This is the problem with grading...

[vintagetoppsguy]

I posted this over on the SGC boards, but I thought I would post it here as well. I know it's not pre-war, but the era of the cards makes no difference to the point of the story.

I don't know if anybody's been keeping up with this thread on the CU boards, but here it is in a nutshell. A consigner sends Probstein123 an Art Shell RC graded a PSA 8 and it appears to sell on eBay for $47. A week or so later, the SAME card is again on eBay by Probstein123, but this time the card is magically a PSA 10 and sells for $3150.02!





Another consigner sends Probstein123 a John Havlicek RC graded a PSA 7 and it appears to sell on eBay for $152.50. A week or so later, the SAME card is again on eBay by Probstein123, but this time the card is magically a PSA 8.5 and sells for $611.




Here's the thread:
http://forums.collectors.com/message...02&STARTPAGE=1

I'm not really going to address the ethical issues. Everyone already knows PSA is in bed with it's top submitters. My problem is how can the SAME CARD sell for $47 one week on eBay and $3150 the next week on eBay? This represents everything that is wrong with grading and this hobby. No way should the SAME CARD sell for 67X what it previously sold for just because of someone else's opinion. It's the SAME freaking card! Besides, don't people look at what they're buying? No way should that card have ever graded a 10.

Shame on PSA!! What a truly UNETHICAL company!!!

[Taxman]

Using this logic...my stockbroker is a crook for selling me Apple stock at 400 then it increases to 500 a week later? Same stock just different day. Congrats to the buyer for resubmitting the card.

[wazoo]

Really good thread! That card should have never been graded a 10 though. Look at the spots on the back, especially over the word "strength" on the back. Kirk does bring a really valid point though. The buyer of the cards was intelligent because they realized they could be upgraded.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by wazoo

Kirk does bring a really valid point though. The buyer of the cards was intelligent because they relaizrd they could be upgraded.

That's just it. There never was no "buyer." The cards never exchanged hands. Look at the auctions and look at the time lines.

Edited to add: Kirk, do you really think that Shell is a 10? If so, why wasn't it graded a 10 the first time then? Or did PSA have some incentive for it to be a 10 on the second submission?

[Taxman]

What if the seller was the submitter?

[Spartan]

I can't wait to see where the commentary goes on this, it looks worthy of a DATELINE NBC story......... I'm puzzled at the quick turnaround, and two sales ... still confused on those logistics, but I'll go back and re-read, or follow the rest of the posts forthcoming....... read from a distance.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by Spartan

I'm puzzled at the quick turnaround, and two sales ... still confused on those logistics, but I'll go back and re-read, or follow the rest of the posts forthcoming....... read from a distance.

First auction closed July 22. In all likelihood the buyer submitted the card in person at the National.

Edit to add Probstein's response from CU.

hi guys,
every major auction house , including memory lane, heritage , mile high , huggins and scott , etc.... opens their items for auction up for VIEWING....
during this VIEWING period both dealers and collectors review the inventory for sale and decide which items they wanna bid on...
( sometimes they bring this inventory to shows for people to review as well )
yes, these dealers and collectors look for cards/items that may bump or sets or lots that may have great break value for resale or items that may be undervalued or just items they wanna buy for their collections...

probstein123 functions like a major auction in this fashion and we have a large pool of dealers who look at items to bid upon....
probstein123 is not aware of which items they like, nor which items they bid upon....we are busy posting , shipping , and handling close to 10,000 auctions monthly.....
none of these dealers are probstein staff and they all conduct their bids apart from probstein123 knowledge....we don't micro-manage the process - just like the major auction houses....
people bid on items they like...probstein123 is managed by the guidelines set forth by ebay trust and safety and we don't bid on our own items....

if you are interested in setting up viewing of auctions with probstein123 like other dealers and collectors, please feel free to call me at 973 747 6304....

thanks
rick

[barrysloate]

Lots of cards get resubmitted, and some do get half grade bumps. Nothing unusual about that. But a full two grade bump to a perfect 10, when the card is clearly not a 10? That should cause some raised eyebrows.

[Davy_Kangaroo_Jones]

Wow that's messed up.

[cardbroker]

Shell card has no business in a 10. 3 print marks on back with a print dot in the green emblem on front. Bottom corners do not come to a point. First grade was accurate. 8.5 tops.

I am not sure if the 2nd card is the same card. Possibly a bad scan. Markings do not seem to match up but nevertheless this card is a 7.5 at best. Just from the scan you can tell 3 corners have touches. 7 was an accurate grade.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

In my opinion, the way PSA has continued to handled this debacle has significantly hurt their credibility as a company who provides a quality service.

