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#1
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: runscott
Pretty amazing - I bought this cap along with another one with a 'c' and the actual uniform that went with them. I later sold the cap separately, and now Mastro has magically turned what used to be a local team cap with a 'c' into a Clevenland Indians game-worn cap....nice trick. BTW - this cap was used by a team sponsored by a shoe repair shop...hardly the Cleveland Indians. |
#2
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: Dave
uh oh |
#3
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: Jay
Lew Lampson may have some splanin to do |
#4
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: JK
Just wondering if you've emailed Mastro and what their response was. |
#5
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: ScottIngold
Seems like after the REA email. People will be more detective like when going throught the auctions. |
#6
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Will I have to pay the full 20% BP for this one? |
#7
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: Dan Bretta
I wouldn't lay the blame on Mastro for this one...this is all Lou Lampson and the owner of the item. Scott do you remember who bought this cap from you? I recall bidding on some baseball caps you had put on ebay a while back, but I don't remember if this was one of them. |
#8
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
Scott, |
#9
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: runscott
Roostersports bought it from me on ebay. |
#10
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: Doug Allen
Based on the information provided here we will pull the item for additional research. |
#11
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: runscott
Well Doug, I don't remember what all was in my original ad, but it certainly didn't say it was a game-worn Cleveland Indians cap. |
#12
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: Doug Allen
Scott I am sure you didn't sell it indicating it was Cleveland. My question is if you had provenance indicating the cap was from a "club" team did you disclose this and did the provenance accompany the lot? |
#13
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: davidcycleback
If you remove/rewrite the LOA and rewrite the description, you can still auction it. Say it's not an Indians cap, but is a vintage original Spalding cap that is they same style as the Indians used. A vintage Spalding Cleveland Indians-style cap. |
#14
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: runscott
Yes, I always disclose everything I know about an item. I said that the cap was originally purchased with a uniform and another cap, that the "c" on both caps was exactly the same, but that the one you are selling appeared to be older than the other cap and uniform - I based this on the 8-panels, thinking it was 1915-20. |
#15
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: Doug Allen
Thanks Scott....did you disclose the fact it was from a club team sponsored by a shoe repair company? That is the provenance that is key to it not being a Cleveland gamer. Otherwise let me tell you I pulled the cap it is a high quality Spalding cap that sure appears professional quality. Let me know |
#16
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: Joe K.
Doug- You stated "...That is the provenance that is key to it not being a Cleveland gamer." But where is the provenance that is key TO IT BEING a Cleveland gamer??? |
#17
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: runscott
WOW!!!! You mean I had an ENTIRE Cleveland Indians uniform, along with TWO caps!?!?! |
#18
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: Steve Dawson
Just my two cents here, but could the "town club" have obtained old/used authentic caps from the Cleveland Indians, to later use themselves? |
#19
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: runscott
Here are the ebay descriptions - make of them what you will. Bidders on the 'cap' auction were referred to the uniform and other cap. I've attached the ebay auction photo for the uni, since it's no longer available - no, I didn't actually write the words 'shoe repair' in the auction description, but it's readable in the auction photo. In any event, it clearly DOES NOT say "Cleveland". Now you have everything that I have access to, so no point in me saying anything further - it would just be useless debate. |
#20
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: Doug Allen
Sorry Joe you are missing my point. When this cap stands on its own...being of high quality, being from the era and matching an existing style it can be attributed to the Cleveland Indians as it was. As I indicated an independant authenticator confirmed to me this is not much of a stretch. |
#21
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: Doug Allen
Took so long to post my response did not see Scott's post with descriptions and images. |
#22
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Anyone feel like spending more than $100 on an "authentic" cap or uniform from Mastro (or any other auction house) in the future? |
#23
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: Wesley
No thanks. |
#24
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: davidcycleback
That's why documented provenance is nice. If it is established that a Tigers cap came from the estate of a player or team employee or even a 1910s Tigers season ticket holder, that is nicer than it being discovered in a dumpster in Fon Du Lac. |
#25
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: Joe K.
Thanks Doug. I understand your points. But in my opinion, it does not stand on it’s own without any provenance. I am sure Mastro had no knowledge of it being from a town ball club, and authenticated it based on the 3 points you mentioned…..but for me that is too much of a stretch and not a reasonable enough conclusion for me to bid on it…just my IMO. For me, I need provenance – without any provenance there are other “non-Cleveland” conclusions that can be drawn that are just as likely and reasonable. |
#26
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
Expert texpert. |
#27
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: jeff drum
I would be very uncomfortable spending any significant sum of money on any game-used item from early baseball that did not come directly from a player's estate or next of kin. Didn't we have a similat type of thread about game used bat authenticating earlier this year? |
#28
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: davidcycleback
This illustrates the significance of provenance in authentication. With no provenance the cap was called a Cleveland Indians cap. With provenance, the cap was identified as not being a Cleveland Indians cap. The physical cap authenticates itself only as a perdiod Indians-style Pro Model cap. |
#29
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: martindl
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#30
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
So if he has a lousy rep in the community, shouldn't Mastro - you know, the company that had to increase its BP to 20% in order to continue to treat its customers at the highest level in terms of authenticating its wares - have protected us? Or is it just about the bottom line, buyer beware? |
#31
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
From what Doug posted it sounds like they were relying on Dan Knoll as well as Lampson, at least internally -- although it appears he may have been wrong on this one too. I don't think anyone is acting in bad faith here, given that most of these calls are judgment calls based on circumstantial evidence, it's really a question of what your starting point is and what the burden of proof is. Varying the starting presumption and burden of proof can greatly affect the outcome. |
#32
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: leon
The cap has been pulled. I am glad I don't collect memorabilia and auto's. In threads like this I do want to know who each person is.... |
#33
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: Joe Kirschner
Sure Leon. No problem - I understand. My name is Joe Kirschner. I have posted a few times in the past, but I am mostly a lurker. I am friends with many members of the VBC, including Dan Bretta, Scott and others. I don't collect too much cardboard...mainly vintage memorabilia these days. Here is a link to my site... |
#34
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: Bryan
I would love to know how Lou authenticated this. |
#35
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: runscott
Yes, Joe's a friend of mine who was the first collector I ever consulted about old uniforms (and I still do). Joe and I both collect vintage "no-name" stuff, which meant we never had to deal with the dirty world of "game used". |
#36
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: joe
I can only say that Lou has been around for about 25 years selling uniforms and game used items at shows and through advertising. He always had tons of uniforms at the shows in Michigan. I never collecting uniforms so i don't know him personally. |
#37
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Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians
Posted By: davidcycleback
Sometimes, the consignor gets most of the blame. |
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