's failure to detect anything. So aside from the "vested interests", why is such blind faith put in PSA to fix it?

It's like asking the Mayor of Flint, MI to fix their water crisis.

[bobbyw8469]

The more I read that post over on Blowout, the more BLOWN AWAY I am at the shear depth and mass quantity of cards that have been tainted by this guy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

The more I read that post over on Blowout, the more BLOWN AWAY I am at the shear depth and mass quantity of cards that have been tainted by this guy.

It's not confined to him by any means Bob. He just left an easier path to retrace.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I understand that most people here have a vested interest in PSA, with tens of thousands of dollars tied up in their holders. . . . So aside from the "vested interests", why is such blind faith put in PSA to fix it?

It’s like the old saying, “Aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?”

I am afraid that the holder is now more important than its contents, if for no other reason than too many people have too much invested in the slab.

It’s always about the money. PSA is too big to fail.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

It’s like the old saying, “Aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?”

I am afraid that the holder is now more important than its contents, if for no other reason than too many people have too much invested in the slab.

It’s always about the money. PSA is too big to fail.

As I say, the flip is the commodity. Tis true.

[perezfan]

Correct. There are more card doctors than you can count. Moser is one... many more have been exposed on BO.

The common denominator is PSA authorization.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Also starkly demonstrates the stupidity of rewarding cards with higher grades for having poor characteristics (i.e., rough cuts).

A rough cut that was factory wouldn't bother me, and considering the lax production standards of the time, I don't think a factory rough cut should be penalized. Of course, edge wear on a rough cut should be, and it's usually more obvious than on a clean edge.

That someone can create a rough edge without having it look like its fake or removing enough to make it appear trimmed... That's some involved fakery.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

A rough cut that was factory wouldn't bother me, and considering the lax production standards of the time, I don't think a factory rough cut should be penalized. Of course, edge wear on a rough cut should be, and it's usually more obvious than on a clean edge.

That someone can create a rough edge without having it look like its fake or removing enough to make it appear trimmed... That's some involved fakery.

I've been undecided always about a factory rough cut that results in a badly angled corner. I think a deduction is warranted but get the opposite argument.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I've been undecided always about a factory rough cut that results in a badly angled corner. I think a deduction is warranted but get the opposite argument.

What I was told by SGC is that the grade is a more cumulative thing. One of the cards I asked about has fantastic corners, and still has a visible impression of the pressure plate that holds down the stack of paper being cut. It also has a flake of paper loss on one corner - less than the amount of rounding I've seen on higher graded cards, a tiny wrinkle in the border about halfway up the left side, a bit of mis-registration, and a bit less than average centering. So it only got a 50 because all the tiny problems brought it down.

I'd agree that if the cut is rough enough to make a corner look odd, that should be counted against.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Outside of Jeff L's post, all of the outrage on the last 3 pages is directed at Moser and PWCC (unless someone posts differently while I'm writing this). Many of the posts even suggest that PSA and/or Collectors Universe should expand their operations to become even more powerful than they already are. The power they already wield is the bulk of the problem here... It's what is motivating the "doctors" to alter/submit to PSA, and their Registry is what's driving the insane prices paid for these altered cards. They are making the Card Doctors rich.

Increasing PSA's presence will only add to the problem. I understand that most people here have a vested interest in PSA, with tens of thousands of dollars tied up in their holders. But check out the 2 latest reveals on BO...

The '51 Bowman Mantle, from which Moser profited tremendously, and the '52 Mays, in which he actually lost money (a chemical burn resulted from his "cleaning" process). The common denominator in all of this is PSA's failure to detect anything. So aside from the "vested interests", why is such blind faith put in PSA to fix it?

It's like asking the Mayor of Flint, MI to fix their water crisis.

Maybe it's easier to just blame PWCC because most around here didn't like them to begin with. But if PSA is unable to determine what cards have been altered, and can't even determine if modern cards have been trimmed, what are we paying them all of this money for?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Maybe it's easier to just blame PWCC because most around here didn't like them to begin with.

Cant imagine why

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

If PSA is unable to determine what cards have been altered, and can't even determine if modern cards have been trimmed, what are we paying them all of this money for?

To get the cards into the plastic holder so they can be sold for more money than if they were left raw. Once a trimmed card gets a grade, it is for all intents and purposes not a trimmed card anymore.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As a general proposition card doctors cater to the market. When low pop commons were the thing, they were slicing the cards that were notoriously off center to make cards that would barely qualify as 8s. I strongly suspect that with the centering mania of the last couple of years, they are focused on finding cards they can make into perfectly centered ones.

Never understood the current centering mania. Centering is a quality, but not the quality.

[Tennis13]

Originally Posted by drcy

Never understood the current centering mania. Centering is a quality, but not the quality.

So there is one specific collector I know out there who is a big supporter of PWCC’s guy Brent who is also obsessed (I mean OBSESSED) with centering and has shown me some great cards over the years. I just hope 1). He isn’t one of the bad guys which has been my fear but now as i write this, 2) I hope he hasn't been scammed in large size through all this because I quite liked the guy when i met him at Nationals in the past few years. I have seen people snickering at him on other forums, so I am not too hopeful.

[Tennis13]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Maybe it's easier to just blame PWCC because most around here didn't like them to begin with. But if PSA is unable to determine what cards have been altered, and can't even determine if modern cards have been trimmed, what are we paying them all of this money for?

That’s the $200 million question. I rejoined this hobby back in 2014 and one of the main reasons I buy graded is because I couldn’t tel a fake from a real card and the holder allowed me to sleep easy that they were legit.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Tennis13

That’s the $200 million question. I rejoined this hobby back in 2014 and one of the main reasons I buy graded is because I couldn’t tel a fake from a real card and the holder allowed me to sleep easy that they were legit.

I think you can still sleep easy that they can spot a legit from a fake, now a unconserved from a conserved, eh.

j@ff dr*m

[Jason]

I have been keeping up with everything and it is sad indeed. Early in my T210 collecting, I use to like having the highest graded examples whenever possible. I think I have about 300 that fit that description. I havent been (lucky) enough to be as picky the last couple of years. If SGC is anywhere near as affected as PSA/Beckett seem to be with alterations esp. trimming, then I may just bust all the plastic and go raw. It was fun while the illusion lasted.

[Goudey77]

A competent TPG who clearly defines restoration and is a great example of what can be done for cards.

Glad you naysayers of my earlier threads have now gravitated to focusing on the core TPG problem.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Originally Posted by Tennis13

That’s the $200 million question. I rejoined this hobby back in 2014 and one of the main reasons I buy graded is because I couldn’t tel a fake from a real card and the holder allowed me to sleep easy that they were legit.

Graded I think is just where the hobby was by 2014 - I think it was to the point where seeing nice raw cards made you wonder why they weren't graded esp. with unfamiliar sellers. I don't like doing it, but I buy graded cards without a back scan and sometimes even when the scan of the front isn't great because the grade gives me an idea of the condition. Even when I've had instances where I was disappointed, I always keep the card, just not worth the hassle of the return for me. I think the TPGs are doing ok with the grading part, its the authentication part that's the issue. Maybe these two things should be broken out and done by different teams. One team should determine whether the card is genuine and if so whether it has been doctored. Then a completely different team put the number grade on it.