PWCC vault...explain

[GregMitch34]

As I've noted earlier, I am back after putting a hold on collecting for 4 or 5 years. I've been bidding at various major auctions, scanning ebay and etc. notiicing new trends and practices (e.g. I was first to post here about the new ebay "requiriing authentication" policy). I know PWCC has been a source of criticism and controversy here for many years, but let me ask this: One of several changes there since I exited is their "vault." Just tell me if I have this right:

a) if you win a card you pay the usual 20% premium but you leave it with them and avoid tax and shipping

b) you can then require them to sell it at an upcoming auction

c) you don't pay an additional fee when it's sold but PWCC collects another 20% from buyer.

Is this right? Any other details? Thanks.

[Johnny630]

One word

AVOID

[GregMitch34]

a "Why" would be helpful

[G1911]

Because a tax avoidance scheme run by a fraud ring doesn’t exactly seem like a safe place to leave ones possessions with.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

a "Why" would be helpful

We discussed them ad nauseam for the past 3 years on this platform along with numerous others including blowout.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

As I've noted earlier, I am back after putting a hold on collecting for 4 or 5 years. I've been bidding at various major auctions, scanning ebay and etc. notiicing new trends and practices (e.g. I was first to post here about the new ebay "requiriing authentication" policy). I know PWCC has been a source of criticism and controversy here for many years, but let me ask this: One of several changes there since I exited is their "vault." Just tell me if I have this right:

a) if you win a card you pay the usual 20% premium but you leave it with them and avoid tax and shipping

b) you can then require them to sell it at an upcoming auction

c) you don't pay an additional fee when it's sold but PWCC collects another 20% from buyer.

Is this right? Any other details? Thanks.

First off, I would go with what Johnny said in post #2. And for reasons given by others in this thread and on this forum.

Now having said that, you're pretty much right on with your understanding. The "vault" is actually a fairly ingenious business idea that was initially based on the change in sales tax law back in 2018 from a Supreme Court case, South Dakota vs. Wayfair., and was really pushed when Ebay enacted a mandatory collection of sales tax on all sales on their platform as a result of that case. The idea is that by having your winning items sent directly to your PWCC "vault" (which just happens to be located in Oregon, one of the five US states that does not have a sales tax), their Oregon address is used to determine if there is any sales tax owed. And that doesn't just work for things won from PWCC. You can go to any AH or other sites and use the "vault" address as your shipping destination, and that is the address that is generally used for determining sales tax liability.

Using a "vault" service also replaces the need for getting a safe deposit box or safe for home/office storage as well. An online file is supposedly created so the owner can go and view images of cards they have in the "vault" whenever they want. And my further understanding is that PWCC will also allow people using their "vault" to borrow money against the value of cards they have stored there. Which I think is maybe an even bigger factor than the sales tax savings in many cases. In other words, someone looking to cash in on surging prices of cards they own can send them to PWCC to put into their "vault" and consign them to PWCC to sell for them at the same time. The loan can get them their money now, instead of having to wait until their cards are auctioned/sold, and the buyer pays for them. Think of it as operating kind of like one of those payday loan places you see everywhere.

The idea is to entice people to put cards into their "vault", and then let human greed and laziness take over. Since PWCC sells cards, once you've used their "vault" to save on some sales tax, or get that loan for cash you needed now, it is so easy to just contact them to consign and sell a card for you. You don't have to worry about the time and expense of listing the card for sale yourself, of shipping it to a buyer or other AH or consignor to sell for you, they'll even go ahead and send the card out for grading if you gave it to them raw. This basically creates an ever increasing pool of people and their cards that will use PWCC to sell for them. All of which PWCC gets to charge a commission on when they sell the card.

What PWCC really wants is for a card they sell from their "vault" by one owner, to be purchased by another owner who also uses their "vault". In that situation, PWCC simply makes an entry in their system to show the card in their "vault" is now owned by a different person, and they still get to charge their full commission on the sale. It's like the old prostitute saying, "You got it. you sell it, you still got it......what a business!!!"

