Check This Out -- The Phony Sports Illustrated / AAA Reply

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson 

I wrote the eBay seller: PacificVintageSports an e-mail about another one of his phony AAA-Graded auctions. I told him that collecting professionals on a vintage card bulletin board frequently questioned his auctions, including the one I was referring to last week. Here is his reply:

In response to your email about our listing of vintage items:

Thank you for your concern about our business and the link to the little chat room you sent us. However we do not click on links or anything that comes in our email for security reasons (you being an ex cop, I’m sure you understand) and we really don’t have the time to bother looking for some obscure little chat room just to view a negative opinion about our 100% Legal, Profitable, and Customer Oriented business.

First of all the description of the product in question and all our products are 100% accurate. This particular one says, "This item is actually from 1954. Exact Topps 1954 issue card front and back, on paper stock from the Sports Illustrated First Issue Topps Set" (which implies that they are from sports illustrated are from 1954 and are on paper stock.) If you look further in the auction it states that it is on PAPER STOCK and from SPORTS ILLUSTRATED. It has that twice and in bold and at the top of our listing in order NOT to deceive.

Second all our items ARE from the year stated. That is why we pay $$$ for the grading of these items by AAA (a very reputable, service oriented company) When someone traces the card online through their website it also comes up "PAPER STOCK" and S.I. to state they are from the magazine and not the card stock ones.

Third, our business is offering non-traditional sports memorabilia for reasonable prices that are vintage, from the past, and are actually from the era stated, in excellent conditions. How many Matthewson items do you have (you being a Matthewson collector, Dan) that are 80-100 years old that are in superb condition? It would take a large fortune to amass a collection of items that are truly "OLD" authentic that are in mint condition. You could agree with that can't you? Lots of baseball fans want truly vintage items. We provide these items at very reasonable prices (most of our starting bids are 9.99 some are 24.99) what we have discovered though is that generally the price goes up to what the masses feel that they are worth. A lot of our items are even rarer than some vintage cards, meaning there were less printed in that specified time.

How many, Tobacco Silks, Quilts, Buttons, Cigar Labels, Playing Cards, Matchbooks, PAPER PREMIUMS, cereal box cutouts, Pins, Transmitted Press Photos Not even from the original film roll, Quilts, Blankets, Board Games, Bottle tops, Coffee or Ale Mugs, or a seat -or piece of dirt from a stadium in the 1910s. How many Lighters, UNDERWEAR TAGS, Old school notebooks, watches, Old film, Casino Poker chips, Cigarette Outer Boxes with just a players name and no image, Or even an AD with no image and just a players name. Postcards of stadiums in the 1910s, written on- score cards, or schedules, or gum wrappers. HOW MANY OF THESE ITEMS DO YOU SEE AUCTIONED EVERYDAY. And you mean to say that a few business ignorant, and uncreative people say that vintage books, or images from 80-100 year old books aren’t worth anything? Even though they have been authenticated?

Also, since we have many offline REPEAT Customers, and every customer that has purchased one from an online auction are happy; we would have to say this is a successful business that is legal. What is not legal is Intentionally defaming a legitimate business, trying to send viruses and such through email (like some have done in the past to us and our associates), trying to sabotage a business - on auction sites and by harassing our customers -, which does warrant an investigation and lawsuits.

The main point is, just because someone or some people don’t approve of a product that we sell because they don’t like it, doesn’t necessarily mean that many others find satisfaction and enjoyment and take pride in owning a unique collectable that features their favorite ball player. Any business that starts off selling non-traditional products will stir up some controversy, especially among their competitors, but that’s just business, and that is why I pay our lawyers to handle. Where would we be without the: Edisons, Graham Bells, and Bill Gates’ or if there was no variety choice, innovation, or advancement in any industry or new products whatsoever.

I wouldn’t listen to anyone on a chat board anyway, because most of those people are newbies or they have too much time on their hands so they have to chat on the internet all day because they are lonely and have no life or friends and are seeking acceptance from strangers, that way they don't have to look real people in the eye. They are “BORED” so they chat and post and wait all day for a reply to some insignificant matter or question. HENCE THE TERM “MESSAGE BOARD” I don’t know if these people are afraid of real life, or most of have some kind of social acceptance problem. How many stories have you heard these days about psychos using chat boards, and other forums to prey on innocents? (Once again, you being an ex cop you should know) We make it a rule here to not even to take into consideration what these people say. It also could be just our competition spreading false rumors about us.

