T-206 Master List vs. Inaccurate PSA Master Set

[JP]

Scot Reader's Master List, accurate as of May 2009 I believe, can be found here.

Meanwhile, PSA's T-206 Master Set Composition can be found here.

PSA's list is missing numerous variations, and also has numerous cards that can't exist. For example, most people familiar with T-206s know that the O'hara and Demmitt St. Louis variations are rare because they were only printed with Polar Bear backs. Yet, PSA's Master Set composition lists 3 alternative, impossible backs for Demmitt and 1 impossible back for O'hara.

Not only is PSA's T-206 Master set impossible to complete, but if it were, it still would not even be close to a completion of the front/back combinations that are possible. So why is it even listed? Or why hasn't it ever been properly updated after all this time?

SIDE NOTE: Apparently Levi is the only guy on earth interested in making a go at it!

[tedzan]

Regarding your......" SIDE NOTE: Apparently Levi is the only guy on earth interested in making a go at it! "

Levi B., who I've known since 1981, is only the most recent guy to attempt a "master set" of T206's. Prior to Levi, I was
collecting T206 sub-sets. Prior to my T206 adventures, Brian Weisner and Art Martineau. Before them, Tony Carrafiell, Bill
Heitman, and Irv Lerner....to mention a few. I'm sure there are others that I've left out. So, what are you talking about ?

FYI....in 2005, I broke up my 2nd T206 set and started an all-PIEDMONT set. To date, I have accumulated 2104 different
T206 front/back combinations. The following details my T206 sub-sets and additional T206's..........

CARDS
-------
521......PIEDMONT factory 25 (-Doyle, Plank, Wagner)

408......SOVEREIGN (COMPLETE)

467......SWEET CAPORAL factory #30 (-Plank, Wagner)

.35......SWEET CAPORAL factory #649 (COMPLETE)

.50......SWEET CAPORAL factory #42 (overprint)....partially complete

.66......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 (near complete)

557......additional T206's with BROAD LEAF, CAROLINA BRIGHTS, CYCLE, DRUM, EPDG, HINDU, LENOX, OLD MILL, PIEDMONT,
--------POLAR BEAR, TOLSTOI, UZIT backs

2104......TOTAL cards


Will I continue to collect towards a Master set of T206's....that remains to be seen ?
More significant, is that my approach to collecting these T206 cards, is one which is structured. Resulting in identifying the
elusive No-Prints in these sub-sets.

TED Z

P.S.
So, try to get your facts straight before you post. And, your reference to PSA's list is a joke. Scot Reader's data and Bill
Brown's "super-set" excel spreadsheet are the most accurate.

[JP]

Ted, did you even read what I wrote??? It appears not...

The ENTIRE point of what I wrote was that PSA's master set composition is totally screwed up and inaccurate AND therefore impossible, and the question was why HADN'T they consulted something like Scot Reader's highly accurate master list to fix their errors? Instead you apparently didn't read a single word of what I wrote and focused on a single side comment I posted at the end.

You focused on the comment about Levi's current REGISTRY attempt on the master set and ignored absolutely everything that was said before that. The side comment was based on the PSA registries, and Levi IS the only one to complete even a third of that shoddy master list PSA has pulled out of their a$$.

Maybe you were so anxious to tell everyone about all the different T-206s you own that you completely overlooked my entire post. My god, even the title of the thread is about how PSA's list is inaccurate!

[tedzan]

There was no need to tell us about PSA's inaccurate list.....it's common knowledge.

And YES, this comment of yours required a response......

" SIDE NOTE: Apparently Levi is the only guy on earth interested in making a go at it! "

Especially this excerpt......"the only guy on earth"......this is so over the top, are you serious ! ?


I'm not to far from Levi's place; and, visit with him occasionally. We have shared our T206 info over the many years.


TED Z

[JP]

Originally Posted by tedzan

There was no need to tell us about PSA's inaccurate list.....it's common knowledge.

Ah...I see you've FINALLY read what I wrote and realized that you had it completely backwards....and realized that what you were angry with me about made no sense, since we were on the same side!!!

