Feller rookie?

[MACollector]

Why do people consider his 48 Bowman his rookie card when you also have the Leaf that same year and the Goudey 36 and 38 issue? Seems inconsistent with other “rookie” card determinations of vintage players.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Leaf is probably 49, but in any case Bowman is not even close to being his rookie card. Probably a Beckett thing.

[G1911]

Because the Bowman is common and thus more people are invested in pumping it.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by MACollector

Why do people consider his 48 Bowman his rookie card when you also have the Leaf that same year and the Goudey 36 and 38 issue? Seems inconsistent with other “rookie” card determinations of vintage players.

Because there is no consensus on what the definition of a "rookie" card should be. Many people, often based on a lot of early price guides like the Beckett's, still seem to follow the thinking that a "rookie" card has to be an actual card, so photos, postcards, premiums, stickers, etc., etc. do not count and cannot be true "rookie" cards. Also, many early guides pushed the idea that a true "rookie" card also could only be one available through a nationally distributed set. So regional or special issues did not count and could not be considered as true "rookie" cards. Most of these types of price and other card guides started to take prominence in the hobby beginning in the 1980's, when the original hobby boom started with the coming to middle age of the Baby Boomers who grew up with the start of the Topps, Bowman, and Leaf nationally distributed sets. So it was only natural that these guides would typically focus on cards and sets starting with those late '40s card sets, and think of cards mostly in terms of just those kinds of cards. For years the Beckett price guides I believe would show the '33 Goudey Babe Ruth cards as his "rookie" cards, even though that was actually Ruth's 19 season playing on the majors. Per their definitions and bias towards sets like the Leaf, Bowman, and Topps sets of the '40s and '50s, the '33 Goudey set was they very first nationally distributed card set that Ruth was featured in that went along with those '40s and '50s Leaf, Bowman, and Topps sets. Thus, the thinking by some that the '33 Goudey cards really are Ruth's true "rookie" cards, and likely also a main factor as to why the Goudey Ruth cards are so much more highly valued than most other earlier Ruth issues.

And like the '33 Goudey cards being shown as Ruth's "rookie" cards, many of those same early price guides and books would show the '48 Leaf cards as player's "rookie" cards, despite often having numerous other earlier cards and items issued for them, just as you mentioned Feller's '36 and '38 card issues, and other items of his released before his Leaf card. Those initial, early hobby guides and books influenced many, many people in the hobby, and those initial impressions and thinking have survived with many still in the hobby to this day. Meanwhile others, especially those into pre-war when there weren't annual releases of nationally distributed card sets every year, realized that the 1980's price guide/book definitions didn't really conform or relate to issues prior to the start of the Bowman/Topps era, and the Baby Boomer rise in collecting cards from when they were kids.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by G1911

Because the Bowman is common and thus more people are invested in pumping it.

Yep, that exactly. I've long said the actual Beckett definition should read
"Card issued closest to the players first game that exists in a big enough quantity that all dealers can potentially benefit from the hype"

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by BobC

Because there is no consensus on what the definition of a "rookie" card should be. Many people, often based on a lot of early price guides like the Beckett's, still seem to follow the thinking that a "rookie" card has to be an actual card, so photos, postcards, premiums, stickers, etc., etc. do not count and cannot be true "rookie" cards. Also, many early guides pushed the idea that a true "rookie" card also could only be one available through a nationally distributed set.

And like the '33 Goudey cards being shown as Ruth's "rookie" cards, many of those same early price guides and books would show the '48 Leaf cards as player's "rookie" cards, despite often having numerous other earlier cards and items issued for them, just as you mentioned Feller's '36 and '38 card issues, and other items of his released before his Leaf card. .

I think this is true generally, but it is still perplexing that Goudey is ok for Ruth's "rookie" but not for Feller's.

[Leon]

His rookies.

1937 R314C (V352) "Creamy" Wide Pens

1937 V300 OPC

[bcbgcbrcb]

From a thread that I posted all the way back in 2011. There likely have been a few set date changes and maybe a couple of new discoveries but this should cover just about everybody pre-war at least. From my rookie card guide, I have the rookie card parameters that I have adopted over the years as being the consensus amongst collectors and will post that in this thread shortly. As mentioned previously, you will never get everyone to agree on these but I think it’s a very good start.

After a tremendous amount of extensive research, I have come up with the below list as true Rookie Cards of each Baseball Hall of Famer:


Hank Aaron (1954 Topps/Johnston Cookies)
Grover Alexander (1913 National Game/Tom Barker Game)
Roberto Alomar (1988 Donruss)
Walter Alston (1956 Topps)
Sparky Anderson (1959 Topps)
Cap Anson (1887 Buchner)
Luis Aparicio (1956 Topps)
Luke Appling (1931-32 4-on-1 Exhibits)
Richie Ashburn (1949 Bowman)
Earl Averill (1929-30 R315)

Frank Baker (1909-11 T206/Colgan’s Chips/E90-1)
Dave Bancroft (1916 M101-5/Fleischmann Bakery)
Ernie Banks (1954 Topps)
Al Barlick (1955 Bowman)
Ed Barrow (1950-56 Callahan HOF)
Jake Beckley (1888 Old Judge)
Cool Papa Bell (1974 Laughlin)
Johnny Bench (1968 Topps)
Chief Bender (1903 E107)

Yogi Berra (1947 Tip Top Bread/Bond Bread/W602)
Bert Blyleven (1971 Topps)
Wade Boggs (1983 Topps/Fleer/Donruss)
Jim Bottomley (1923 Maple Crispette)
Lou Boudreau (1941 Double Play)
Roger Bresnahan (1903 W600)
George Brett (1975 Topps)
Lou Brock (1962 Topps)

Dan Brouthers (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
Mordecai Brown (1904 Allegheny) - Second Card (1904 W600)
Raymond Brown (1945-46 Caramelo Deportivo)
Willard Brown (1948-49 Toleteros)
Morgan Bulkeley (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Jim Bunning (1957 Topps)
Jesse Burkett (1893 Just So Tobacco) - Second Card (1903 W600)
Roy Campanella (1949 Bowman)

Rod Carew (1967 Topps)
Max Carey (1912 T207)
Steve Carlton (1965 Topps)
Gary Carter (1975 Topps)
Alexander Cartwright (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Orlando Cepeda (1958 Topps)
Henry Chadwick (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)

Frank Chance (1902 W600)
Happy Chandler (1950-56 Callahan HOF)
Oscar Charleston (1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez/Billiken)
Jack Chesbro (1902 W600)
Nestor Chylak (1955 Bowman)
Fred Clarke (1902 W600)
John Clarkson (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Four Base Hits)
Roberto Clemente (1955 Topps)
Ty Cobb (1907 W600/1907-09 Wolverine/Dietsche/Taylor/Seamless Steel Tubes Postcards)
Mickey Cochrane (1926 Spalding)

Eddie Collins (1907 W600)
Jimmy Collins (1903 E107)
Earle Combs (1926 Exhibits)
Charles Comiskey (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen/Lone Jack)
Jocko Conlan (1955 Bowman)
Tom Connolly (1950-56 Callahan HOF)
Roger Connor (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats)
Andy Cooper (1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez/Billiken/Nacionales)
Stan Coveleski (1920 W520/W522)