We do however have plenty of Christy Matthewson vintage items for sale, and personally I think he is a really good seller, they go for very cheap too. I guess he wasn’t as famous as other players in that time or his cards aren’t worth as much or whatever (we don’t know too much about vintage baseball statistics) but, we can see why you are a fan because you have the Same last name, that must be something to take pride in.

Thank you for your concern, it must have been very important to you to email us on THANKSGIVING DAY, taking time away from your family and friends to email us about this matter. So I felt it was appropriate to give a clear, concise response, that’s why this email is so long. It turkey time and at least I can print your email out, read it and some of our associates can have a giant laugh over a thanksgiving supper. 83 degrees and sunny here in Hawaii. Life just couldn’t be better.

PVS


(Back to me, Dan, now) NOTE: At the end of the e-mail, PacificVintageSports also indicates that he is in Hawaii -- which happens to be the home of AAA. Just like Roy Huff. And, in fact, he may be Roy Huff, related to Roy Huff, or business related with Roy and AAA...again, slabbing their own garbage and sloughing it off through eBay to unsuspecting buyers.

He is obviously very bitter that anyone would question his business ethics (or obvious lack thereof) and goes into quite a defensive explanation of his position...making sure to take a shot at the "newbies" and "lonelies" that post on a message board. The flaovr of his response makes it pretty clear. (I also love how he wrote in there that he has some battery of lawyers that has to handle all the controversy his auctions create...like his piece of shat AAA auctions would generate enough extra cash to pay ONE lawyer on retainer!!! LOL...)

I thought y'all might enjoy his reply. I hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving!

-dan

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Posted By: Tom

what he's doing is sadly legal. Whoever has set up this scam has taken the time to create a decent website for AAA and when you punch in the number, it pull up details for the 'card' and looks quite legitimate. I also believe that Pacificvinatagesports, Roy Huff and AAA are one in the same or closely related but unfortunately, I think what he's doing would stand up in court. It's not illegal as much as immoral and praying on the generally uneducated sports buyer.

Someone logs onto ebay and sees a T205 Mathewson for $500-$600 or T206 or E card or whatever in the $500-$1000 range and wants it but also sees the 'paper stock cutout' from a 1910 Spalding guide for $55, it's a matter of economics. Unfortunately, there's no real way to educate people until they go to re-sell this high quality, 'legal' merchandise and they see there is no secondary market for it. Then it gets rehashed on ebay to some other newbie and the original person loses their money. Sad but true that it's probably a legal operation.

The response was interesting and I think the person has told themselves enough that it's a legal, ethical business to the point that they believe it too.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...but, not completely.

First of all, listing items in the "graded cards" category on eBay just because they are graded is fraud. I don't care that eBay "allows" it, it is still fraud as they are not "cards". They are cut out pieces of toilet paper from magazines, encyclopedias, TV Guide, FingerHut, whatever... This is knowingly and intentionally misrepresenting a commercial transaction. eBay may claim to "not know" whether or not these are really classified as "cards" because they are not pro's in vintage cards. Big deal. They are not knowingly and intentionally committing the act. AAA and Roy Huff, et al, are knowingly/intentionally doing it as "professional graders" and collectors, they know they aren't cards, and that makes thier misrepresentation "fraud".

Additionally, they have added "legitimacy" to their items by slabbing them in their cheap little "holders" giving them a grade and authenticity and sell their own graded stuff. That'd be like getting rid of the USDA and letting Stuart Anderson and everyone else grade their own beef ... now, take that to every other market. Regulators and Graders should (must) be third party and indifferent. These guys do it SOLELY for their own profiteering via selling their own graded stuff. The occasional fool that falls into their web and has something graded by them is just extra revenue gravy (but, probably very infrequent). Criminy! Everyone that uses AAA and sells AAA crap lives where??? In Hawaii, right off of AAA's office doorstep. I mean, c'mon...how ridiculous and obvious is that???

Each individual step along the way, by itself, is arguably legal in its own right, but everything they do entirely, as a package, is solely to deceive and defraud people. They sell garbage to people who don't know they are buying garbage: willful and knowing misrepresentation.

On top of ALL THAT, if it is true that they are slabbing RECENT reprints of the '54 SI Cards (which it appears they are from the paper described in an earlier thread) then they are knowingly slabbing reprints and labeling them as original, flooding the market with more worthless garbage. Again, illegal.

This degrades the entire collecting market in a variety of ways. One being, novice collectors buy this shat from PacificVintageSports and Roy Huff, et al, and discover at some point they were ripped off. They lose trust for everyone in the trade, including those of us who are reputable, and who don't scam for profit, and who are in this for the real joy and interest of vintage trading/collecting. It often takes a LOT to recover someone from a loss of trust due to deception.