To say that there is no need to talk about PSA's inaccurate list may be your curmudgeonly opinion, but there are others of us out there who might feel differently. I was hoping to stimulate enough conversation on this topic so that PSA would actually get off of their a$$es and FIX their inaccurate registry...that way more than just Levi would be interested in participating.

Originally Posted by tedzan

And YES, this comment of yours required a response......
" SIDE NOTE: Apparently Levi is the only guy on earth interested in making a go at it! "
Especially this excerpt......"the only guy on earth"......this is so over the top, are you serious ! ?

Well, let's see.

1. We live on planet earth.
2. PSA has only one T-206 Master Set registry
3. The list of the all-time finest registered sets is here
4. And Levi is the only person to have ever completed even 1/3rd of it

So the statement that "Levi appears to be the only person on earth making a go at the PSA master set registry" is 100% accurate. I don't care if you and 1,000 of your friends have complete raw master sets, we're talking about the PSA registry here, and I don't see their names....

I, for one, would appreciate it if PSA would take the time to read Scot Reader's research and fix the required items for the master set. I, for one, would then be more likely to try and complete it, as I'm sure others would. Owning a REAL master set in PSA graded cards would be worthless at the moment because it wouldn't fit into their required item parameters.

[ullmandds]

I wish PSA would get better at accurately grading and labeling the cards they grade...prior to honing their stupid registry...just my opinion.

[JP]

Grading will always be somewhat subjective. So there will always be those who think on both ends of the spectrum - that PSA grades well or doesn't.

Labeling errors will happen no matter what...it's the law of averages. And since they offer free corrections of mislabeling, there isn't much more that they can do than that.

As far as their "stupid" registry goes, it does have its upsides and downsides. I happen to like the keeping track via a checklist aspect. The point of this thread is to get PSA to fix their inaccurate checklist for the PSA master set, so that potential collectors like myself could attempt it. As long as it stays uncompletable and inaccurate, it is worthless.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by JP

So the statement that "Levi appears to be the only person on earth making a go at the PSA master set registry" is 100% accurate. I don't care if you and 1,000 of your friends have complete raw master sets, we're talking about the PSA registry here, and I don't see their names.....

JP, that is a bit over the top there are lots of non-graded collections of T206's out there. Ted is just trying to explain that one can't go off these sites as to what has been done in the collecting hobby.

Keep in mind PSA and SGC are pretty new to the hobby still, card collectors have been around long before grading companies.

As for pop-reports and lists from grading companies most all are way off, if you want to fix them email the company direct.

Just my 2 cents.

[Mikehealer]

If the point of this thread is to get PSA to fix one of their problems, why
not just contact them. It may not do any good, but at least you will be contacting the source of the problem. Seems simple enough.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by JP

The point of this thread is to get PSA to fix their inaccurate checklist for the PSA master set, so that potential collectors like myself could attempt it. As long as it stays uncompletable and inaccurate, it is worthless.

As stated above contact them and take the initiative if it bothers you or is impacting your collecting.

[tiger8mush]

I agree, JP. With the resources from this board alone, PSA could update alot of their T206 registry to account for impossible front/back combos. And if an "impossible" one did surface, then they could update their registry accordingly.

IMO, it would be good business for PSA. A smaller checklist would make a "monster" set appear more attainable, thus attracting more people to the registry and making it more competitive. More competition of course leads to more PSA slabbing, and if they undergrade then they'll get more resubmittals from people looking for higher grades.

But, maybe PSA doesn't see it that way?

Good luck with a master set, JP, if you decide to take that route! Keep us updated!

Rob

[JP]

Originally Posted by JP

So the statement that "Levi appears to be the only person on earth making a go at the PSA master set registry" is 100% accurate. I don't care if you and 1,000 of your friends have complete raw master sets, we're talking about the PSA registry here, and I don't see their names....

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

JP, that is a bit over the top there are lots of non-graded collections of T206's out there. Ted is just trying to explain that one can't go off these sites as to what has been done in the collecting hobby.