Sam Crawford (1902 W600)
Joe Cronin (1931-32 4-on-1 Exhibits)
Candy Cummings (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Kiki Cuyler (1925 Exhibits)
Ray Dandridge (1945-46 Caramelo Deportivo)
George Davis (1894 N142)
Andre Dawson (1977 Topps)
Leon Day (1949-50 Toleteros)
Dizzy Dean (1933 Goudey/George C Miller/Tatoo Orbit)
Ed Delahanty (1889 Old Judge)

Bill Dickey (1931 W502)
Martin Dihigo (1927-28 Mallorquina) - Second Card (1931 Doble Aguila)
Joe DiMaggio (1936 World Wide Gum/R314/R312)
Larry Doby (1949 Leaf/Bowman)
Bobby Doerr (1937 R314)
Barney Dreyfuss (1910 Tip Top Bread)
Don Drysdale (1957 Topps)
Hugh Duffy (1888 Old Judge)
Leo Durocher (1929-30 4-on-1 Exhibits)

Dennis Eckersley (1976 Topps/Hostess/Kellogg’s/SSPC)
Billy Evans (1922 Exhibits)
Johnny Evers (1903 W600)
Buck Ewing (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats)
Red Faber (1916 M101-5/4)
Bob Feller (1937 R314/OPC/4-on-1 Exhibits)
Rick Ferrell (1931-32 4-on-1 Exhibits) - Second Card (1933 Goudey/Worch Cigars)
Rollie Fingers (1969 Topps)

Carlton Fisk (1972 Topps)
Elmer Flick (1903 E107)
Whitey Ford (1951 Bowman/Berk Ross)
Rube Foster (1974 Laughlin)
Willie Foster (1927-28 Mallorquina) - Second Card (1974 Laughlin)
Nellie Fox (1951 Bowman)
Jimmy Foxx (1925-31 Postcard-Back Exhbits)
Ford Frick (1959 Topps)
Frank Frisch (1920 W519)

Pud Galvin (1887 Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
Lou Gehrig (1925 Exhibits)
Charlie Gehringer (1926 Exhibits)
Bob Gibson (1959 Topps)
Josh Gibson (1931 Harrison Studios Postcard) - Second Card (1950-51 Toleteros)
Warren Giles (1956 Topps)
Pat Gillick (1997 Canadian HOF)
Lefty Gomez (1932 US Caramel)
Joe Gordon (1939-46 Salutation Exhibits)

Goose Goslin (1922 E120/W573)
Rich Gossage (1973 Topps)
Frank Grant (1974 Laughlin)
Hank Greenberg (1934 Goudey)
Clark Griffith (1889 Old Judge)
Burleigh Grimes (1921 Exhibits/Oxford Confectionary)
Lefty Grove (1928 Star Player Candy)
Tony Gwynn (1983 Topps/Fleer/Donruss)
Chick Hafey (1928 Star Player Candy)

Jesse Haines (1921 Exhibits)
Billy Hamilton (1889 Old Judge)
Ned Hanlon (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
William Harridge (1956 Topps)
Bucky Harris (1921 Exhibits)
Gabby Hartnett (1922 E120/W573)
Doug Harvey (1984 Smokey the Bear)
Harry Heilmann (1917 Boston Store/Collins McCarthy/Standard Biscuit/Weil Baking)

Rickey Henderson (1980 Topps)
Bill Herman (1932 Denby Cigars Postcard)
Whitey Herzog (1957 Topps)
Pete Hill (1909 Cabanas) - Second Card (1910 Punch) - Third Card (1974 Laughlin)
Harry Hooper (1909-11 Colgan’s Chips)
Rogers Hornsby (1917 Boston Store/Collins McCarthy/Standard Biscuit/Weil Baking)
Waite Hoyt (1921 E121/Koester Bread)
Cal Hubbard (1955 Bowman)

Carl Hubbell (1929-30 R315)
Miller Huggins (1906 Fan Craze)
William Hulbert (1994 American Archives)
Catfish Hunter (1965 Topps)
Monte Irvin (1948-49 El Indio)
Reggie Jackson (1969 Topps/Milton Bradley)
Travis Jackson (1923 William Paterson)
Fergie Jenkins (1966 Topps)
Hugh Jennings (1894 Alpha Photo Engraving) - Second Card (1902 W600)

Ban Johnson (1906 Fan Craze)
Judy Johnson (1974 Laughlin)
Walter Johnson (1908 Rose Company Postcards)
Addie Joss (1903 E107)
Al Kaline (1954 Topps)
Tim Keefe (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats)
Willie Keeler (1902 W600)
George Kell (1947 Tip Top Bread)
Joe Kelley (1894 Alpha Photo Engraving) - Second Card (1902 W600)

George Kelly (1920 W520/W522/W516-1)
King Kelly (1887 Old Judge/Gypsy Queen/Four Base Hits/Buchner)
Harmon Killebrew (1955 Topps)
Ralph Kiner (1947 Tip Top Bread/Bond Bread/W602)
Chuck Klein (1925-31 Postcard-Back Exhibits)
Bill Klem (1922 Exhibits)
Sandy Koufax (1955 Topps)
Bowie Kuhn (1969 Topps Test Issue)

Nap Lajoie (1902 W600)
Kenesaw Landis (1944-52 Albertype HOF Postcards)
Barry Larkin (1986 Sportflics Rookies)
Tommy LaSorda (1954 Topps)
Tony Lazzeri (1926 Exhibits/Spalding)
Bob Lemon (1947 Van Patrick Postcards)
Buck Leonard (1974 Laughlin)
Fred Lindstrom (1925-31 W590)
Pop Lloyd (1910 Punch) - Second Card (1923-24 Billiken/Tomas Gutierrez)
Ernie Lombardi (1933 Tatoo Orbit)

Al Lopez (1930 Baguer Chocolate)
Ted Lyons (1924 Diaz Cigarettes)
Connie Mack (1887 Old Judge)
Biz Mackey (1924-25 Aguilitas)
Larry MacPhail (1973-80 TCMA All-Time Greats)
Lee MacPhail (1980-01 Perez Steele HOF Postcards)
Effa Manley (1996 Negro League Playing Cards)
Mickey Mantle (1951 Bowman)
Heinie Manush (1929 R316 Kashin)
Rabbit Maranville (1912 Boston Daily American Postcards)

Juan Marichal (1961 Topps)
Rube Marquard (1909-11 T206/Colgan’s Chips/E90-1)
Ed Mathews (1952 Topps)
Christy Mathewson (1903 E107)
Willie Mays (1951 Bowman)
Bill Mazeroski (1957 Topps)
Joe McCarthy (1909-11 Colgan’s Chips)
Tommy McCarthy (1887 Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
Willie McCovey (1960 Topps)

Joe McGinnity (1902 W600)
Bill McGowan (1948 Safe-T-Card)
John McGraw (1894 Alpha Photo Engraving) - Second Card (1902 W600)
Bill McKechnie (1912 T207)
Bid McPhee (1888 Old Judge)
Joe Medwick (1933 Worch Cigars)
Jose Mendez (1910 Punch) - Second Card (1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez/Nacionales/Billiken)
Johnny Mize (1936 R312)

Paul Molitor (1978 Topps)
Joe Morgan (1965 Topps)
Eddie Murray (1978 Topps/Kellogg’s/Hostess)
Stan Musial (1946 Sears Cardinals Postcard)
Hal Newhouser (1939-46 Salutation Exhibits)
Kid Nichols (1889 Old Judge)

