Greg Morris - Trimmed Card? Proper Response?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

The proposed idea, that there is nothing a seller should do beyond refunding a buyer if they catch the alteration and complain while very specifically rejecting the notion the seller should disclose the alteration in the listing, is 100% the same as Jaimet's claimed policy that was resoundingly mocked.

Obviously other aspects of the cases are completely different and have never been claimed to be the same (GM lists altered cards without disclosure but there is no reason to think they alter them themselves or anything), but this proposed policy to defend Morris declining to ID altered cards after being informed is exactly the same, as claimed.

So without examining the card in hand, based solely on a scan...not even a before or after photo comparison, you can state the card offered by the company is altered? Not even possibly cut small by the factory?

Again, there is nothing here that at all that rises to the indiscretions that Will has engaged in with this hobby.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

So without examining the card in hand, based solely on a scan...not even a before or after photo comparison, you can state the card offered by the company is altered? Not even possibly cut small by the factory?

Again, there is nothing here that at all that rises to the indiscretions that Will has engaged in with this hobby.

Yes. Tip Tops don’t come this hugely short naturally. Anything is of course possible, maybe its unique! I would think most people would use a reasonable standard, in which a card this hugely short is very very unlikely to be unaltered. It is certainly more reasonable to act as if this card is trimmed than it is to act as if it is not.

Let’s say it is unaltered, just for giggles. As far as I am aware Morris never admits any card he sells is altered at all - he grades it and puts “minimum size” next to his grade range. Where is that?

Again, not a single person has claimed or implied Morris and Jaimet have risen to the same level of indiscretion. What was actually said, is that this policy being argued by a previous poster who has left the conversation now is 100% exactly the same as the Jaimet standard of disclosure we were all having a good laugh over. That a seller need not disclose alteration if they refund a buyer who catches it and complains. People seem to find the exact same standard reasonable and unreasonable based on who they are used to benefit.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Yes, I remember that. That was a hoot.

You were cussing out ebay, all the TPGs and GM besides, and then as it turned out, funds had been refunded and were sitting in your bank account.

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Al, too true, and I felt like such a jerk after all my bellowing.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

I don't disagree, but as I said in an earlier post, I don't know anything about these cards, so I don't know if size / photo cropping differences are normal.

What I do know is that offering a refund to an unhappy buyer seems to me like a good deal for the buyer. If they think there is a chance that the card is not trimmed, they can get it in hand, decide for themselves, and then return if they need to.

If they think there is no chance that the card isn't trimmed, then they shouldn't buy it from him to begin with, but if they do, they can then return it if they decide that they were right all along.

+1. Although I do not collect these, they do seem to have some slight variance in size and can be found a little miscut. I would be more concerned about the missing left side than I would be about the top-bottom, but then again, trimming is trimming if that in fact occurred.

Seems to me that between the Ebay review and the Seller's agreement to refund if buyer is unhappy (as in no need to prove it was trimmed) there is adequate protection. Combined with my confidence in this seller generally, I would not have a problem bidding, nor would I consider his opinion that the card is untrimmed to be some sort of attempt to cheat me.

EDITED TO ADD: Maybe Ted Z. can chime in, since he collects these from back when they were issued.

[Rascal1010]

So after all this discussion on this card, the basic gripe is that someone that works for him marked the card as "LOW GRADE" instead of "FILLER". If you read through their Ebay disclosure on how they grade cards, that seems to be the only issue with this card. Had it been marked "FILLER" it is covered under their description. I don't collect this issue, so I have no idea if it is trimmed, factory mis-cut or just fine, I also don't have the card in hand so I'm not going to make any determination if someone trimmed it.

When I was set building I purchased a lot of cards from Greg Morris Cards, and yes, I got some trimmed one's and there were no questions asked when I returned them. I also purchased a lot of cards on the BST area of this board in large lots and I ran into a trimmed card every now and then, it's part of the hobby and has been for over 40 years. Trimmed cards aren't going away, one just needs to accept the fact that you're going to own some at some point, especially if you want to collect high grade vintage. The nice thing is a lot of these trimmed cards are sold "raw" today because TPG's have gotten better at catching some of them over the years.

As for GM Cards to be paying people to constantly be making changes to listings at the whims of everyone that wants to make a comment about their cards, I would ignore it too as a business owner. They are running a business that is good at getting large volumes of raw cards listed on a weekly basis and available to collectors. I would prefer that his employees are listing cards not making corrections to listing titles instead, and I'm sure in order to continue their business their employees need to be listing cards. If you think the card is trimmed, simply don't buy it and move on to the next one. I would much rather take my chances with a seller like GM Cards who will return the trimmed card than the hoard of sellers on Ebay that are selling trimmed cards in TPG holders and tell you to "Pound Sand" when you try to return it because it was graded by PSA or SGC.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Rascal1010

So after all this discussion on this card, the basic gripe is that someone that works for him marked the card as "LOW GRADE" instead of "FILLER". If you read through their Ebay disclosure on how they grade cards, that seems to be the only issue with this card. Had it been marked "FILLER" it is covered under their description. I don't collect this issue, so I have no idea if it is trimmed, factory mis-cut or just fine, I also don't have the card in hand so I'm not going to make any determination if someone trimmed it.

