PWCC's 1936 Goudey World Wide Gum DiMaggio PSA 7

[Snapolit1]

Interesting debate. When I go to sell my house I'm hoping to brush over a couple of 100 flaws/issues. I won't actively deceive anyone, or make any affirmative claims that are false, but I'm going to do everything I can to make the house present well and detract attention away from its shortcomings. Might slap some paint on the side of the house that turns to hell after a few months for some odd reason. May scrub the garage door that always attracts some green mold crud. Does that make me a bad guy?

Did anyone ever answer how we know this is the same card?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Interesting debate. When I go to sell my house I'm hoping to brush over a couple of 100 flaws/issues. I won't actively deceive anyone, or make any affirmative claims that are false, but I'm going to do everything I can to make the house present well and detract attention away from its shortcomings. Might slap some paint on the side of the house that turns to hell after a few months for some odd reason. May scrub the garage door that always attracts some green mold crud. Does that make me a bad guy?

Did anyone ever answer how we know this is the same card?

People get their panties in a wad when there is a lack of transparency. That is understandable. I have no issue with the cleaner card. It looks great. And I don't blame PSA one bit. I have been told by one of the best graders I know, who has had personal cards conserved and cleaned, said there was literally NO way he could tell anything was done to his cards. It isn't PSA's fault if there is nothing to see.

.

[orly57]

Originally Posted by Leon

People get their panties in a wad when there is a lack of transparency. That is understandable. I have no issue with the cleaner card. It looks great. And I don't blame PSA one bit. I have been told by one of the best graders I know, who has had personal cards conserved and cleaned, and he said there was literally NO way he could tell anything was done to his cards. It isn't PSA's fault if there is nothing to see.

.

Leon, I disagree that it isn't psa' fault. First of all, the card is off centered and is at best a 6(st). Second, on a low pop card like this, a cursory search of past sales would have easily revealed the alteration. Heck, our own hawk-eyed member caught it and he isn't a professional grader. When your grading evaluation means the difference between a 5k card and a 35k card, you owe the card community that diligence if you proclaim to be the the best in the business. Like JC said,this was obviously submitted by a preferred client and they over-graded without any research whatsoever.

[Leon]

Disagree all you want to. It is a chat board. The reality is that if a grader can't see a fault they aren't going to discount the grade for it. No matter how much you disagree it won't change that fact.

Originally Posted by orly57

Leon, I disagree that it isn't psa' fault. First of all, the card is off centered and is at best a 6(st). Second, on a low pop card like this, a cursory search of past sales would have easily revealed the alteration. Heck, our own hawk-eyed member caught it and he isn't a professional grader. Like JC said,this was submitted by a preferred client and they over-graded without any research whatsoever.

[orly57]

Originally Posted by Leon

Disagree all you want to. It is a chat board. The reality is that if a grader can't see a fault they aren't going to discount the grade for it. No matter how much you disagree it won't change that fact.

You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by orly57

You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.

And if you look and still can't see it you, you still can't take off for it.
I might even go as far as to say even IF they did see the before picture, it is STILL graded correctly today.

[Peter_Spaeth]

My guess is that this card has had significant chemical intervention, in which case it is not a "small small" matter as Brent suggests. I hope I am wrong.

And I will go further to say that if he is aware that the card was restored/altered to make a significant difference in its appearance and grade, he is withholding a material fact.

[orly57]

I would suspect that they would have to tag it as "altered" if they saw the transformation no? And a 7 with that centering is a stretch in my opinion. I just don't think that I or any of us get a 7 on that card if we sent it in. And why no qualifier on the stain? In this case, the whole card is stained except for the two light areas.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by orly57

You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.

++

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by orly57

You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.

Orlando, too true, and perhaps typifies the eternal conflict between buyer and seller, particularly for an amazing card like the WWG JD RC. Where I get lost in the process is what differentiates what is thought of as harmless touch-ups and what becomes, gulp, restoration. I kinda always believed that if the cardboard remained undisturbed, no trimming, no corner restoration etc., then it was ok to sell as long as it was disclosed the card had been superficially improved. Of course, grading impacts all of that. Who knows?

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Orlando, too true, and perhaps typifies the eternal conflict between buyer and seller, particularly for an amazing card like the WWG JD RC. Where I get lost in the process is what differentiates what is thought of as harmless touch-ups and what becomes, gulp, restoration. I kinda always believed that if the cardboard remained undisturbed, no trimming, no corner restoration etc., then it was ok to sell as long as it was disclosed the card had been superficially improved. Of course, grading impacts all of that. Who knows?

Do, you think that PWCC should update their auction of this new information about the card? It seems common practice that other reputable auction houses do this as they learn of things that could affect the sale both good and bad.

[Sean1125]

,

Brent Huigens
8:34 AM (19 minutes ago)

to me
I'm aware of the Net54 thread.

Ultimately small small restoration issues like this (scrapbook removal, wax removal, etc) is a gray area in the hobby but ultimately it's up to PSA and their quality control standards to determine what's acceptable and what is not. Card is a very good 7...looks graded right to me.

Brent
-Sent from mobile

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

,

This is the same response you will get 100 percent of the time.

[dariushou]

This card will likely be won by one of pwcc's disciples and then auctioned off in a few more months at a lower price, but still at a very handsome profit. I see S***N is shilling it up. i think i've written about him in many previous posts...loves to shill those pwcc auctions.

This card has undoubtedly been doctored. I think more than just water, but i think this is besides the point. The stain is crystal clear even on the doctored version. If I sent that card in it would be a 4 or 5 at best. No way do I get that through to PSA and get a 7. Not in a thousand years. This stinks like you know what!

[orly57]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

,

Reads a bit differently now in light of the recent bombshell doesn't it?

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Leon

People get their panties in a wad when there is a lack of transparency. That is understandable. I have no issue with the cleaner card. It looks great. And I don't blame PSA one bit. I have been told by one of the best graders I know, who has had personal cards conserved and cleaned, said there was literally NO way he could tell anything was done to his cards. It isn't PSA's fault if there is nothing to see.

.

+1. Hard to debate that point, plus, IMO, restoration is coming (but I do believe it should be transparent if we're talking about building up corners and restoring paper loss).

Best wishes,

Larry

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Did anyone ever answer how we know this is the same card?

The same discoloration marks on the front are still visible on both....even the cleaned up card.

Also, same centering and same print/toning dots on back of card.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Interesting debate. When I go to sell my house I'm hoping to brush over a couple of 100 flaws/issues. I won't actively deceive anyone, or make any affirmative claims that are false, but I'm going to do everything I can to make the house present well and detract attention away from its shortcomings. Might slap some paint on the side of the house that turns to hell after a few months for some odd reason. May scrub the garage door that always attracts some green mold crud. Does that make me a bad guy?

Did anyone ever answer how we know this is the same card?

this other...just poured my first cup!!!!

[Leon]

You said among other(s) after that? Have 1 more cup, I am.

Originally Posted by ullmandds

this other...just poured my first cup!!!!