Phil Niekro (1964 Topps)
Hank O'Day (1887 Old Judge)
Walter O'Malley (1988 Rini Postcards)
Jim O'Rourke (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats/H812)
Mel Ott (1929 R316 Kashin/Leader Novelty Company)
Satchell Paige (1949 Leaf/Bowman)
Jim Palmer (1966 Topps)
Herb Pennock (1921-23 National Caramel)
Tony Perez (1965 Topps)
Gaylord Perry (1962 Topps)

Eddie Plank (1902 W600)
Alex Pompez (2006 Yellow HOF Postcards)
Cum Posey (2006 Yellow HOF Postcards)
Kirby Puckett (1984 Fleer Update)
Charles Radbourne (1886 Red Stocking Cigars)
Pee Wee Reese (1941 Double Play/Play Ball)

Jim Rice (1975 Topps)
Sam Rice (1917 Collins McCarthy/Boston Store/Standard Biscuit/Weil Baking)
Branch Rickey (1914 Cracker Jack)
Cal Ripken Jr. (1982 Topps/Fleer/Donruss)
Eppa Rixey (1916 M101-5/4)
Phil Rizzuto (1941 Double Play)
Robin Roberts (1949 Bowman)
Brooks Robinson (1957 Topps)
Frank Robinson (1956 Kahn’s)
Jackie Robinson (1947 Bond Bread)

Wilbert Robinson (1887 Kalamazoo Bats)
Bullet Rogan (1974 Laughlin)
Edd Roush (1915 Cracker Jack)
Red Ruffing (1924 Diaz Cigarettes)
Jacob Ruppert (1962 Topps)
Amos Rusie (1889 Old Judge)
Babe Ruth (1916 M101-5/4)
Nolan Ryan (1968 Topps)
Ryne Sandberg (1982 Red Lobster)

Ron Santo (1961 Topps)
Louis Santop (1974 Laughlin)
Ray Schalk (1914 Cracker Jack)
Mike Schmidt (1973 Topps)
Red Schoendienst (1946 Sears Cardinals Postcards)
Tom Seaver (1967 Topps)
Frank Selee (1904 Allegheny) - Second Card (1980-01 Perez Steele HOF Postcards)
Joe Sewell (1921-23 National Caramel)
Al Simmons (1923-24 Exhibits)

George Sisler (1916 M101-5/4)
Enos Slaughter (1941 Double Play/W754)
Hilton Smith (1948-49 Toleteros)
Ozzie Smith (1978 Family Fun Center)
Duke Snider (1949 Bowman)
Billy Southworth (1919-21 W514)
Warren Spahn (1947 Tip Top Bread/W602)
Albert Spalding (1888 G & B Chewing Gum) - Second Card (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Tris Speaker (1909-11 T206/Colgan’s Chips/E90-1)

Willie Stargell (1963 Topps)
Turkey Stearnes (1978 Laughlin)
Casey Stengel (1916 M101-5/Fleischmann Bakery)
Bruce Sutter (1977 Topps)
Mule Suttles (1974 Laughlin)
Don Sutton (1966 Topps)
Ben Taylor (1978 Laughlin)
Bill Terry (1925 Exhibits)

Sam Thompson (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
Joe Tinker (1903 W600)
Cristobal Torriente (1923-24 Billiken/Tomas Gutierrez/Nacionales)
Pie Traynor (1922 E120/W573)
Dazzy Vance (1924 Diaz Cigarettes)
Arky Vaughan (1933 Worch Cigars/Goudey)
Bill Veeck (1952 St. Louis Browns Postcards)
Rube Waddell (1902 W600)
Honus Wagner (1902 W600)

Bobby Wallace (1902 W600)
Ed Walsh (1904 W600)
Lloyd Waner (1927 York Caramel)
Paul Waner (1925-31 Postcard-Back Exhibits)
John Ward (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats)
Earl Weaver (1969 Topps)
George Weiss (1973-80 TCMA All-Time Greats)
Mickey Welch (1886 N167/H812/N-UNC)
Willie Wells (1974 Laughlin)
Zach Wheat (1909-11 T206)
Deacon White (1887 Buchner)

Sol White (1978 Laughlin)
Hoyt Wilhelm (1952 Topps)
J.L. Wilkinson (2006 Yellow HOF Postcards)
Billy Williams (1961 Topps)
Dick Williams (1952 Topps)
Joe Williams (1974 Laughlin)
Ted Williams (1939 Play Ball/R303A)
Vic Willis (1903 E107)
Hack Wilson (1925 W504)
Jud Wilson (1974 Laughlin)

Dave Winfield (1974 Topps)
George Wright (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Harry Wright (1887 Old Judge)
Early Wynn (1948 Safe-T-Card/Gunther Beer Postcards)
Carl Yastrzemski (1960 Topps)
Tom Yawkey (1959 Ted Williams Set)
Cy Young (1893 Just So Tobacco) - Second Card (1902 W600)
Ross Youngs (1919-21 W514)
Robin Yount (1975 Topps/Hostess)

LATEST HOF INDUCTEES

Craig Biggio (1988 Score Traded/Fleer Update)
Bobby Cox (1967 Topps Venezuelan)
Tom Glavine (1988 Donruss/Fleer/Tops/Score)
Ken Griffey Jr. (1989 Upper Deck/Bowman/Fleer/Donruss)
Randy Johnson (1989 Upper Deck/Topps/Fleer/Donruss/Score)
Tony LaRussa (1964 Topps)

Greg Maddux (1987 Donruss/Leaf)
Pedro Martinez (1991 Upper Deck Final Edition)
Mike Piazza (1992 Bowman)
John Smoltz (1988 Fleer Update)
Frank Thomas (1990 Leaf/Bowman/Topps/Score)
Joe Torre (1962 Topps)

[bcbgcbrcb]

Parameters

[jethrod3]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

After a tremendous amount of extensive research, I have come up with the below list as true Rookie Cards of each Baseball Hall of Famer

Thanks for the comprehensive list. Just one friendly amendment, as we say in some of our committee meetings! Unless I missed him, I didn't see Gil Hodges included in the list at the bottom. Was curious about his rookie card. (BTW, I know I would have missed a ton of people myself in building such a list, and probably messed up the cards---daunting task!)

[bcbgcbrcb]

You’re right, Hodges is missing along with all of the other electees for the past few years. My original list ran through 2011 and a few years ago I went back and updated again through that year. I’ll try to do that again soon.

As for Hodges, I would go with the 1947 Bond Bread issue for his rookie card of choice.

[Rhotchkiss]

Just like with Wagner, I think W600 Type 1 Mathewson is his rookie (e107 would be second with w600 type 2 and 1904 Allegheny thereafter)

Awesome list. Thanks for posting

[MACollector]

Makes sense. I don’t think I had heard people call Ruth’s 33 Goudeys his rookie card before but that’s the card they use for Ruth in registries probably since it’s more available as you suggested. Some true rookies just don’t have enough copies to go around! But it’s interesting people consider Musial Leaf or Bowman his rookie card but not the Feller Leaf!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by MACollector

Makes sense. I don’t think I had heard people call Ruth’s 33 Goudeys his rookie card before but that’s the card they use for Ruth in registries probably since it’s more available as you suggested. Some true rookies just don’t have enough copies to go around! But it’s interesting people consider Musial Leaf or Bowman his rookie card but not the Feller Leaf!

