Broders, Dan Even and the Helmar Rabbit Hole

[tpeichel]

Hi,
I joined the site recently so I thought I would introduce myself. I had heard of Net54 from time to time, but my focus has always been oddball cards for superstars of the 80s, so I never pulled the trigger to register here.

I started selling oddball cards in the early 1990s, magazine inserts, pins, buttons, magnets, variations, test issues, food issues and unlicensed cards. By far the most frequently sold were the unlicensed issues, so in the early 2000s I started a quest to try and catalogue all of the unlicensed issues. At first in Access and then about ten years ago a website (supercollector catalog).

From time to time I had heard of a Broder book with checklists for all of the sets, but I never found one, until a few days ago. It is in the mail as I write. The author was Dan Even, which eventually led me here, where I unfortunately learned of his recent passing. I would have loved to pick his brain about the story around the whole "Broder" saga.

Love them or hate them, "Broders" have made an impact on the industry. It seems like the same arguments that were bandied about during the 1990s over unlicensed issues have resurfaced with the advent of "custom" cards like the Helmars. I spent quite a while reading through several threads discussing the new Helmars on these boards. Very interesting. I did a search on eBay for them, and as a novice, I really had no idea what was new and what was old. My two cents is they should be dated to easily identify what they are, especially because they are aged to make them look vintage. Beautiful cards though, I see why collectors like them.

One set I really wanted to discuss with Dan was a sample Broder set from 1989. It took elements from the earlier Action Superstars sets and the later 1991 Play Ball sets. They arrived in a big lot of cards I purchase and were the only "Broder" with a MLB logo on the front. My theory is this was a test run of some sort in preparation for creating the 1991 Play Ball set. I have only seen a few over the years. There are four Griffeys, three Mattinglys and two Kevin Mitchells.

http://www.supercollectorcatalog.com...logo-test.html

I have continued searching but have never been able to find any other players and they have not popped up on eBay for years. If you know of any others, please let me know!

Interestingly, prices for Broders have been going up over the years as supply has dried up. I used to pick up sets for $1-2, no more. $5, $10 or $20 are more common prices now, while the 1987 Broder Play Ball Japan is $40-$50! (I took a look at it recently and it has five out of the eight players in the Japanese league 500 HR club: Oh, Kiyohara, Ochiai, Kinugasa, Kadota. Not sure if that has anything to do with the price jump though. In all likelihood it is the interest in Sadaharu Oh as someone on eBay is trying to get $300 for a graded version.) Anyways, I believe that was the only Japanese set Rob Broder created.

I do have a good vintage story from the best trade I ever made with my piano teacher in 1983, but that is for another thread.

Tim Peichel

[Leon]

an interesting thread with some longtime hobbyists

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=222019

[tpeichel]

Originally Posted by Leon

an interesting thread with some longtime hobbyists

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=222019

Thanks for the link, Leon. Another rabbit hole.

1969...Ha, I was one only a year old. I bet that group of collector could never imagine the vast industry that this hobby has become. I would have tp give them an A++ for their promotion!

Funny that at the first convention they were discussing the issues around unlicensed "collector issues".

[Exhibitman]

Unlicensed material is now vintage, I guess, since there is a lot of it pre-1980. Of course, many of the prewar issues would be politely characterized as unlicensed.



I'm gonna guess ESCO didn't pay Ruth or the Yankees or even the photographer.

I've been collecting that sort of stuff since I was a kid when I got my first TCMA cards, but it didn't really garner much respect until relatively recently.



Now, there is a market and demand for older collector issues.

As for the Helmar and other ACEO [Art Cards Editions and Originals] issues, they are not quite the same as the classic unlicensed cards we older farts all think of from our childhoods. They exploit a fine arts loophole in copyright and trademark law, which probably accounts for ACEO manufacturers getting away with them.



I actually sold quite a few of them at the August show I worked in Burbank. Collectors seem to appreciate nice looking cards regardless of whether they are 'Broders'; Topps even figured that out. It looks like most of the Topps fantasy cards like Topps Project 2020 are ACEOs with licenses.

[Lucas00]

I am a fan of Helmar. They use very high quality printing techniques and have very good attention to detail.

See my Red with a beautiful Rolled Lace Glove peaking up. Very high quality.

I also like how this particular set is numbered /20. Kind of like a fine art series.
The only time a card being numbered I'll ever care about.

[tpeichel]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Unlicensed material is now vintage, I guess, since there is a lot of it pre-1980. Of course, many of the prewar issues would be politely characterized as unlicensed.