Wow, you just responded to my quote that stated this WASN'T about non-registered raw sets to tell me there are raw sets out there. Like Ted, you're not reading what I'm writing. This is about the PSA registry ONLY!

Actually, my statement about Levi it is not at all over the top. It isn't even a slight exaggeration, it is 100% accurate. Like Ted, you are COMPLETELY missing the point. (Although, I'm pretty sure Ted just wanted another chance to list all of his T-206s instead of actually reading my post.) My statement was in regards to the PSA registry, NOT card collecting as a whole. THIS IS ONLY REGARDS TO THE REGISTRY, GET IT NOW? It doesn't matter if a thousand people have completed the master set, I'm talking about the registry. Don't know too many other ways I can say it. REGISTRY, REGISTRY, REGISTRY!

You look at the basic T-206 set registry here and you've got 100s of people, past and present, trying to complete this set and compete with eachother. And then you have the master set registry here and only one guy ever has completed more than a third of it.

My point is that if PSA had an accurately compiled master set registry available, that would likely stimulate competition and actually get people to attempt to complete it. And the solution to "just call PSA" is a worthless suggestion. You think I'm the first person to notice their jumbled mess of a master registry and call them? I think it will take a GROUP effort to get them to actually change!

[ullmandds]

If I were you, JP, I'd take it to PSA's message board...they may care there.

[JP]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

I agree, JP. With the resources from this board alone, PSA could update alot of their T206 registry to account for impossible front/back combos. And if an "impossible" one did surface, then they could update their registry accordingly.

IMO, it would be good business for PSA. A smaller checklist would make a "monster" set appear more attainable, thus attracting more people to the registry and making it more competitive. More competition of course leads to more PSA slabbing, and if they undergrade then they'll get more resubmittals from people looking for higher grades.

But, maybe PSA doesn't see it that way?

Good luck with a master set, JP, if you decide to take that route! Keep us updated!

Rob

Wow! Thanks Rob! Sounds like you actually did read what I wrote and get it!!!! You may be the first!!!

I believe it would take minimal effort on PSA's part to fix the master registry and yield huge results both participation-wise and financially.

[JP]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

If I were you, JP, I'd take it to PSA's message board...they may care there.

That's the beauty of this forum and this thread. If you care about the issue, you can contribute. If you don't care about the issue (which it appears you don't) then you can go and find a thread elsewhere that you DO care about, and post there.

There are far more T-206 collectors here at Net54 than in the Collector's Universe Forums for PSA...so I believe this thread is in the right place for now. Plus PSA can't modify this thread to fit their agenda.....

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

If I were you, JP, I'd take it to PSA's message board...they may care there.

+1

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by JP

I believe it would take minimal effort on PSA's part to fix the master registry and yield huge results both participation-wise and financially.

And, what was their response when you asked them to do this? (You did ask them, first, before complaining about it, correct?)

[Potomac Yank]

He's a Newbie, desperately looking for expert status.

He hasn't discovered the Doyle yet.

JP is a flipper!

Like Rob D. said ... JP will flip by 1 April, before he receives the card.

[wonkaticket]

"And the solution to "just call PSA" is a worthless suggestion."

I'm sorry if you felt my suggestion of contacting PSA was worthless...

Also I thought Pete's idea of their (PSA) forum wasn't that bad of an idea...you seem to rag Ted for talking down to you..but seems you dont mind doing the very same to others.

Best of luck with your collecting.

[JP]

Moderators, can you please keep Jim VB, Potomac Yank, and Rob D. (if he shows up here) from hijacking yet another one of my threads?

[Leon]

Joe- I would venture to guess that over half of us on the board flip (or buy and sell some cards). Nothing wrong with it. Heck, I am working on flipping cards I don't even have yet (though I DID already win them) .....

It seems as though every time JP makes a statement he gets bombarded. Lets see if we can't play with each other a bit nicer, huh? We are all collectors (well almost all of us) so lets act like it. If I continue to see unwarranted jabs and attacks I am not going to sit idly by. No one should fear posting because they think they will be ridiculed. I think that number probably grows each day and I am getting fed up with it, quite honestly. Of course it's ok to expose fraud and bad sellers and such, but all of the negativity about everything just has to cease. I may be the only one left on the board but it's going to change, and soon. Thanks for listening.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by JP

Moderators, can you please keep Jim VB, Potomac Yank, and Rob D. (if he shows up here) from hijacking yet another one of my threads?

