Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[barrysloate]

What is the current state of the market for signed T206? Are collectors avoiding them, or are they taking the ostrich with his head in the sand approach and pretending that they are all good because they are slabbed? I don't follow these at all, so I have no idea what's doing.

[felada]

Seems as though that signed pre war hasn’t been as plentiful as it was a year or so ago where it seemed every auction had a lot of signed cards. People are probably just lying low until it blows over and then the cycle will start over again.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

What is the current state of the market for signed T206? Are collectors avoiding them, or are they taking the ostrich with his head in the sand approach and pretending that they are all good because they are slabbed? I don't follow these at all, so I have no idea what's doing.

I'm still buying, but very few people seem to be selling. In particular, I am looking for any signed pre-war cards that were certified by SGC, JSA, PSA or Beckett prior to 2015. Over on the B/S/T, I have offered to "reimburse" collectors for the price they paid to buy a signed T206 card, if they bought it at auction prior to 2015. I've gotten just one seller to bite.

I think it's fair to say that people are just holding tight for now, but also remember that nearly all of the signed T206 cards to hit REA, Hunt and Clean Sweep between 2015 and 2018 have been found to be forgeries. That's a huge portion of the overall population, so there is obviously a lot less supply to contend with, even if you accept that demand has gone down as a result of this scandal.

[ejharrington]

With the current scandal that has been uncovered regarding PSA, was there ever any resolution with regards to this situation? It seems to have faded away.

[swarmee]

Yep, who actually wrote the checks? PSA's grade guarantee does not cover autograph authentication misses. So if they wrote the check for the one they certified, that is an interesting precedent.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

With the current scandal that has been uncovered regarding PSA, was there ever any resolution with regards to this situation? It seems to have faded away.

It's true that there isn't much current discussion on the board about this scandal, but my understanding is that you can credit a forgery ring in Girard, OH (it's not just one person, but many involved), the FBI is involved, the AH's that have lost money are pursuing restitution in various ways, and that most of this process is likely to remain behind the scenes and take awhile. There's just not very many involved with any incentive to share it on a public forum.

If you remove the signed T206 cards that made their way to REA, Hunt and Clean Sweep from 2015 through 2018, most of which were forgeries, there really haven't been very many signed T206 cards on the market in the past 10 years. I would guess you will see very few new ones popping up going forward, which would also keep the public dialogue to a minimum.

Having said that, if you combine this scandal with the PSA/PWCC scandal it's obvious that the issue of baseball card fraud, signed or otherwise, being "condoned" by third-party authenticators, is doing anything but "fading away." Maybe it's because so much of my collection is based on signed pre-1916 cards, but every PSA/PWCC post rings so true to me, and I am holding out hope that, as a result of all of this mess, TPGs will make significant improvements with how they do business in our hobby, signed and unsigned cards alike.

[felada]

This seems to be getting lost with trimming scandal. What ever happened with the investigation?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by felada

This seems to be getting lost with trimming scandal. What ever happened with the investigation?

Pretty much nothing, it was swept under the rug very efficiently.

It did get SGC to close down its horrible auto authentication department but that is all.

[perezfan]

SCD did shut down its autograph division, and these phony/shaky signed T206s have stopped rearing their ugly heads for the most part.

But not sure whether anything else has transpired, or whether the forgers were even caught (much less arrested).

It is worth noting that this Autograph Scandal (while big news at the time) pales in comparison to the current Card Trimming Fraud/Scandal. In terms of dollars and profits commanded by the Crooks and TPGs, it's well over a 100 : 1 ratio.

[topcat61]

This was first discovered over a year ago and had morphed from Tobacco cards like T206 to 1930's and 40's gum cards. I suspect there's a percentage of collectors, dealers and auction houses who want this to go away.

To be honest, this cost a lot of money and integrity not to be solved so I'm surprised that people are as nonchalant about it. There are cards still out there so someone is still going to get dinged for a lot of money and lets not forget, forgery is still a major crime even if its a sports card. Someone knows more about this, like the FBI...or the grading companies...

[topcat61]

Somebody owes the people who got ripped off an explanation, whether it be the FBI, auction houses, grading companies or all of the above.

I'm angry about this, and with SGC. I had a pretty disturbing encounter with a grader from SGC on 11/5/18 which I wrote about on net54 -

[I]" I'm curious to know if any fellow net54 members have experienced similar issues dealing with SGC?

[I][I]While attending Boston's 2018 Shriners Show, I went to SGC to get this 1921 National Caramel card that once belonged to Buck Barker authenticated. I had several letters of Buck's with me for verification. The kid next to me said that that was an option that could be done. However, the conversation went down hill from there because the guy next to him told me the exact opposite -that they don't authenticate cards like this -despite corroborating evidence like other known cards and a letter Barker wrote to Walt Corson for comparison. The guy told me that they don't do handwriting analysis and that any corroborating material has to come from family members. Say what? Carter's card came directly from Doug Allen.

I then showed him a card they graded from Lionel Carter's collection and asked him when that card was sent in (2-15-07). I asked him who sent it in and he said it was an auction house, that it wasn't Carter himself. They refused to tell me who the auction house was but I already knew. It was Bill Mastro and Doug Allen, and there is video of that by both men on youtube...so why at this point be evasive?

Is SGC favoring auction houses over dealers and schmucks such as myself (a question SGC refused to answer when I asked)? How much money is going in to the these grading companies from the auction houses in order to receive preferential treatment?

If I was at an auction house, then they would grade it? The grader at SGC said I needed evidence and I showed it to him and he still refused. Is the auction house's expertise any better or worse than mine? This sounds like it's pay to play and the auction houses send these grading companies a shit load of money. How is this a level playing field? I left so bullshit that I ate not one, but two of those lousy hotdogs at the concession stand!

If you haven't seen these threads yet, I suggest that you do so. I also suggest that we start cleaning up this hobby fast and start holding people accountable. As I am to understand, Bill Mastro and company signed an agreement through his lawyers that he's never to do business again in the hobby.

To put it mildly, I wasn't thrilled by many of the responses to my thread about this, but unfortunately I feel a little vindicated. This isn't something to feel good about and I know how much money is involved which is why some dealers are willing to look the other way. It's only when you screw over the wrong person that change starts to come.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=1#post1830616

In my opinion, not enough people question these companies practices. In the above case, I gave them letters from Buck Barker to another collector and the guy said that they didn't do handwriting analysis...what is autograph authentication if not handwriting analysis? This is probably why they're not in that business anymore and why so many forged T206 autographs "apparently slipped" through their fingers.

I asked him point blank if auction houses get preferential treatment? In my opinion the man felt pretty comfortable lying to my face until I showed him the evidence and then he tried to throw me out of the building when I raised my concerns.

Now on a much larger scale, they were authenticating cards by either A) what was legit or B) Looking the other way from what I mentioned above or C) The forgers had someone on the inside or paying someone off.

This "Hobby" needs to be cleaned up and collectors need to take a good look in the mirror if they want this Hobby to remain viable in the 21st Century. As I see it, its not like millennials are getting into vintage cards these days. Theres way too much money floating around and tied up for collectors to want to get this cleaned up until something like PWCC happens and the FBI sends out subpoenas...when that shoe hits the ground, it's going to force all of us to take a step back and analyse what is going on and what needs to change to remain a viable hobby.