Yeah, go back and find some old Beckett price guides from a few decades back, or maybe Tuff Stuffs, or some other old price guides/books, and you'll see how Ruth's rookie was considered by some as his '33 Goudey cards. Was the same thing with that 48-49 Leaf set listing a ton of rookie cards for players that had been on many different issues years earlier, like the reference made to Feller's cards form the '30s.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I also thought that the W600 Matty was his rookie card but if I recall correctly, it was determined that the Type I Matty was initially released in 1903 as opposed to Wagner in 1902. Since the W600’s continued to be distributed over many years, I went with the E107 as the dating was more specific. I did the same thing with every situation on my list where there were multiple cards initially issued during the same year, I went with the one(s) with most specific dating to that year as opposed to date ranges.

[tobychin]

What about the R311 Joe DiMaggio?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by tobychin

What about the R311 Joe DiMaggio?

John,

Are you possibly mistaken and meant to say the R313 National Chicle Fine Pen card with DiMaggio? IIRC there is no R311 card of DiMaggio, in either the glossy or leather finish.


Thanks to John/tobychin for correcting me in regard to the R311 cards. I forgot about the multi-player leather version R311 card of DiMaggio with Lazzeri and Crosetti.

Still leaves my question as to why DiMaggio's R313 National Chicle Fin Pen card isn't also considered as one of his rookie cards, along with the WWG, R312, and R314 cards Phil listed.

[bcbgcbrcb]

The R311 DiMaggio is a paper premium and larger size than the max for the parameters that I stated (cabintet card size).

[jethrod3]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

You’re right, Hodges is missing along with all of the other electees for the past few years. My original list ran through 2011 and a few years ago I went back and updated again through that year. I’ll try to do that again soon.

As for Hodges, I would go with the 1947 Bond Bread issue for his rookie card of choice.

Thanks. I contemplated buying the "other" Hodges rookie care option before his HOF election but sat on my hands and now I don't have either one! BTW, I agree with your parameters/criteria for rookie card determination!

[tobychin]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

The R311 DiMaggio is a paper premium and larger size than the max for the parameters that I stated (cabintet card size).

Phil T3’s are 8 by 5.75 inches and R311s are 8x6 so what is the cutoff. I really do appreciate the work you have done putting this listing together. Thanks.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

I also thought that the W600 Matty was his rookie card but if I recall correctly, it was determined that the Type I Matty was initially released in 1903 as opposed to Wagner in 1902. Since the W600’s continued to be distributed over many years, I went with the E107 as the dating was more specific. I did the same thing with every situation on my list where there were multiple cards initially issued during the same year, I went with the one(s) with most specific dating to that year as opposed to date ranges.

Not to go too far off subject, but there is no W600 Type 1 of Matty.

His W600 Type 2 and E107 cards were both issued in 1903.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities

Not to go too off subject, but there is no W600 Type 1 of Matty.

His W600 Type 2 and E107 cards were both issued in 1903.

Right!! I have a type 3. I knew what I had was his second w600. I just thought it was a type 2 to his rookie, the type 1.

In that case, which is the proper rookie, w600 type 2 or e107? It seems Phil’s explanation and conclusion that it’s e107 is correct, no?

Wagner has a type 1, and that is his rookie (not e107)

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Right!! I have a type 3. I knew what I had was his second w600. I just thought it was a type 2 to his rookie, the type 1.

In that case, which is the proper rookie, w600 type 2 or e107? It seems Phil’s explanation and conclusion that it’s e107 is correct, no?

Wagner has a type 1, and that is his rookie (not e107)

Ryan - First of all, what a fantastic W600 Wagner.

Yes, Mathewson has a W600 Type 2 that was issued in 1903. His E107 was also issued in 1903. I assume that both would be considered his rookie card.

Wagner has a W600 Type 1 that was issued in 1902. Since his E107 was not issued, until 1903, I consider his W600 Type 1 his rookie card - unless you want to count his 1899 M101-1 The Sporting Life and National Copper Plate supplements

[Baseball Rarities]

Also, FWIW, I have always considered Feller's 1937 V300 and R314 cards to be his "rookies."

[bcbgcbrcb]

The limit that I use size wise for “cards” is standard cabinet card, which is approximately 4.25” X 6.50”. The W600’s go a little above and beyond but are such an integral part of the hobby that I didn’t want to omit them from rookie card consideration. Another major factor in this decision has to do with the card stock used, they were obviously intended to be collected and saved long term as opposed to many of the other “oversize” items of the era which were made of much thinner paper, making it much more difficult for them to have been so widely collected. The W600’s also were an obvious source of advertising and distributed across the entire US via mail, all additional characteristics in their favor as compared to other oversize issues of the era.

[Leon]

Thanks for the info, Kevin.

Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities

Ryan - First of all, what a fantastic W600 Wagner.

Yes, Mathewson has a W600 Type 2 that was issued in 1903. His E107 was also issued in 1903. I assume that both would be considered his rookie card.

Wagner has a W600 Type 1 that was issued in 1902. Since his E107 was not issued, until 1903, I consider his W600 Type 1 his rookie card - unless you want to count his 1899 M101-1 The Sporting Life and National Copper Plate supplements

[puckpaul]

Yeah, talking my book here, but i have to disagree and would consider the Copper Plate and Sporting News to be cards and rookie cards. They were clearly collectable, had biographies on the back, were issued in series, by mail, and as a set in binders. Many of the photos used are also repeated in the E107 set and others.

But none of these designations are mutually exclusive, and everyone has their opinion. A professional card of Wagner that predates the W600 by 3-4 years seems to be a very strong contender. If they were graded by PSA (and more populous) they would be ascendant….maybe someday! They are my favorite cards regardless, really beautiful to look at in person.

Meanwhile, this Matthewson is a Type II I guess? I always forget the attributes of those vs Type I.

[Baseball Rarities]

Paul - your W600 Matty is a Type 3.

[T205 GB]

Works the same way as Ruth, Mantle, and Gehrig's rc cards. It is what the universe wanted. lol

[puckpaul]

Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities

Paul - your W600 Matty is a Type 3.

Right, thanks, refreshed my memory….1903-04 issue.

[Exhibitman]

1960 Nu-Card Scoops Willie McCovey
1949 Exhibit Doby (the version with “An Exhibit Card” was issued in 1949).
1949 Exhibit Paige (the card has “An Exhibit Card” and was issued in 1949).
1949 Exhibit Ashburn (the version with “An Exhibit Card” was issued in 1949).
1929-30 Cienfuegos Postcard Cool Papa Bell
1957 Don Drysdale McCarthy PC (I have a signed one mailed from Brooklyn in 1957)

It also depends on your definitions. If you throw out whole categories like team issued PCs, but allow the 1946 Sears PCs, you are making some pretty random distinctions and missing stuff. Not to mention picture packs. Why is a paoer item from a picture pack not permanent enough but a paper issue like a Toletero ok? And size? You establish a size limit then violate it immediately with the W600s.

Old Cardboard has a similar list and it is more expansive.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Paul:

When I was doing the HOF rookies collection, the M101-1 (or National Copper Plate) Wagner was my choice too for representation in my personal collection. It certainly is a rookie and earlier than any other individual Wagner unless you want to go back in time and argue the Reccius card . However, it's obviously a paper premium and not a card so does not qualifiy for rookie card status. Mine was in a BGS holder too, still doesn't make it a card because it was graded and encapsulated.