I fail to see how I'm "hijacking" what you think is "your thread."

I made 2 posts. I gave a +1 to Peter's post, suggesting you take it to the PSA board (since it's a PSA problem.) And I seconded Jon's suggestion that you contact PSA. (I'm shocked you haven't done that already.)

How is that a "hijack?"

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by JP

Moderators, can you please keep Jim VB, Potomac Yank, and Rob D. (if he shows up here) from hijacking yet another one of my threads?

*

Only your BS is allowed.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by JP

Scot Reader's Master List, accurate as of May 2009 I believe, can be found here.

Meanwhile, PSA's T-206 Master Set Composition can be found here.

PSA's list is missing numerous variations, and also has numerous cards that can't exist. For example, most people familiar with T-206s know that the O'hara and Demmitt St. Louis variations are rare because they were only printed with Polar Bear backs. Yet, PSA's Master Set composition lists 3 alternative, impossible backs for Demmitt and 1 impossible back for O'hara.

Not only is PSA's T-206 Master set impossible to complete, but if it were, it still would not even be close to a completion of the front/back combinations that are possible. So why is it even listed? Or why hasn't it ever been properly updated after all this time?

SIDE NOTE: Apparently Levi is the only guy on earth interested in making a go at it!

JP,

You do realize that you did not mention the PSA Set Registry once in your original post. You mentioned the master set composition. While you may find the master set composition in the PSA Registry section, it's not the same thing.

[tedzan]

The "earth", or is it the world, does NOT live by PSA alone (nor SGC). There are more BB card collectors of vintage & post-war sportscards
than there are collectors of graded stuff. And, this will always be true in this hobby.

There are many of us who don't give a rat's-a$$-less about PSA, or their registry. I have nothing against graded cards.....to each his own.
Like many others for the past 135 years, I prefer to collect sportscards that I can touch and feel in my hands.

A bunch of us on this forum are getting fed up with your sarcastic responses. And, that is evident by your constant QUOTING of everyone.
It's indicative an argumentative mindset.....not someone who wants to have a meaningful dialogue. Review your past posts, it's a recurring
"agitation" in many of your posts.


A master set of T206's comprises of approx. 5200 permutations of the 524 fronts and the numerous backs. So far, my 2104 cards represent
40 % of these permutations.

Incidently, how many different T206's do you have ?


TED Z

[lharri3600]

mike,
you hit the nail right in the middle!!

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

If the point of this thread is to get PSA to fix one of their problems, why
not just contact them. It may not do any good, but at least you will be contacting the source of the problem. Seems simple enough.

[JP]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

JP,

You do realize that you did not mention the PSA Set Registry once in your original post. You mentioned the master set composition. While you may find the master set composition in the PSA Registry section, it's not the same thing.

The "list" is the PSA registry's T-206 master set composition. It is the heart of the issue, what makes participation to complete the list so sparse. The list is the registry, the registry is made from the list.

To those suggesting I contact PSA, I assumed this was just another dig that seems to be sent my way. I've emailed PSA about it in the past. The response was as expected - no response.

To those suggesting I post this on PSA's forum, you think they are going to let a post crticizing their service survive and flourish? Think again.

And lastly, I'm not sure how flipping came up again...it seems Potomac Yank's go to joke. I am not a flipper. I've been collecting for over 25 years and the LARGE percentage of my collection has been unchanged for many years. I sell a bunch of dupes that I recently bought, an one notable Plank and suddenly I'm a flipper. If you don't know me, don't label me.

Lastly, I've been a member of this forum for years, just took time off during the transition from the old boards to the new. I am not a newbie, to collecting or these boards.

[JP]

Ted,

This thread was never about all of the collections and cards that may be out there. This thread was ONLY about PSA's messed up registry. If you don't care about PSA, then don't post in this thread! But to answer my post with a completely irrelevant off-topic response about non-PSA graded cards is not going to yield a happy response from me.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Incidently, how many different T206's do you have ?
TED Z

Really?