It also floods our market with worthless crap devaluing everything out there.

These guys are at the VERY LEAST highly unethical and very costly to our vintage card market. Purposely deceiving people is a form of fraud. It matters nothing to me that eBay "allows" this and that. Hell: we have complained to eBay directly about Broadway Rick's direct, illegal and unethical, eBay policy-violating shill bidding. And what do they do? Nothing. That jackass even admitted it in the MSNBC commentary/article later on!!! Still, nothing! Every bidder in his auctions could have (and should have) charged him with internet fraud.

Next thing you know, Roy Huff and PacificVintageSports will be showing up with Power Seller and Square Trade logos on their auctions. Won't that be pretty?

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

I agree that much of the seller's response is condescending and gratuitous. Still, if we can determine from the paper or photography that the "cards" offered by these guys are reprints, it seems that they're on the hook.


<<First of all the description of the product in question and all our products are 100% accurate. This particular one says, "This item is actually from 1954. Exact Topps 1954 issue card front and back, on paper stock from the Sports Illustrated First Issue Topps Set" (which implies that they are from sports illustrated are from 1954 and are on paper stock.) If you look further in the auction it states that it is on PAPER STOCK and from SPORTS ILLUSTRATED. It has that twice and in bold and at the top of our listing in order NOT to deceive.

Second all our items ARE from the year stated. That is why we pay $$$ for the grading of these items by AAA (a very reputable, service oriented company) When someone traces the card online through their website it also comes up "PAPER STOCK" and S.I. to state they are from the magazine and not the card stock ones.>>

If they are from 1954, then I guess I find little wrong with selling them, for reasons stated in my other post.
Regards........Todd

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

This guy mis-categorizes his stuff, and eBay won't do anything about it. This bothers me a lot.

Aside from that, this stuff is stupid, but if it's a free country and people can buy and sell what they want.

Guy walks onto a used car lot, sees a rusty old Pinto.

Guy: "Hey, how's that one run?"

Salesman: "It runs about as well as any Pinto. It was a fine car when it was new."

Guy: "Is this price about what they go for?"

Salesman: "It's what we always try to get."

Guy: "I'll take it. Do you want my trade-in?"

Salesman: "Sure, we'll recycle it for you for $100."

Guy: "Sounds good."

You can spend your whole life trying to protect people like this, or you can let them live their own lives. I think that beyond a certain age, everyone needs to take a certain amount of responsibility for their own buying and selling decisions.

bruce

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Posted By: leon

I think what they do is repulsively legal. They need their asses kicked and if they get their surfing butts down here I would gladly try to oblige. They prey on ignorance and make our hobby worse for it. regards all

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Posted By: runscott

Let these people cut up vintage books that can't be replaced. Shut up and let them mislead novices to believe they are actually "cards" graded by a reputable "grading company".

Yes, Bruce, we should just let them be, misleading fraudulent seller and unsuspecting novice alike.

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

I don't like that they are cutting up vintage books, but unfortunately, that is perfectly legal. There is a huge market is butchered vintage material now -- it's called "game used". I don't like that, either, but for some reason people keep buying and selling it even though I've clearly stated my objections. Fine.

Here we have someone selling junk, and you think that novices are being snookered.

I don't think that novices are being snookered. I think that it's either a case of a) people exhibiting poor taste, or b) idiots being idiots.

Poor taste is legal.

Novices aren't necessarily idiots. Anyone who buys a Beckett, anyone who goes to a card shop and talks to the owner, anyone who goes to a card show and looks at what is being sold, anyone who spends five minute browsing items, anyone who *reads the auction description for the item they are bidding on*, anyone who does any of this should know that this stuff is not the same as the stuff appearing anywhere else.

If someone won't take even the most simple, elementary, rudimentary steps to avoid wasting their money, why should anyone care if they waste their money?

I'm all for helping people avoid dubious material, but what good does it do to try to help people who won't do the first thing to research what they buy?

bruce

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

Lets you know what you did for a living, notes the "Mathewson" connection, yuk.

Since the reprinted SI "cards" are identical to the originals, how could anyone prove they weren't original?

We come back to eBay being obviously satisfied with accepting AAA stuff as legit, which they apparently do.
Again, yuk.

These SI "cards" actually do have some monetary value, and are certainly more legitimate than snippets out of magazines, pictures that were printed to be enjoyed while reading an article, nothing more. If eBay were ever to change its mind about AAA, it would be for doing something like encapsulaing (slabbing) some of those, I would think.

But it doesn't look like they are going to change their minds...