The "vault" concept brings in future consignors/sellers, and is akin to PWCC having a perpetual inventory on hand, that they don't have to pay for. And the idea has already been copied by Goldin, which has established their "vault" in Delaware, another state without a sales tax. And even Ebay has bought into the concept and has established their own "vault" program as well. I don't know the full story behind Ebay's vault, but you can easily check into it online. Hope this helps bring you up to date, and gives you some background on, and the genesis of, the "vault" service concept.

[Rhotchkiss]

I don’t think “avoid” is at all correct. For those who want it, the pwcc (or goldin or eBay, or whatever) vault can be a very solid way to safely store cards while legally avoiding state sales tax. Think of the vault as a safety deposit box located in a state that does not charge sales tax (in PWCC’s case, Oregon). Your cards will be sent there and stored, and no sales tax will be charged so long as the card remains there for a certain period of time (not sure exact length but my guess is at least one year). Presumably the card is safe from fire, water, theft, etc. I am sure you will have to pay a monthly or annual fee to store the card in the vault. There may be some fee-break to you if you decide to sell any cards held in the vault with the vault owner/AH; at the least, you don’t have to pay the shipping and deal with the logistics of sending the card(s) to the AH, since they already have it/them in their vault. Personally, I have no issue with vaults, including PWCC’s, and I think that for some, particularly those “investing” in cards, the vault is a great tool.

Although I consider my collection assets, and I fully view them as investments, I have never used a vault. First, I want to hold the cards myself, look at them when I want, and sell/trade then quickly without logistical issue. Second, I don’t believe that any AH with a vault is the proper AH to sell cards in my collection, so I see no personal benefit on that front; my collection is all old and rare and PWCC, Goldin, and EBay tend to attract more shinny and modern stuff. Third, I just don’t feel comfortable trusting anyone else (or at least these options) with the care of my large store of value (my collection); let alone do I want to pay a fee to do so. That is not a knock on them specifically, but I like to control my own destiny and I think I would fell that way about most outfits other than banks and security companies.

[G1911]

The primary, possibly only, reason to use a vault is to avoid owing and paying taxes. Personally I think this is commendable. I strongly support people doing everything they can not to have to pay off the state even more of their property. But avoiding taxes is exactly what these are for. I have no issue with the concept.

Avoiding taxes by keeping one’s property with a fraud ring though… well people who choose to do that will deserve what happens.

[Lorewalker]

Really...if you want to offer a service to store our valuable cards then why are these entities only doing it in states that have no sales tax? Were all the other states fresh out of room for a vault? Total silliness to call it anything other than what it is.

[Johnny630]

The art of the fluff push up certain cards bought in larger quantities by investors buy the under cards push one high then higher then list the 8’s and 9’s relist pump and refresh creating a higher and higher comp while
profiting off the undercard which were already bought up by the investors…I give them credit it worked for a good long while…vaults have other collateral purposes…

[chriskim]

Originally Posted by BobC

It's like the old prostitute saying, "You got it. you sell it, you still got it......what a business!!!"

I have never heard of this before... this makes me laugh and think

[chriskim]

One of the other bad thing is if u pass away all of a sudden and no one in your family knows about "The vault" then obviously "The vault" would never contact your family they have something to be claimed.

[Smarti5051]

Originally Posted by BobC

It's like the old prostitute saying, "You got it. you sell it, you still got it......what a business!!!"

Now you have me wondering if prostitution is where realtors and used car salesman got the expression "previously loved."

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Really...if you want to offer a service to store our valuable cards then why are these entities only doing it in states that have no sales tax? Were all the other states fresh out of room for a vault? Total silliness to call it anything other than what it is.

COMC is a vault service that pre-dates PWCC's. And it is in Washington state, which has sales tax. So they're not all created for that reason.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by chriskim

I have never heard of this before... this makes me laugh and think

The actual old joke involved a certain ethnicity...which I'm not going for.

[GregMitch34]

thanks for the lengthy reports

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Smarti5051

Now you have me wondering if prostitution is where realtors and used car salesman got the expression "previously loved."

Good one, never thought of that angle before. LOL

I've heard the term "well loved" used in regards to some cards by various people/AHs. Maybe an extension of that old saying as well?

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by chriskim

I have never heard of this before... this makes me laugh and think

And, Bob, let's not forget the cash only/no credit and tax free aspects of that particular vocation.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by swarmee

COMC is a vault service that pre-dates PWCC's. And it is in Washington state, which has sales tax. So they're not all created for that reason.