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

I fail to see how I'm "hijacking" what you think is "your thread."

I made 2 posts. I gave a +1 to Peter's post, suggesting you take it to the PSA board (since it's a PSA problem.) And I seconded Jon's suggestion that you contact PSA. (I'm shocked you haven't done that already.)

How is that a "hijack?"

JP,

Please answer my simple question.

[JP]

Originally Posted by Potomac Yank

*

Only your BS is allowed.

Potomac, I get that you don't like me because you have a misguided notion I'm a flipper. Fine, whatever.

But how is my bringing up PSA's inaccurate registry set composition BS? You do know what "BS" stands for, don't you?

I've never seen so many people come into a thread and say "I don't care about the topic in this thread". If you don't like the topic, why not just read a different one and contribute there?

[JP]

Originally Posted by tedzan

....that is evident by your constant QUOTING of everyone.
It's indicative an argumentative mindset.....not someone who wants to have a meaningful dialogue. Review your past posts, it's a recurring
"agitation" in many of your posts.


A master set of T206's comprises of approx. 5200 permutations of the 524 fronts and the numerous backs. So far, my 2104 cards represent
40 % of these permutations.

Incidently, how many different T206's do you have ?


TED Z

I apologize if quoting is considered a rude thing. I had no idea. I only do it to make it clear which post I'm responding to. No one has told me before that it was considered rude, and I've never heard anything along those lines in any other forum.

In regards to your question as to how many T-206s I have...do you want me just to say "less than you"? Will that make you happy? What a bully-ish thing to even ask...and you wonder why my responses to you are so harsh. You may know more than anyone about the set, but it doesn't mean you can belittle others who have less cards than you.

[Abravefan11]

JP - Your post is relevant in this forum IMO. However if you truly want to see the registry changed you should make a post on the PSA boards as well. If your post is written from the point of constructive change and not slamming PSA no one should have a problem with it over there.

I agree that given the information that is readily available today PSA should have a more accurate registry.

[barrysloate]

I hadn't even read this thread until just now. Are we having yet another fight? We are averaging several a day....and JP, why are you always in the middle of them? It can't just be coincidence.

And the amazing thing is Bruce is even around anymore. That was supposed to calm things down.

[JP]

No coincidence, Barry. I'm a target for a group of people in this forum. Making anything I say into controversy is their goal, and they are succeeding.

[JP]

Tim, I'll think about it. If PSA doesn't like what I have to say, no matter how constructive, all future PSA submissions may suffer...even though all submissions are anonymous of course...

[barrysloate]

So what's the answer? How do we calm things down a little?

[Rob D.]

JP,

Keep fighting the good fight. And by all means, keep posting. Please!

Edited to add: No "hijacking" intended.

[JP]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

So what's the answer? How do we calm things down a little?

No idea. I'm not a moderator so I can't control what others post. Maybe if people posted when they had something to contribute, and kept it at that, things would be different. Either that, or I just don't post anymore and someone else becomes the target of fraternal bullying. I believe all of my thread starters have been relevant, hobby-related issues, so I don't know what different I can do.

[JP]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

JP,

Keep fighting the good fight. And by all means, keep posting. Please!

Edited to add: No "hijacking" intended.

Just making a suggestion to help improve the options available to collectors within the hobby...

No idea if you're being serious...but I will always do whatever I can to become further educated, and help others further their collections through knowledge and resources. If I get mocked, then so be it.

If you're being serious, thanks.

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by Leon

Joe- I would venture to guess that over half of us on the board flip (or buy and sell some cards). Nothing wrong with it. Heck, I am working on flipping cards I don't even have yet (though I DID already win them) ......

*

Anyone that has met me, or knows me, will know that I'm not against all flippers.

Like the various types of Collectors, there are various types of flippers.

One example of a collector is the Cardoholic, one that buys, and never sells.

One example of a flipper is the one that sells in order to buy what he/she collects.