When I was set building I purchased a lot of cards from Greg Morris Cards, and yes, I got some trimmed one's and there were no questions asked when I returned them. I also purchased a lot of cards on the BST area of this board in large lots and I ran into a trimmed card every now and then, it's part of the hobby and has been for over 40 years. Trimmed cards aren't going away, one just needs to accept the fact that you're going to own some at some point, especially if you want to collect high grade vintage. The nice thing is a lot of these trimmed cards are sold "raw" today because TPG's have gotten better at catching some of them over the years.

As for GM Cards to be paying people to constantly be making changes to listings at the whims of everyone that wants to make a comment about their cards, I would ignore it too as a business owner. They are running a business that is good at getting large volumes of raw cards listed on a weekly basis and available to collectors. I would prefer that his employees are listing cards not making corrections to listing titles instead, and I'm sure in order to continue their business their employees need to be listing cards. If you think the card is trimmed, simply don't buy it and move on to the next one. I would much rather take my chances with a seller like GM Cards who will return the trimmed card than the hoard of sellers on Ebay that are selling trimmed cards in TPG holders and tell you to "Pound Sand" when you try to return it because it was graded by PSA or SGC.

I buy a lot of cards from GM, and the reason is that I trust his graders. I don't want to have to look at every card before I bid on it, to see if it is trimmed. And I don't want to have to measure every card I win.

So threads like this bother me. I agree with many of the posters that GM's standards have dipped recently. I hope these problems are temporary and plans are in process to fix the issues.

I agree with G1911 and others that the Will Jaimet business model is not a good solution, and not one that GM should be satisfied with.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Yes. Tip Tops don’t come this hugely short naturally. Anything is of course possible, maybe its unique! I would think most people would use a reasonable standard, in which a card this hugely short is very very unlikely to be unaltered. It is certainly more reasonable to act as if this card is trimmed than it is to act as if it is not.

Let’s say it is unaltered, just for giggles. As far as I am aware Morris never admits any card he sells is altered at all - he grades it and puts “minimum size” next to his grade range. Where is that?

Again, not a single person has claimed or implied Morris and Jaimet have risen to the same level of indiscretion. What was actually said, is that this policy being argued by a previous poster who has left the conversation now is 100% exactly the same as the Jaimet standard of disclosure we were all having a good laugh over. That a seller need not disclose alteration if they refund a buyer who catches it and complains. People seem to find the exact same standard reasonable and unreasonable based on who they are used to benefit.

LOL, Welcome to the reality of collecting pictures of young athletic men in uniforms.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

I agree with G1911 and others that the Will Jaimet business model is not a good solution, and not one that GM should be satisfied with.

Caveat Emptor is the motto we stand behind...

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

Yes. Tip Tops donÂ’t come this hugely short naturally. Anything is of course possible, maybe its unique! I would think most people would use a reasonable standard, in which a card this hugely short is very very unlikely to be unaltered. It is certainly more reasonable to act as if this card is trimmed than it is to act as if it is not.

Let’s say it is unaltered, just for giggles. As far as I am aware Morris never admits any card he sells is altered at all - he grades it and puts “minimum size” next to his grade range. Where is that?

Again, not a single person has claimed or implied Morris and Jaimet have risen to the same level of indiscretion. What was actually said, is that this policy being argued by a previous poster who has left the conversation now is 100% exactly the same as the Jaimet standard of disclosure we were all having a good laugh over. That a seller need not disclose alteration if they refund a buyer who catches it and complains. People seem to find the exact same standard reasonable and unreasonable based on who they are used to benefit.

In my first post I stated I do not know this particular issue certainly not well enough to know what is typical or not for the issue. What I do know is that I have seen lots of vintage issues have cards which are small, as well as large, which have cuts that are 100% consistent with properly sized cards from the same issue. Size to me is meaningless unless someone shows a scan of the card before and a card after where something changed or unless the cut is consistent with what a trim job looks like.

I am not Greg Morris Cards' lawyer but he does apparently list cards as altered (in the title) as well as disclosing other material info about a card. To know this one simply has to look at any of his listings and see the FAQ where he details these disclosures. I cannot speak to this particular card as to why it was not stated it is small or trimmed, assuming that it is. I suspect the person answering questions on eBay is not the same person who has the authority to amend listings. Maybe they took it upon themselves to not raise the issue with someone who might have amended the listing.