Very true, but with PWCC, they expanded the original concept/idea to take advantage of people's greed to attract more potential customers/clients/consignors with the possible sales tax savings. And then adding in the possibility of loans on cards held in the "vault", they pushed things even farther to attract more people. COMC never went to that level, they did their concept to make it easier for people to consign and sell. PWCC's efforts and additional push to expand their customer/consignor base is also why you'll more likely see cards selling for thousands, and even tens of thousands of dollars, on PWCC, but very unlikely ever sold for such prices on COMC.

I could be wrong, but they seem to be going after somewhat different markets, even though they are both into selling cards online. Your comment is still very true though.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Yoda

And, Bob, let's not forget the cash only/no credit and tax free aspects of that particular vocation.

So true, so true........!

Guess this can add new meaning to the term.......pimping the goods! LOL

[chjh]

Asking for an opinion about PWCC on an N54 forum is pretty much like asking Fox News an opinion about Joe Biden.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by chjh

Asking for an opinion about PWCC on an N54 forum is pretty much like asking Fox News an opinion about Joe Biden.

Yep, the massive evidence of their fraud is propaganda.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by chjh

Asking for an opinion about PWCC on an N54 forum is pretty much like asking Fox News an opinion about Joe Biden.

If so that's pretty ironic given how many defenders Brent used to have here.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by chjh

Asking for an opinion about PWCC on an N54 forum is pretty much like asking Fox News an opinion about Joe Biden.

Agree

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If so that's pretty ironic given how many defenders Brent used to have here.

STILL has

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

STILL has

It was much worse years ago. All the grief I took lol.

[Carter08]

In my less than year here I can’t recall anyone saying they think it’s done acceptable things, much less great things. I’m sure I’ve missed one or two comments but it’s seems to be like Voldemort - just don’t mention it.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It was much worse years ago. All the grief I took lol.

I stayed out of those threads but I recall the refusals to accept the evidence. Facts are often unpopular

[Hxcmilkshake]

I like to receive my cards when I buy em.

Also, threat of loss, fire, theft, stupidity, fraud, etc too much for me.

Send me my Mantle I'll take care of it

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

[chjh]

This industry will benefit from anyone providing innovation, price transparency, trust, and liquidity. The added market participants have squeezed AH commissions and increased the value of scarce, desirable cards.

Both of those are good for the collectors here that have been purchasing and collecting scarce, desirable cards for decades and are sitting on large gains.

Most scarce, desirable assets have been going up a lot in the last 10 years. It makes sense to me that cards would increase as well.

Some people move to Texas or Florida because there is no state income tax. Oregon doesn't collect sales tax on cards. It's rational for Oregon to do that and it's rational for a Vault company to locate there and create jobs.

I think the Vault service is a nice addition.

[chjh]

"In my less than year here I can’t recall anyone saying they think it’s done acceptable things, much less great things. I’m sure I’ve missed one or two comments but it’s seems to be like Voldemort - just don’t mention it."

I agree with this sentiment.

I believe modern investors are finding their way to vintage and T206. Some of that is through PWCC. I think that's great. Their auctions have been showing more T206 cards with strong pricing lately. I'm happy to see any efforts to increase awareness of vintage. Their vault service appeals to many and their website is very user friendly.

The PWCC weekly auction has about 8,000 to 10,000 items a week and their monthly premier auction has over 400 items a month. They are turning out to be the clear winner over eBay after their feud.

Love 'em or hate 'em, whatever you wish, they are innovating and performing a good service. eBay and others have underestimated them.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by chjh

Love 'em or hate 'em, whatever you wish, they are innovating and performing a good service.

98% of the card at 400% the price. I'll continue to hate them. They should be in jail.

[G1911]

It’s never long before a PWCC shill shows up to postulate that the only thing that
matters is that PWCC can be useful in escalating price run ups.

[chjh]

"And then adding in the possibility of loans on cards held in the "vault", they pushed things even farther to attract more people."

Nothing wrong with asset based lending.

Most AH provide loans against cards. Most industries offer asset based lending. PWCC doesn't require the loan. They only offer it as a service if someone needs it.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by G1911

It’s never long before a PWCC shill shows up to postulate that the only thing that
matters is that PWCC can be useful in escalating price run ups.