Yuk.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

He called me a newbie with no social life and implies I have psycological problems. I believe that is slander and I will get my team of lawyers after him. If you would like to join in the suit just send me $10 and I will send you a receipt authenticated by AAA.

As far as the psycho problems I only seem to get them when Hawaii is mentioned.

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Posted By: leon

One of my favorite sayings is that I don't mind being ignorant too much as that is not a bad thing. It is just a "thing". (I am not trying to be condescending here)... Ignorant is just "not knowing"...on the other hand if you know and STILL make the mistake-that is what is called stupid. The novices you are talking about might still be ignorant and are going to get burned for it...that's not too cool .....regards all

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Posted By: leon

I was responding to Bruce on this last post...NOT Dan... who is the propreitor of the thread....sorry about that....regardless, I think there are a lot of novices/ignorant AND stupid people being taken on the AAA shat...regards all

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...I don't disagree that "a fool and his money are soon parted."

I just feel that:

1) For the novice, we all make mistakes when we first come out there. I did, we all did. That doesn't make them an idiot who deserves to be screwed by these jerks.

2) By them flooding the vintage card market with crap, counterfeits, and intentionally mislabeled cards, it hurts all of us to some degree, like it or not. I don't believe in keeping quiet about it. Pretty soon, so much garbage will be out there that potential buyers have much lesser trust of anyone selling a vintage item. And, that isn't good.

3) Don't get me wrong. I sell almost none of my stuff, and I'd never by a damm thing from these shysters. But, hey...I see new names on this board every month, sometimes weekly. When new crap comes up from Roy Huff and his ilk, I think it's ok to talk about it. I don't think everyone new to this board goes back and reads every thread...

-dan

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Posted By: leon

I agree.......

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

I think that these are so easy to spot that anyone should be able to spot them, and if someone bids on this, they are either hopeless or marching to the beat of their own drummer.

This stuff is not listed in any catalog. The implication is that any "newbie" who falls for this isn't even looking the stuff up.

Why spend a lot of energy helping someone who can't possibly know what they are buying since the stuff isn't cataloged, and can't possibly know what it's worth, since it is in no price guide?

These people are bidding on stuff they can't possibly have even tried to understand!

This is different from counterfeit, reprinted, or over-graded material. Not everyone can be an expert on everything all at once. But if someone is bidding on "mainstream" bogus material, at least they are *trying*, because at least they have figured out what a card is. I'd happily spend energy helping these people to get it right, and in fact a large portion of my website is devoted to helping novices understand these very issues.

bruce

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

Leave aside the fact that reprints exist and may be identical. Leave aside all the other garbage this seller slabs and auctions. Aren't at least some 54 SI cards legit?

The thread goes on again about this particular seller and how certain people need to be protected, others are too stupid to deserve protection, etc. I get it.

The SCD catalogue (at least from 1999) identifies the sheet, says singles are rarely encountered, but then lists values for individual "cards". Why wouldn't someone doing their homework conclude that these may be legit and accepted in the hobby? Again, what if these "cards" are indeed from 1954--suppose seller still has the subscription card or whatever other proof to show that they are not reprints. Then what exactly is the beef with regard to these and only these items?

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Posted By: decon

DAN YOU EDITED THE EMAIL BEFORE YOU POSTED IT ON THE BOARD. WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF? HERE IS THE PART THAT DAN EDITED OUT BEFORE HE POSTED IT. GOOD LUCK....


We do however have plenty of Christy Matthewson vintage items for sale, and personally I think he is a really good seller, they go for very cheap too. I guess he wasn’t as famous as other players in that time or his cards aren’t worth as much or whatever (we don’t know too much about vintage baseball statistics) but, we can see why you are a fan because you have the Same last name, that must be something to take pride in. Just think, you could be related to him then based solely on that, it would gain some respect about your opinion (about what subject I don’t know, but it might impress someone on one of those message boards) I know it’s a good chance you are not related because a lot of people have Mathewson as a last name and could claim blood relation but, I would check into that if I were you. Trace the family history back in hopes to live vicariously through an ancestor. Or maybe appear at some card conventions so people can get your autograph.



Thank you for your concern, it must have been very important to you to email us on THANKSGIVING DAY, taking time away from your family and friends to email us about this matter. So I felt it was appropriate to give a clear, concise response, that’s why this email is so long. It turkey time and at least I can print your email out, read it and some of our associates can have a giant laugh over a thanksgiving supper. 83 degrees and sunny here in Hawaii. Life just couldn’t be better.

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Posted By: MW

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Roy or close associate of Roy,

If anything, this makes Dan look more sensible, not less and it makes you look even worse. How does that saying go about someone supplying his own rope?