FWIW I believe that I was the first collector to have M101-1's, M101-2's, M101-7's and M113's graded and encapsulated by Beckett (they were the only TPG at the time to have a large enough holder to do it) back in the late 2000's. All are paper premiums and not cards, being graded does not change that.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

All are paper premiums and not cards, being graded does not change that.

I totally agree with this. The supplements are awesome, but they are not cards. Otherwise, newspaper pictures, or even this - from March 4, 1916, could be considered a rookie (assuming we do not include team PCs)

[BobC]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Paul:

When I was doing the HOF rookies collection, the M101-1 (or National Copper Plate) Wagner was my choice too for representation in my personal collection. It certainly is a rookie and earlier than any other individual Wagner unless you want to go back in time and argue the Reccius card . However, it's obviously a paper premium and not a card so does not qualifiy for rookie card status. Mine was in a BGS holder too, still doesn't make it a card because it was graded and encapsulated.

FWIW I believe that I was the first collector to have M101-1's, M101-2's, M101-7's and M113's graded and encapsulated by Beckett (they were the only TPG at the time to have a large enough holder to do it) back in the late 2000's. All are paper premiums and not cards, being graded does not change that.

Very true and great comments Phil. And that is exactly where you can run into some great questions/tough decisions as a collector. For example, there is the one M101-2 Sporting News Supplement that shows four current umpires, including two HOFers, Bill Klem and Billy Evans. So, if someone is trying to complete a master HOF card collection, especially during their playing days or career in MLB, do you go after this 1910 supplement for these two as in career examples, or do you hold off and look/wait for later cards of these two, like Klem's 1935 Schutter-Johnson card, or Billy Evans 1961 Fleer card? In the end, it is up to each individual collector to decide what it is that they like and prefer. At the end of the day, there really is no one exact, correct answer to the question of what is a player's/person's true rookie card. Now if the question instead is what is a player's/person's first appearance on a collectible as a major league player/employee/executive/etc., that is a much easier and actually more definitively discernible question.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I totally agree with this. The supplements are awesome, but they are not cards. Otherwise, newspaper pictures, or even this - from March 4, 1916, could be considered a rookie (assuming we do not include team PCs)

Everyone has their own definitions, but I also consider items like the M101-1 and M101-2 The Sporting News and W601 The Sporting Life issues as being supplements, but are much more "card-like" than a magazine or its cover. These were stand alone items that were obviously made to be collected individually on their own and were part of a set. They were even advertised that way within their publication. The backs of the M101-1s even have detailed biographies which are very much like cards. Heck, even Jefferson Burdick game them their own ACC number within the "M" Periodical Issues heading.

I like magazines and they make great collectibles, but these The Sporting New supplements were made to be collected and are much more card like IMHO. Yes, they are on thinner stock and somewhat oversized, but they are very similar to the some of the premiums put out in the day from the likes of Butterfinger, National Chicle, Goudey, etc.

For comparison, this 1905 W601 The Sporting Life Detroit composite sold for $8,400. The same image is available on the front cover of their weekly newspaper and would only sell for a small fraction of that.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Thanks, Bob. Since you mentioned it, here is the list that I compiled all the way back around 2010 identifying the earliest professional baseball collectible for everyone in the BB HOF at that time:

1952 Hank Aaron (Indianapolis Clowns P/C)
1911 Grover Alexander (M101-2)
1987 Roberto Alomar (Wichita Minor League)
1937 Walter Alston (Rochester Team Premium)
1958 Sparky Anderson (LaPresse)
1868 Cap Anson (Marshalltown Team Photo) courtesy of Corey S. & Kevin S.
1953 Luis Aparicio (Venezuelan League)
1931 Luke Appling (4-on-1 Exhibits)
1948 Richie Ashburn (Philadelphia Bulletin/M114)
1926 Earl Averill (Zeenuts)

1908 Frank Baker (Reading Team P/C)
1909 Dave Bancroft (Superior RPPC)
1954 Ernie Banks (Topps/All-Star Photo Pack)
1955 Al Barlick (Bowman)
1896 Ed Barrow (Paterson Team Cabinet)
1887 Jake Beckley (Lincoln Team Cabinet) courtesy of Clint
1926 Cool Papa Bell (St. Louis Stars Team P/C)
1967 Johnny Bench (Cincinnati Team Issue)
1903 Chief Bender (E107/W600)

1946 Yogi Berra (Newark Team Photo)
1970 Bert Blyleven (Minnesota Team Issue)
1981 Wade Boggs (TCMA - Pawtucket)
1921 Jim Bottomley (Packers Team Photo)
1941 Lou Boudreau (Double Play)
1903 Roger Bresnahan (W600)
1971 George Brett (Billings Team Premium)
1962 Lou Brock (Topps)

1879 Dan Brouthers (NY Clipper Woodcut)
1901 Mordecai Brown (Terre-Haute Team Composite)
1935 Raymond Brown (Negro League Broadside)
1935 Willard Brown (KC Monarchs Team Photo)
1880's Morgan Bulkeley (Matthew Brady Cabinet)
1956 Jim Bunning (Mariano Team Photo)
1890 Jesse Burkett (Sporting Times - Giants Team Supplement)
1943 Roy Campanella (Mexican League Team P/C)

1965 Rod Carew (Orlando Team Photo Premium)
1908 Max Carey (Concordia Team Cabinet)
1965 Steve Carlton (Topps/St. Louis Team Issue)
1975 Gary Carter (Topps/TCMA IL All-Stars)
1840's Alexander Cartwright (Knickerbockers Team Dag Photo) courtesy of Barry S.
1955 Orlando Cepeda (Salem Team Photo)
1861 Henry Chadwick (St. George's Team Photo) courtesy of Barry S.

1898 Frank Chance (Chicago Team Photo Premium)
1949 Happy Chandler (Eureka)
1914 Oscar Charleston (US Military Team P/C)
1895 Jack Chesbro (Springfield Team Photo Supplement)
1955 Nestor Chylak (Bowman)
1898 Fred Clarke (Louisville Cabinet Card)
1885 John Clarkson (Harper's Weekly Chicago Team Photo Woodcut)
1952 Roberto Clemente (Santurce Team Composite)
1905 Ty Cobb (W601 - Detroit Team Composite Premium)
1924 Mickey Cochrane (Zeenuts)

1907 Eddie Collins (W600)
1893 Jimmy Collins (Buffalo Team Photo Cabinet)
1922 Earle Combs (Louisville Team Photo)
1879 Charles Comiskey (Dubuque Team Cabinet) courtesy of Jay M.
1931 Jocko Conlan (LaPresse)
1950 Tom Connolly (Callahan HOF)
1879 Roger Connor (NY Clipper Woodcuts)
1923 Andy Cooper (Tomas Gutierrez/Nacionales)
1909 Stan Coveleski (Lancaster Team P/C)

1899 Sam Crawford (Chatham Team Cabinet) courtesy of Clint
1931 Joe Cronin (Washington Team Issue/4-on-1 Exhibits)
1873 Candy Cummings (Baltimore Team Composite) courtesy of Corey S.
1924 Kiki Cuyler (M114)
1944 Ray Dandridge (Mexican League Premium)
1890 George Davis (Ryder Studio Cabinet/Sporting Life Cleveland Team Woodcut)
1977 Andre Dawson (Topps/Montreal Team Issue Photo)
1935 Leon Day (Negro League Broadside)
1929 Dizzy Dean (San Antonio Team Composite Premium)
1889 Ed Delahanty (N172/MacIntire Studios Cabinet)