15 posts, and what do you get?


Another shill poster and deeper in debt.

St peter dont you call me cause I cant go, I owe my soul to the pwcc store

[chjh]

"It’s never long before a PWCC shill shows up to postulate that the only thing that
matters is that PWCC can be useful in escalating price run ups."

This reminds me of all the threads here where some members say the new breed of collectors are rude and lack civility. Oh, wait...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

15 posts, and what do you get?


Another shill poster and deeper in debt.

St peter dont you call me cause I cant go, I owe my soul to the pwcc store

16 not 15 come on man.

[chjh]

"15 posts, and what do you get?


Another shill poster and deeper in debt.

St peter dont you call me cause I cant go, I owe my soul to the pwcc store"

I am pretty sure this post doesn't reflect the common decency of most here.

[chjh]

"16 not 15 come on man."

There is an inverse correlation between the number of posts and common decency when it comes to message boards.

Post 5 day on average for 12 years and this is what you become.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by chjh

"16 not 15 come on man."

There is an inverse correlation between the number of posts and common decency when it comes to message boards.

Post 5 day on average for 12 years and this is what you become.

His parody of the Tennessee Ernie Ford song got the number wrong, OK? It was a joke between friends. But thank you for your gratuitous insult.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

His parody of the Tennessee Ernie Ford song got the number wrong, OK? It was a joke between friends. But thank you for your gratuitous insult.

Up to 19 now!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Up to 19 now!

OHHHHHHHHHHH I see. LOL I missed the "15" completely then. LOL.

[G1911]

I've never understood complaining about people having too many or too few posts.

We should all be able to agree that Tennessee Ernie that was a national treasure.

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Your cards will be sent there and stored, and no sales tax will be charged so long as the card remains there for a certain period of time

I've sent stuff directly to vault, removed them hours later for shipping, and have never been charged sales tax (my state has it). The minimal vault fee has been extremely less than the possible sales tax.

I don't know if this is legal, grey area, or if it may become an issue later. This seems to be their system setup, though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

I've sent stuff directly to vault, removed them hours later for shipping, and have never been charged sales tax (my state has it). The minimal vault fee has been extremely less than the possible sales tax.

I don't know if this is legal, grey area, or if it may become an issue later. This seems to be their system setup, though.

You still owe the tax, unless you choose tax evasion. It's an issue for YOU, not PWCC. Did you really think it was that easy for you to evade taxes? Your state isn't that dumb.

[mrreality68]

I believe the vault concept has some merits and they were mentioned above.

For me however I would not use one for some of the reasons that Ryan mentioned.
In addition I am least comfortable at this point using the vault at PWCC because of their past reputation. Until those concerns are put to rest I would hold off.

They do have amazing inventory and their prices seem to get amazing returns for their sellers but the way they achieve/ or achieved that leaves me on the sidelines.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

I've sent stuff directly to vault, removed them hours later for shipping, and have never been charged sales tax (my state has it). The minimal vault fee has been extremely less than the possible sales tax.

I don't know if this is legal, grey area, or if it may become an issue later. This seems to be their system setup, though.

That is a good, and very interesting, question. It has been discussed on here before, and some have said they thought that there was supposed to be a sales tax charged by the company operating the "vault" they were using if they went to take the cards out and have them sent to themselves. I, and others like Ryan, have stated that it is probably not going to happen as the sales tax laws, which vary from state to state, are not really clear on that topic. Think about it, no state is going to come in when a family moves into it from another state, and start going through all their belongings and furniture, etc., they brought with them to see if they can get some sales tax out of them.

Yet some states have unwritten agreements with neighboring states where they kind of look out for each other and share information about certain businesses where people are crossing over state lines to buy something in the next state to hopefully sidetrack their own state's sales tax laws. So the idea of states not really allowing something like what is being done with "vault" users to get around paying sales taxes is correct, it just isn't something any states have deemed worthy to look into and go after......yet!

But the amount of time one leaves something in a "vault", and the reason for then taking something out to bring back to one's true home, plays a role in whether or not a particular state would be concerned about the sales tax they didn't get.