Although I collect errors, and variations, I'm not going to go into the various types of collectors, and flippers, if you don't know them by now, you're not paying attention.

Your forum is a nice forum, but it's becoming more, and more flipper oriented as time goes by.

Collectors use to contribute alot more, now you're seeing less, and less talk about cards, and sets, and more and more about vintage slabs and cross overs.

Leon, JP is getting jumped (in NYC we call it, "Being Alerted") because some collectors are getting tired of his kind of BS.

Also, not to worry about putting the Kabosh on collectors that speak up.

Talk off line by collectors is that they're getting tired of the increased bad flipper oriented mind set of the forum, and thinking of a less involvement.
Until now, I've been telling them to stick with the program, but now that you're thinking about putting the Kabosh on collectors that SPEAK UP, I'm thinking of joining them in the LESS INVOLVEMENT.

Is there another forum that's a little more Collector oriented?

[usernamealreadytaken]

You know, for some, posting on this forum is like being the wizard of OZ...can talk big and bad and rude...but why do you?

[ullmandds]

Joe...well spoken...and I agree!

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

So what's the answer? How do we calm things down a little?

Barry - That questions has a pretty simple solution however implementing it is another matter.

JP like many others has become a lightening rod for a few that no matter how hobby related one of his posts may be, they will use the opportunity to post something sarcastic or get in a good zinger.

If they don't like him, think he's a bad guy, think he's not knowledgeable, etc., then just don't post in his thread.

For JP he needs to not respond to them. From time to time Bruce for example would start a thread with a good hobby related topic and before long the pilers on would be there to derail it. Once he responded the flame war was on and nothing of any baseball related substance could be expected after that.

[tedzan]

I share my BB card knowledge with as many as I can. I am not "belittling" (to use your wording) you by asking this very basic and
straightforward question......

HOW MANY T206's DO YOU HAVE IN YOUR COLLECTION ?

JIM R (and others) asked you a very basic and straightforward question in your other thread regarding your three BROAD LEAF 460
cards and you refused to answer that one, too.

Do you understand how your responses (or none responses) are starting to grate against us, who are trying to have a dialogue with
you ?

Get that damn "chip off your shoulder" and try to be friendly....and, you'll see that some of us will reciprocate.


TED Z

[barrysloate]

That's a fair point...if JP just listed the BL460's we would have saved a lot of grief. The question wasn't sarcastic, people on this board checklist every T206 back and there was the potential for a new addition. So I agree JP should have just answered the question.

[JP]

I'm sorry if you think it devious or suspect or rude or whatever for me to not share the details of my collection. Every registry I have with PSA and SGC is private. The details of my collection are private. And in neither instance is what I own relevant, so I don't see why it has become an issue.

Your inquiry as to how many t-206s I have was immediately following your statement that you own thousands. I know exactly why you asked that question, and so do you.

[JP]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

That's a fair point...if JP just listed the BL460's we would have saved a lot of grief. The question wasn't sarcastic, people on this board checklist every T206 back and there was the potential for a new addition. So I agree JP should have just answered the question.

Barry, information was being held hostage until I disclosed which BL460s I owned...even though it wasn't relevant to MY thread. I'm under no obligation to share what I own or what I have owned. I'm aware of the Ted Z checklist of BL460s and none of mine were unknowns.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

That's a fair point...if JP just listed the BL460's we would have saved a lot of grief. The question wasn't sarcastic, people on this board checklist every T206 back and there was the potential for a new addition. So I agree JP should have just answered the question.

Sorry about this Barry but I will call bullcrap on that one. The reason he was being questioned is because people weren't believing him. Lets at least keep it real. You are still one of my favorite guys ..regards

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

So I agree JP should have just answered the question.

The simple solution doesn't always make it the right solution.

I agree that if JP just posted the 3 BL460's that would have been the end of it. But was his past or present card holdings relevant to the discussion?

I know why Jim R (Hey Jim ) wanted the information, but in withholding his response to JP's initial post until he got it may not have been the way to go about getting it either.

Many collectors don't like to discuss their collections publicly. Or if they do, only the parts they wish to discuss.