1931 Bill Dickey (W502/4-on-1 Exhibits)
1927 Martin Dihigo (Mallorquina)
1934 Joe DiMaggio (Zeenuts)
1946 Larry Doby (Newark Eagles X-Mas Card)
1937 Bobby Doerr (Goudey Wide-Pen Premiums)
1902 Barney Dreyfuss (Pittsburgh Gazette Supplement)
1955 Don Drysdale (Montreal Team Photo Premium)
1887 Hugh Duffy (Lowell Team Cabinet) courtesy of Jay M.
1929 Leo Durocher (4-on-1 Exhibits)

1976 Dennis Eckersley (Topps/SSPC)
1910 Billy Evans (M101-2)
1903 Johnny Evers (W600)
1885 Buck Ewing (Harper's Weekly Woodcuts)
1914 Red Faber (Chicago Team P/C)
1936 Bob Feller (Boston American Stamps/Press Photo)
1931 Rick Ferrell (4-on-1 Exhibits)
1967 Rollie Fingers (Birmingham Team Photo)

1968 Carlton Fisk (Waterloo Team Photo) courtesy of Tony S.
1899 Elmer Flick (M101-1)
1951 Whitey Ford (Bowman/Berk Ross)
1909 Rube Foster (Leland Team P/C)
1927 Willie Foster (Mallorquina)
1945 Nellie Fox (Lancaster Team Photo)
1925 Jimmy Foxx (Exhibits P/C Backs)
1949 Ford Frick (Eureka)
1920 Frank Frisch (W519)

1879 Pud Galvin (Buffalo Team Photo Trade Card)
1922 Lou Gehrig (Hartford Team Photo)
1926 Charlie Gehringer (Exhibits)
1957 Bob Gibson (Columbus Team Photo Premium)
1928 Josh Gibson (Pittsburgh Crawfords Team Photo)
1956 Warren Giles (Topps)
1962 Pat Gillick (Elmira Team Photo) courtesy of Jodi B.
1929 Lefty Gomez (Zeenuts)
1938 Joe Gordon (Newark Team Photo)

1922 Goose Goslin (E120)
1972 Rich Gossage (Puerto Rican League Sticker)
1887 Frank Grant (Buffalo Team Cabinet)
1934 Hank Greenberg (Goudey/Batter-Up/Diamond Stars)
1889 Clark Griffith (N172)
1920 Burleigh Grimes (M114)
1921 Lefty Grove (Tip Top Bread/Baltimore Team Panorama)
1982 Tony Gwynn (TCMA - Hawaii)
1926 Chick Hafey (St. Louis Cardinals Team P/C)

1916 Jesse Haines (Springfield Team Panorama)
1889 Billy Hamilton (N172)
1879 Ned Hanlon (Albany Team Cabinet)
1956 William Harridge (Topps)
1921 Bucky Harris (Exhibits)
1922 Gabby Hartnett (E120/W573)
1984 Doug Harvey (Smokey the Bear Padres)
1913 Harry Heilmann (Zeenuts)

1977 Rickey Henderson (Chong - Modesto A's)
1929 Bill Herman (Louiville Team Photo)
1957 Whitey Herzog (Topps/Washington Team Issue)
1909 Pete Hill (Cabanas)
1907 Harry Hooper (St. Mary's P/C)
1915 Rogers Hornsby (Denison Team P/C)
1921 Waite Hoyt (American Caramel)
1955 Cal Hubbard (Bowman)

1926 Carl Hubbell (Toronto Team Panorama)
1904 Miller Huggins (W601)
1889 William Hulbert (Spalding Baseball Guide)
1965 Catfish Hunter (Topps/Athletics Team Issue Photo)
1948 Monte Irvin (El Indio)
1967 Reggie Jackson (Birmingham Team Photo)
1923 Travis Jackson (William Paterson/M114 NY Giants Team Premium)
1966 Fergie Jenkins (Topps/Chicago Team Issue)
1894 Hugh Jennings (Alpha Photo Engraving)

1903 Ban Johnson (Horner American League Composite)
1921 Judy Johnson (Original Cabinet Photo) courtesy of D. Granger
1907 Walter Johnson (Weisner Cabinet) courtesy of Jeff Prizner
1903 Addie Joss (E107/W600)
1954 Al Kaline (Topps/All-Star Photo Pack)
1879 Tim Keefe (New York Clipper Woodcut)
1892 Willie Keeler (Binghamton Team Cabinet)
1945 George Kell (Philadelphia Team Photo Pack)
1894 Joe Kelley (Alpha Photo Engraving)

1914 George Kelly (Spokane Team Photo P/C)
1879 King Kelly (1879 New York Clipper Woodcut)
1955 Harmon Killebrew (Topps/Topps Double Headers)
1941 Ralph Kiner (Albany Team Photo)
1925 Chuck Klein (Exhibit P/C Backs)
1910 Bill Klem (M101-2)
1955 Sandy Koufax (Topps/Golden Stamps)
1969 Bowie Kuhn (Topps Promo)

1897 Nap Lajoie (Leslie's Illustrated)
1916 Kenesaw Landis (Hartford Team Photo)
1986 Barry Larkin (Sportsflics Update)
1950 Tommy LaSorda (Big League Stars)
1922 Tony Lazzeri (Zeenuts)
1946 Bob Lemon (Cleveland Team Photo P/C)
1935 Buck Leonard (Negro League Broadside)
1924 Fred Lindstrom (M114 - Giants Team Photo Premium)
1910 Pop Lloyd (Punch)
1927 Ernie Lombardi (Oakland Team Photo)

1930 Al Lopez (Baguer Chocolates)
1924 Ted Lyons (Diaz Cigarettes)
1887 Connie Mack (N172)
1924 Biz Mackey (Aguilitas)
1947 Larry MacPhail (True Comics)
1981 Lee MacPhail (Perez Steele HOF P/C)
1996 Effa Manley (Negro League Playing Cards)
1948 Mickey Mantle (Independence Team Panorama)
1923 Heinie Manush (Tomas Gutierrez - Detroit Team Composite)
1912 Rabbit Maranville (Boston P/C)

1960 Juan Marichal (Tacoma Giants)
1907 Rube Marquard (Canton Team P/C)
1950 Ed Mathews (Atlanta Team Photo)
1901 Christy Mathewson (Police Gazette Supplements)
1951 Willie Mays (Bowman/M114)
1956 Bill Mazeroski (Pittsburgh Team Photo Pack)
1909 Joe McCarthy (E254)
1887 Tommy McCarthy (N172)
1960 Willie McCovey (Topps/Jay Publishing)

1899 Joe McGinnity (M101-1)
1948 Bill McGowan (Umpire School P/C)
1894 John McGraw (Alpha Photo Engraving)
1906 Bill McKechnie (Washington Team P/C)
1885 Bid McPhee (Cincinnati Team Cabinet) courtesy of Gary P.
1933 Joe Medwick (Worch Cigars)
1910 Jose Mendez (Punch)
1933 Johnny Mize (Greensboro Team Photo)

1978 Paul Molitor (Topps)
1965 Joe Morgan (Topps/Houston Team Issue Photo)
1977 Eddie Murray (Baltimore Team Photo Pack)
1941 Stan Musial (Rochester Team Premium)
1939 Hal Newhouser (Salutation Exhibits)
1889 Kid Nichols (N172)