Quite honestly, what you are doing by having the items you get sent to the vault, and then almost immediately have them forwarded to you in your resident state, would in my opinion certainly be viewed as an illegal attempt to get around the sales tax laws of your resident state. The states just don't have the time and resources to go after these types of schemes. And factor in the Covid issues the past few years and everything else going on, and it makes sense why they haven't bothered, yet! And as you can tell from the reputations some "vault" operators have garnered, just listen to what others are posting, it is no surprise that they may be pushing the illegal concept to people as a way to get more customers/consignors.

It is a grey area as I'm aware of no state that has specifically written into their sales tax laws anything about how long you would have to leave something like cards in a "vault" before taking them out and going home with them, and not potentially be subject to sales tax on them in your resident state.

As a point of reference though, California actually does have a very specific rule in their sales tax laws regarding licensed vehicles. If you purchase a vehicle in any state other than California, where no California sales tax was initially collected on it, and then move that vehicle to California within one year of the date you purchased it, California can come after you for the difference in sales tax that you may have paid to any other state when you bought the vehicle, and what you would have owed to California had you originally bought the vehicle in California. But wait one year and one day, and then move the vehicle to California, and there is no potential California sales tax liability, whatsoever. Again, this is only California, and very specific to just licensed vehicles, but clearly demonstrates how a state is likely to exempt someone from paying sales tax on a card they bought and had sent to a "vault", instead of their home state. It just depends on how long the card is left in the vault before someone tries to repatriate it to their home state. And that is the grey area that is not specifically in any state's sales tax laws that I'm aware of. Again, at least not yet till some state(s) figures out what these "vaults" are doing, and maybe goes after them.

Not to necessarily "stir the pot", but one thing you might want to do if you're uncomfortable with this potential issue hanging over your head is to ask the "vault" operator you are using what happens, and what they are going to do to protect you, should your home state ever come after them, or you, looking for sales tax on these cards you bought. I myself would be extremely interested in hearing how they would respond to that question. Good luck!

[Peter_Spaeth]

I only read it quickly but PWCC's FAQ on its vault now makes no mention of sales tax. I think it used to. If they are steering clear of the issue, that's smart of them.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You still owe the tax, unless you choose tax evasion. It's an issue for YOU, not PWCC. Did you really think it was that easy for you to evade taxes? Your state isn't that dumb.

BioCRN,

What Peter is saying is true. My prior post was to spell out for you the story behind the issue and how it works and is likely perceived by various states. He's just more succinct and direct than I am. LOL I wanted you to understand the issues behind this a little better, and so you realize these "vaults" are, as I mentioned in an earlier post, often times taking advantage of human greed and laziness to pull in more people. And they aren't necessarily concerned with what they are proposing being 100% legal because technically, as Peter alluded to, the issue is mostly on you and not with the "vault" operator.

See, the sales tax is to either be collected and remitted by the seller of something, or paid by the buyer as what is then termed "use tax" if the seller was not otherwise required to collect and remit the sales tax. But if you buy something from say an AH or on Ebay, and have it sent to a "vault", that "vault" operator is not the buyer or the seller, and so really has no responsible for collecting or remitting sales tax, whatsoever. And if you subsequently ask them to send you your cards, that isn't a sale either, so they have no sales tax liability on just sending you your own cards. Now you may ask, "Yeah, but what if I purchased the item through PWCC and then had them put it into their "vault" for me, aren't they then the seller also, and possibly potentially liable for collecting and remitting the sales tax as such?" That might be true if these "vaults" are not set up as entirely different and separate entities from PWCC and Goldin's sales/auction entities. And trust me, they are going to be separate legal entities for liability and other protections, just like this sales tax issues and question. That is why I suggested you ask the "vault" operator you are using what they are/will do to protect you should the sales tax people come looking and calling. Otherwise, maybe think about at least leaving your cards in the "vault" a little longer before taking them out and home with you, and come up with and have ready a reasonable and believable story as to why you then suddenly did take your cards out of the "vault", aside from "So I could get out of paying sales taxes!".

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You still owe the tax, unless you choose tax evasion. It's an issue for YOU, not PWCC. Did you really think it was that easy for you to evade taxes? Your state isn't that dumb.

I may agree with the end result but I think the issue is a bit more nuanced.