I'm gonna guess ESCO didn't pay Ruth or the Yankees or even the photographer.

I've been collecting that sort of stuff since I was a kid when I got my first TCMA cards, but it didn't really garner much respect until relatively recently.



Now, there is a market and demand for older collector issues.

As for the Helmar and other ACEO [Art Cards Editions and Originals] issues, they are not quite the same as the classic unlicensed cards we older farts all think of from our childhoods. They exploit a fine arts loophole in copyright and trademark law, which probably accounts for ACEO manufacturers getting away with them.



I actually sold quite a few of them at the August show I worked in Burbank. Collectors seem to appreciate nice looking cards regardless of whether they are 'Broders'; Topps even figured that out. It looks like most of the Topps fantasy cards like Topps Project 2020 are ACEOs with licenses.

Cool stuff. As long as collectors are not being deceived, I do not have a problem with people adding these to their collections.

[tpeichel]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

I am a fan of Helmar. They use very high quality printing techniques and have very good attention to detail.

See my Red with a beautiful Rolled Lace Glove peaking up. Very high quality.

I also like how this particular set is numbered /20. Kind of like a fine art series.
The only time a card being numbered I'll ever care about.

Beautiful card. It would not be difficult to discretely add a year to the back of the card to identify it as a modern creation, though when I think about it, the serial numbering kind of gives it away.

[steve B]

Had a quick look at the website, I have a feeling I'll be spending a lot of time on it....

I've been interested in these unlicensed cards for a while now, and pick them up when I come across them. Preferably in full sets, but if I'm going through a cheap cards box and they're in there I usually get them.

I always thought it was funny people claimed they were worthless because the people making them could always reprint them. So far I haven't heard of that happening with an unlicensed set, but it has happened with Upper Deck, and if you count Star as a major company them too. (UD twice, once faking their own cards but not a sports set)

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

I am a fan of Helmar. They use very high quality printing techniques and have very good attention to detail.

See my Red with a beautiful Rolled Lace Glove peaking up. Very high quality.

I also like how this particular set is numbered /20. Kind of like a fine art series.
The only time a card being numbered I'll ever care about.

Jeez, how hard is it to spell Schoendienst?! He's only been a notable figure for 80 years.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by tpeichel

Love them or hate them, "Broders" have made an impact on the industry. It seems like the same arguments that were bandied about during the 1990s over unlicensed issues have resurfaced with the advent of "custom" cards like the Helmars. I spent quite a while reading through several threads discussing the new Helmars on these boards. Very interesting. I did a search on eBay for them, and as a novice, I really had no idea what was new and what was old. My two cents is they should be dated to easily identify what they are, especially because they are aged to make them look vintage. Beautiful cards though, I see why collectors like them.

Helmar's original business model was arguably created on a false pretense, false product, and a business model that was apt to deceive on the secondary market using a known name to collectors that passed a light google testing by a buyer. There simply is not another well known ACEO creator I know of using a company brand that has a period released catalogued issue from the era they were representing at creation.

It has improved over time as to the clarity somewhat that these are modern replicas, but they need dating as do all these products to eliminate the shadow they cast in my personal opinion. The artificial distressing without these being original art pieces is questionable. The example shown with hand numbering would be acceptable to my art collector tendencies as a print of what some may consider an art piece. I like the clarity that this is not a faked issue that the numbering provides.

People can certainly collect what they want and makes them happy, I only worry about the new collector or eBay buyer looking for a gift for a collector. I have seen these falsely represented on the secondary market many times.

I have since become less militant in my stance than shown in this chain when these first popped up at outlandish sales prices. However, the facts disclosed are true to my knowledge and I am pleased they have seemed to have moved on from the representation as a brewery. For that I give them credit.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=142510

As for your website, i do enjoy the information provided and think you have a good thing going. Keep it up!

I do not personally consider Broder an issue that should not be catalogued. I do not visit a show to this day that does not have Broder examples. For the 80's LCS visitors on the board, I would be very surprised if they do not remember these being on display for sale in their local shop, usually at a dollar each. These had a wide distribution. The same would go for ESCO and they certainly were not small batch.

I think those issues are apples to oranges compared to the eBay "art card" or ACEO cards. Those should never be catalogued as random limited fantasy pieces, nor would it be possible.

- Justin

(Full name above, yet tweaked for google search privacy, for those that do not understand why that is done, )

[h2oya311]

Tim - welcome to the board! You have a wealth of knowledge so will be a great fit for the Net54 community.