1964 Phil Niekro (Topps)
1966 Walter O'Malley (LA Dodgers Record Covers)
1871 Jim O'Rourke (Stratford Osceolas Team Photo) courtesy of Paul C.
1929 Mel Ott (Kashin/4-on-1 Exhibits)
1932 Satchell Paige (Pittsburgh Crawfords P/C)
1964 Jim Palmer (Aberdeen Team Photo Premium)
1921 Herb Pennock (E220)
1963 Tony Perez (San Diego Team Issue)
1961 Gaylord Perry (Tacoma Bank)

1902 Eddie Plank (W600)
1922 Alex Pompez (NY Cubans Team Photo)
1931 Cum Posey (Homestead Grays P/C)
1983 Kirby Puckett (Larry Fritsch - Visalia)
1879 Charles Radbourne (Dubuque Team Cabinet) courtesy of Jay M.
1939 Pee Wee Reese (Louisville Team Photo Premium)

1973 Jim Rice (Venezuelan League Sticker)
1917 Sam Rice (Boston Store/Collins McCarthy/Standard Biscuit/Weil Baking)
1906 Branch Rickey (W601 St. Louis P/C)
1980 Cal Ripken Jr. (Charlotte - Police)
1913 Eppa Rixey (T200 - Philadelphia)
1939 Phil Rizzuto (Kansas City Team Photo Premium)
1948 Robin Roberts (Philadelphia Bulletin)
1955 Brooks Robinson (Baltimore Team Issue)
1953 Frank Robinson (Butte Team Photo)
1946 Jackie Robinson (Parade Sportive)

1887 Wilbert Robinson (Kalamazoo Bats)
1916 Bullet Rogan (25th Infantry Panorama)
1909 Edd Roush (Oakland City Team Photo P/C)
1924 Red Ruffing (Diaz Cigarettes)
1889 Amos Rusie (N172)
1914 Babe Ruth (Baltimore News/Baltimore Orioles Team Photo/Providence Team Photo)
1968 Nolan Ryan (Topps)
1980 Ryne Sandberg (TCMA - Reading)
1961 Ron Santo (Topps/Manny's BB Land)

1911 Louis Santop (Lincoln Giants Team P/C)
1913 Ray Schalk (M101-2)
1971 Mike Schmidt (Reading Team Premium)
1945 Red Schoendienst (M114)
1967 Tom Seaver (Topps/Mets Team Issue P/C)
1887 Frank Selee (Oshkosh Team Cabinet)
1920 Joe Sewell (Cleveland Team Photo P/C)
1923 Al Simmons (Exhibits)

1916 George Sisler (M101-5/BF2 Ferguson Pennants)
1937 Enos Slaughter (Columbus Team Photo Premium)
1935 Hilton Smith (Bismarck Team Photo P/C)
1978 Ozzie Smith (Family Fun Center)
1946 Duke Snider (Fort Worth Team Photo)
1912 Billy Southworth (Portsmouth Team Photo)
1946 Warren Spahn (W602)
1867 Albert Spalding (Rockford CDV) courtesy of Gary P.
1908 Tris Speaker (Little Rock Team P/C)

1963 Willie Stargell (Topps/IDL Drugs)
1920 Turkey Stearnes (California League Photo)
1910 Casey Stengel (T210)
1976 Bruce Sutter (Chicago Tribune)
1926 Mule Suttles (St. Louis Stars Team Photo P/C)
1965 Don Sutton (Albuquerque Team Photo)
1916 Ben Taylor (Indianapolis Team Cabinet)
1923 Bill Terry (M114 - NY Giants Team Photo Premium)

1884 Sam Thompson (Evansville Photo) courtesy of Joe G.
1902 Joe Tinker (W600)
1923 Cristobal Torriente (Tomas Gutierrez/Billiken)
1922 Pie Traynor (E120)
1912 Dazzy Vance (Superior Team P/C) courtesy of Dan B.
1933 Arky Vaughan (Goudey/Worch Cigars)
1946 Bill Veeck (Cleveland Team Photo P/C)
1899 Rube Waddell (M101-1)
1895 Honus Wagner (Warren Team Imperial Cabinet)

1899 Bobby Wallace (M101-1)
1904 Ed Walsh (W600)
1925 Lloyd Waner (Zeenuts)
1923 Paul Waner (Zeenuts)
1879 John Ward (New York Clipper Woodcuts)
1950 Earl Weaver (Winston-Salem Team Issue)
1920 George Weiss (New Haven Team Cabinet)
1879 Mickey Welch (New York Clipper Woodcuts)
1925 Willie Wells (St. Louis Stars P/C)
1900's Zach Wheat (Original Cabinet Card)

1884 Sol White (Bellaire Globe Team Photo) courtesy of Kenny C.
1950 Hoyt Wilhelm (Fosforos)
1910 J.L. Wilkinson (Hopkins Team Photo P/C)
1961 Billy Williams (Topps/Topps Stamps)
1950 Dick Williams (Almendares Team Premium)
1914 Joe Williams (NY Lincoln Giants Team Photo)
1937 Ted Williams (San Diego Team Premium)
1899 Vic Willis (M101-1)
1922 Hack Wilson (Martinsburg Team Photo P/C)
1933 Jud Wilson (Philadelphia Stars P/C)

1973 Dave Winfield (Dean's Photo Service)
1863 George Wright (Photographic Studio CDV)
1859 Harry Wright (Knickerbockers/Excelsiors Teams Photo) courtesy of Barry S.
1943 Early Wynn (M114)
1960 Carl Yastrzemski (Topps/Minneapolis Team Photo Premium)
1959 Tom Yawkey (Fleer - Ted Williams)
1890 Cy Young (Ryder Studio Cabinet/Rogers Studio Cabinet)
1917 Ross Youngs (M114 - NY Giants Team Photo Premium/NY Giants Team P/C) courtesy of Matt
1974 Robin Yount (Big Boy's Team Photo Premium)


I would love to hear from you guys/gals who know of anything that pre-dates what I have listed. Scans would be really fantastic but a simple description of the item would be great also.

Please find below, a listing of the earliest collectibles of the Sportswriters & Broadcasters recognized by the Baseball Hall of Fame as Spink Award Winners & Frick Award Winners. Those individuals who played in the Major/Negro Leagues are identified with an *

1949 Mel Allen (NY Yankees Photo Pack)
1951 Red Barber (Dodgers Broadcasters P/C)
1993 Marty Brennaman (Kahn's)
1953 Jack Brickhouse (Bob Feller's Baseball Broadcasters)
1922 Heywood Broun (Original Photo)
1989 Jack Buck (Pro Set)
1940's Buck Canel (Press Photo)
1949 Harry Caray (Sunday Morning Baseball League Broadside)
1942 John Carmichael (Who's Who in Baseball Photo)
1973 Herb Carneal (Minnesota Twins Yearbook Photo)

1949 Jerry *Coleman (NY Yankees Photo Pack)
1952 Jimmy Dudley (Broadcasters P/C)
1938 Bob Elson (Baseball Dope Book Photo)
2006 Gene Elston (Frick Award Winner Photo)
1988 Hugh Fullerton (Eight Men Out)
1993 Peter Gammons (ESPN Press Photo)
1946 Joe *Garagiola (M114 - St. Louis Team Photo Premium)
1950's Curt Gowdy (Broadcasters P/C)
1970 Milo Hamilton (Atlanta Team Issue Photo)
1953 Ernie Harwell (Bob Feller's Baseball Broadcasters)