I guess I am not as black and white as you. In this case, right or wrong, if I am not comfortable with this card I am not bidding regardless of the return privilege or what I have been told. Again, call me stupid, stubborn or but I really do not see the Jaimet comparison as applicable given the circumstances in their history in the hobby which exist for these two sellers. Jaimet is a sole proprietor with a horrible reputation and is entirely untrustworthy. GMC is a company who has a terrific reputation who has always stood behind what they sell. That you see their responses are the same or similar is taking this out of context at least how I judge situations where I might not agree with how something was handled.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

In my first post I stated I do not know this particular issue certainly not well enough to know what is typical or not for the issue. What I do know is that I have seen lots of vintage issues have cards which are small, as well as large, which have cuts that are 100% consistent with properly sized cards from the same issue. Size to me is meaningless unless someone shows a scan of the card before and a card after where something changed or unless the cut is consistent with what a trim job looks like.

I am not Greg Morris Cards' lawyer but he does apparently list cards as altered (in the title) as well as disclosing other material info about a card. To know this one simply has to look at any of his listings and see the FAQ where he details these disclosures. I cannot speak to this particular card as to why it was not stated it is small or trimmed, assuming that it is. I suspect the person answering questions on eBay is not the same person who has the authority to amend listings. Maybe they took it upon themselves to not raise the issue with someone who might have amended the listing.

I guess I am not as black and white as you. In this case, right or wrong, if I am not comfortable with this card I am not bidding regardless of the return privilege or what I have been told. Again, call me stupid, stubborn or but I really do not see the Jaimet comparison as applicable given the circumstances in their history in the hobby which exist for these two sellers. Jaimet is a sole proprietor with a horrible reputation and is entirely untrustworthy. GMC is a company who has a terrific reputation who has always stood behind what they sell. That you see their responses are the same or similar is taking this out of context at least how I judge situations where I might not agree with how something was handled.

Again, the claim to fact actually made was true. The previous posters proposal is the exact same as the Jaimet standard that was mocked. 100% the same. My opinion of that is that this standard is poor and unethical.

GMC’s terrific reputation, your bidding practices, anybody’s stupidity or stubbornness, your opinion that a card cannot be called trimmed without before and after photos (I have never seen this as a standard before - I guess I don’t need to disclose a trimmed card since I don’t have B&A’s of trimmed cards I own), are very different points and topics from the claim actually made. You are arguing statements the transcript shows were not ever made.

[darwinbulldog]

Looks like they ended the auction.

[Bcwcardz]

Ended because of this thread most likely


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[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Al, too true, and I felt like such a jerk after all my bellowing.

It's happened to us all, some more than once.

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[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Looks like they ended the auction.

That makes sense. The card would have failed the authentication process, so this saves time and effort of the potential buyer, ebay, CSG and GM themselves.

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[STL1944]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Before and after, best I could do quickly...

I sent a follow-up email with a link to JollyElm's gift above (great job by the way) and an hour later GM took down the listing.

[Exhibitman]

I am very interested in a 47 Tip Top Spahn so I was watching the auction closely. When I went to set my snipe, I just wasn't comfortable with the card. Looked far too narrow. I trust my first impression when it comes to the overall look of a card and this one just does not look right. There is also a real problem with reprints; apparently, some very good ones have been made. They are easily caught in hand if you have experience with the set, not so much online. The good reprints I've seen are narrower, probably to conceal the lines that would be on the edges from the reshoot of the original.

I think a card like this has to be in a slab if you are going to sell it online. I cannot do my due diligence as a buyer if I cannot examine the card from all angles in-person, check the stock, etc. That's where the TPGs come in handy. I know they miss stuff, but they also catch a lot of stuff. If the card makes it into a slab the odds of my getting a reprint or an altered card are much lower.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

Again, the claim to fact actually made was true. The previous posters proposal is the exact same as the Jaimet standard that was mocked. 100% the same. My opinion of that is that this standard is poor and unethical.

GMC’s terrific reputation, your bidding practices, anybody’s stupidity or stubbornness, your opinion that a card cannot be called trimmed without before and after photos (I have never seen this as a standard before - I guess I don’t need to disclose a trimmed card since I don’t have B&A’s of trimmed cards I own), are very different points and topics from the claim actually made. You are arguing statements the transcript shows were not ever made.

Not really but you love to argue...I mean debate...so I concede.

[G1911]

The surely properly listed and disclosed Clemente “auto” has also been pulled as well, it appears.

[JollyElm]

Wait, every questionable card 'outed' here on net54 is suddenly being taken down?? Gentlemen, I do declare that GM has a mole in our ranks!!!!!!!!!!!