I remember getting an email from Janice Even about Dan’s passing. He used to hold old-school auctions by email. He was honest though as I recall placing a $500+ bid on a card I wanted, only paid about $70 for it and heard that another person emailed him “after the final bell” but he wouldn’t accept that bid. Saved me quite a few bucks.

Anyway, I remember your name coming up a lot when it was searching for oddball Rickey Henderson cards back in the day. I don’t miss that rat-race. Modern player collectors are always in for a world of pain. The Broder’s are prime examples as most are uncatalogued.

Dan Even was the go-to source for JD McCarthy postcards. I have a printout of one of his spreadsheets (several hundred pages) of each player and pose catalogued. I know of a few that didn’t make his checklist, but he made a pretty decent dent in it. Not sure if anyone has picked up that pursuit with his passing.

Anyway, welcome aboard!!

[tpeichel]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Helmar's original business model was arguably created on a false pretense, false product, and a business model that was apt to deceive on the secondary market using a known name to collectors that passed a light google testing by a buyer. There simply is not another well known ACEO creator I know of using a company brand that has a period released catalogued issue from the era they were representing at creation.

It has improved over time as to the clarity somewhat that these are modern replicas, but they need dating as do all these products to eliminate the shadow they cast in my personal opinion. The artificial distressing without these being original art pieces is questionable. The example shown with hand numbering would be acceptable to my art collector tendencies as a print of what some may consider an art piece. I like the clarity that this is not a faked issue that the numbering provides.

People can certainly collect what they want and makes them happy, I only worry about the new collector or eBay buyer looking for a gift for a collector. I have seen these falsely represented on the secondary market many times.

I have since become less militant in my stance than shown in this chain when these first popped up at outlandish sales prices. However, the facts disclosed are true to my knowledge and I am pleased they have seemed to have moved on from the representation as a brewery. For that I give them credit.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=142510

As for your website, i do enjoy the information provided and think you have a good thing going. Keep it up!

I do not personally consider Broder an issue that should not be catalogued. I do not visit a show to this day that does not have Broder examples. For the 80's LCS visitors on the board, I would be very surprised if they do not remember these being on display for sale in their local shop, usually at a dollar each. These had a wide distribution. The same would go for ESCO and they certainly were not small batch.

I think those issues are apples to oranges compared to the eBay "art card" or ACEO cards. Those should never be catalogued as random limited fantasy pieces, nor would it be possible.

- Justin

(Full name above, yet tweaked for google search privacy, for those that do not understand why that is done, )

A collector submitted a question on my site today:

Submitted Information:

Name
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Email
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Comment
What do you know about these cards?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/18578109372...&segname=11050



Of course, I told him it is fake. Broders did not have colored versions.

UPDATE: The listing is closed, looks like it went for $10 instead of the $150 the seller was asking. I guess they got called out on the fake.

[tpeichel]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Tim - welcome to the board! You have a wealth of knowledge so will be a great fit for the Net54 community.

I remember getting an email from Janice Even about Dan’s passing. He used to hold old-school auctions by email. He was honest though as I recall placing a $500+ bid on a card I wanted, only paid about $70 for it and heard that another person emailed him “after the final bell” but he wouldn’t accept that bid. Saved me quite a few bucks.

Anyway, I remember your name coming up a lot when it was searching for oddball Rickey Henderson cards back in the day. I don’t miss that rat-race. Modern player collectors are always in for a world of pain. The Broder’s are prime examples as most are uncatalogued.

Dan Even was the go-to source for JD McCarthy postcards. I have a printout of one of his spreadsheets (several hundred pages) of each player and pose catalogued. I know of a few that didn’t make his checklist, but he made a pretty decent dent in it. Not sure if anyone has picked up that pursuit with his passing.

Anyway, welcome aboard!!

Thanks, Derek. I am enjoying the boards, so much information outside of my area expertise that I knew only at a very superficial level.

[tpeichel]

The Broder Checklist by Dan Evens arrived and although Dan is gone, he still can weigh in on the issue. Here is the introduction to his book.

[tpeichel]

Originally Posted by tpeichel

The Broder Checklist by Dan Evens arrived and although Dan is gone, he still can weigh in on the issue. Here is the introduction to his book.

I had to reduce the size of the image to get it to load but now it is unreadable. Is there a way to get around the 190 Kb limit? It seems like other people post larger images.

[tpeichel]

I’ll try posting from my phone, it seems to convert the size down automatically.