1953 Russ Hodges (Bob Feller's Baseball Broadcasters)
2009 Jerome Holtzman (Jewish Baseball Update)
1998 Jaime Jarrin (LA Dodgers Team Issue Photo)
1984 Harry Kalas (Tastykake Phillies)
1952 John Kieran (Press Photo)
1957 Tony *Kubek (Topps/Yankees Team Photo Pack)
1925 Ring Lardner (Biography Photo)
2007 Denny Matthews (KC Royals Team Issue Photo)
1953 Arch McDonald (Bob Feller's Baseball Broadcasters)
2004 Jon Miller (Fleer Announcing Greats)

1879 Tim *Murnane (New York Clipper Woodcut)
1988 Bob Murphy (Rini P/C)
1959 Lindsey Nelson (Phillies Cigars)
1995 Dave Niehaus (Seattle Team Issue)
1941 Buck *O'Neil (KC Monarchs Team Photo Broadside)
1953 Bob Prince (Bob Feller's Baseball Broadcasters)
1951 Felo Ramirez (Press Photo)
1990 Joe Riechler (Little Sun)
1952 Grantland Rice (NFL Poster)
1915 Damon Runyon (Pittsburgh Post - Green Sheet)

1959 By Saam (Phillies Cigars)
1951 Vin Scully (Dodgers Broadcaster's P/C)
1999 Lon Simmons (Keebler)
1985 W. Red Smith (Life Magazine)
1952 J.G. Taylor Spink (Press Photo)
2004 Chuck Thompson (Baltimore Lottery)
1962 Bob *Uecker (Topps)
1957 Bob Wolff (Press Photo)
1990 Dick Young (Little Sun)

Surely, some recently identified additions should be added but this was pretty comprehensive at the time.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Since this thread originally started out as identifying Bob Feller's rookie card(s), I am going to start a new thread to further discuss the topic of Rookie cards, primarily focusing on pre-war.

[ValKehl]

Phil, for Sam Rice, I believe your above list should also include his 1917 D328 Weil Baking card.

[BobC]

Phil,

Great list. By any chance, did you also do a similar version that only included first MLB appearances, and not also include minor league appearances? I'm guessing that would be useful to some collectors as well who specifically focus on just major league items. Still, outstanding list.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

Everyone has their own definitions, but I also consider items like the M101-1 and M101-2 The Sporting News and W601 The Sporting Life issues as being supplements, but are much more "card-like" than a magazine or its cover. These were stand alone items that were obviously made to be collected individually on their own and were part of a set. They were even advertised that way within their publication. The backs of the M101-1s even have detailed biographies which are very much like cards. Heck, even Jefferson Burdick game them their own ACC number within the "M" Periodical Issues heading.

I like magazines and they make great collectibles, but these The Sporting New supplements were made to be collected and are much more card like IMHO. Yes, they are on thinner stock and somewhat oversized, but they are very similar to the some of the premiums put out in the day from the likes of Butterfinger, National Chicle, Goudey, etc.

For comparison, this 1905 W601 The Sporting Life Detroit composite sold for $8,400. The same image is available on the front cover of their weekly newspaper and would only sell for a small fraction of that.

I agree. I was being a little dramatic. In the range of collectibles that could be considered someone’s rookie “card”, I agree that a supplement is closer to a card/rookie piece than a magazine or newspaper picture/piece.

Let me be clear- I think those early sporting life supplements are totally awesome. And I think a reasonable argument could be made that, at least with Wagner, it could be a rookie “card”. I just don’t think it is. I don’t think they are cards. I don’t think the composites are either. They are more like a collectible picture or poster or something. I think one could argue that cabinets and post cards are not “cards” also, although I think they are. But that’s just my opinion, and you know opinions are like assholes…

Collect what you like, that’s really all that matters.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I agree. I was being a little dramatic. In the range of collectibles that could be considered someone’s rookie “card”, I agree that a supplement is closer to a card/rookie piece than a magazine or newspaper picture/piece.

Let me be clear- I think those early sporting life supplements are totally awesome. And I think a reasonable argument could be made that, at least with Wagner, it could be a rookie “card”. I just don’t think it is. I don’t think they are cards. I don’t think the composites are either. They are more like a collectible picture or poster or something. I think one could argue that cabinets and post cards are not “cards” also, although I think they are. But that’s just my opinion, and you know opinions are like assholes…

Collect what you like, that’s really all that matters.

I totally agree. Collect what you like. I am torn on whether supplements are "cards" are not, but I have always felt that cabinets, postcards and Exhbits are cards. I totally respect why others would disagree.

The 1899 Wagner is an interesting item to examine. Personally, I like the The Sporting News variety that has the August 19, 1899 date on the front of it and was issued as an actual supplement with the newspaper on that day. I am not as familiar with the National Copper Plate issue, but judging by the one that has been on ebay which has two binding holes on the left edge, and no advertising, I assume that it was issued in some sort of portfolio. It is still very cool, but not as "card-like" to me since it was not issued on its own.

We collectors are definitely quirky which makes the hobby so unique.

[h2oya311]

Since there will NEVER be consensus on what is considered a “rookie” or a “card”, I took out the guess work and think it can be any number of items (although the 1933 Goudey Ruth doesn’t make the cut) similar to the approach taken on the old cardboard website. But even they focused almost exclusively on items catalogued in the Lemke Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards book.

I’ve been working on a website (about 30% complete) that identifies all cards and photos (excluding only yearbooks and certain other magazine photos) to show the earliest collectible(s) for each hall of fame baseball player. The lists are mostly complete, but I haven’t finished uploading all the images. If you only want to see major league “rookie” cards, you can find them. If you just want earliest (including minor leagues), you can find them too. If you don’t care about size (“size matters not” - Yoda), there’s plenty of big and small items to peruse. If you want to know the earliest image with team items (like team postcards) or just composites or you’re okay with press photos and original photos or “one-of-a-kind” cabinets or magazine premiums, supplements, and woodcuts, you’ll find ‘em here. To each his own.

Take a look and let me know if you have any recommended additions.

HOF Earliest website:
https://imageevent.com/derekgranger/hofearliest

Enjoy the sneak peak. You won’t be disappointed. Once complete, I’ll add a reference page on this site. Obviously, a lot of credit has to go to Phil Garry on his early work on this topic. I’ve just added and added to the list after years of research and lots of AH catalog browsing. I hope to finish the site by the end of this year, but it’s a labor of love, so please be patient.

[Baseball Rarities]

Derek - that is an awesome list. I only follow a few players and issues that your webpage covers, but your information really accurate in those instances. The work that you and Phil Garry have done with these "first collectible" and "rookie" lists is really appreciated.

I would suggest that you create a new thread where people could comment and add to it.

[Exhibitman]

Do non-USA cards belong on a rookie card list for MLB players? I totally get the issue with NL players who, but how is a card not issued in the USA the RC of an MLB player when he has USA issued cards, e.g., Al Lopez's 1930 Baguer instead of his 1927 die-cut or 1951 Bowman? If a foreign issue counts, why not count team issues that were at least issued somewhere in the USA? And if one PC counts, don't all PCs count?



this cut from the back of a box is a card?



But these cuts from a newspaper are not (1949 Philadelphia Bulletin cards)?



They were intended to be cut out and saved as baseball cards.

I don't mean to be nit-picky, but it just seems that drawing the line based on materials or size alone is arbitrary.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Good pick-up, Val. I missed the Weil Baking Sam Rice. Card has now been added to the list.