Also consider this. In my opinion the '73 Shell looks like an 8, so the latest buyer overpaid by about $3100. But there's also another victim. The 1973 Topps Art Shell PSA 10 is now a pop 2. The other PSA 10 card has, at least theoretically, now been significantly devalued since the supply has now artificially doubled.

By the way, whether many people know this or not, many deleted CU Board threads do get saved by Google's webcache feature.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

[smotan_02]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

.

By the way, whether many people know this or not, many deleted CU Board threads do get saved by Google's webcache feature.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

Thank you for pointing this out. Can you post the other pages of the thread? I can't search it from an iPad. Thank you

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

In my opinion, the way PSA has continued to handled this debacle has significantly hurt their credibility as a company who provides a quality service.

Also consider this. In my opinion the '73 Shell looks like an 8, so the latest buyer overpaid by about $3100. But there's also another victim. The 1973 Topps Art Shell PSA 10 is now a pop 2. The other PSA 10 card has, at least theoretically, now been significantly devalued since the supply has now artificially doubled.

By the way, whether many people know this or not, many deleted CU Board threads do get saved by Google's webcache feature.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

Dan, he didn't overpay. He got exactly what he wanted -- a PSA 10 to add to his registry set. If he cared about the condition of the actual card, he could have returned it, or sent it to PSA to review. Instead, he added it happily to his registry set. We always say, buy the card, not the label, but there are folks to whom the label is just as -- or more -- important.

[BCauley]

Originally Posted by Spartan

I can't wait to see where the commentary goes on this, it looks worthy of a DATELINE NBC story......... I'm puzzled at the quick turnaround, and two sales ... still confused on those logistics, but I'll go back and re-read, or follow the rest of the posts forthcoming....... read from a distance.

[David R]

There definitely seems to be something amiss here to me, which is troubling. What is equally troubling to me, however, is the level of incivility that has crept into some of the recent threads on here. I like a good spirited debate, but there seems to be a recent increase in mean-spirited posts. :-(

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by David R

There definitely seems to be something amiss here to me, which is troubling. What is equally troubling to me, however, is the level of incivility that has crept into some of the recent threads on here. I like a good spirited debate, but there seems to be a recent increase in mean-spirited posts. :-(

+1000000

I have been wondering the same thing. I am officially calling for a one day cease-fire so all pantiesinawad thread participants can go get laid. That usually calms me down and resets my outlook immensely.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bcauley

don't you people have a life??!

[CMIZ5290]

Bcauley, you might be the biggest idiot of them all.... By the way, do you have a life??????????

[BCauley]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Bcauley, you might be the biggest idiot of them all.... By the way, do you have a life??????????

Dude, seriously? I started reading the thread and got to that post (which I think was one of the first), saw the thing about Dateline, and figured I'd actually have fun with it.

Really, if you're THAT spun up about this, you should probably take a step back, go turn on the news, and see that there are far more important things going on in the world. Either that, or just lighten up.

Now, back to reading pages 2 through however long this thing is.

[Bigdaddy]

I did not know you could shill a Shell, Sam I am.

Seriously, there are two distinct, shady actions going on here. The first is shilling. I believe most folks on here think it is wrong in any case, though a small number believe that it is OK, at least in some circumstances. Fine, we can agree to disagree, though most auction sites disallow this practice because it undermines their creditability.

The second is the significant bumping of a grade by PSA, which underscores the subjectivity (at best) or favoritism to certain submitters (at worst) of the whole grading business. While this may provide short term profits for the sellers, surely the more widespread and known this practice becomes, the less creditability that the graders will retain. If a TPG can bump the same card up two grades and increase it's 'value' (and I use the term lightly) that much, is it really different than a fraudelent autograph authenticator taking a forged Mantle 8x10 (that is worth no more than the cost of the photo, say $5) and authenticating it, thereby increasing it's value 500x? The problem here lies strictly with the TPG, not the folks resubmitting the cards. They are only playing the system as it is set up, much like all of us who take advantage of tax breaks that have been allowed by the gov't.

[howard38]

/

[frankbmd]

Shall I Shill my Shell today?
Is the question of the day.

What would somebody pay?
With the corners cropped away.

Yeah, I’d like to make a buck
But with my incredible luck

I wouldn’t get a 10
And have to submit again.

With whom should I consign?
Perhaps a friend of mine.

What chance of being caught?
I figure close to naught

Is there a jail for shillers?
Does it have bars or pillars?

What games do shillers play?
To pass the time away.

Do they shill each other?
or do they shill their mother?

And what’s a shiller’s savior?
Release for good behavior.

Shall I shill my Shell today?
It’s my will - I’ll find a way

What would somebody pay?
One or two or perhaps 3K.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Is the use of a hidden reserve fraudulent/criminal?

[BlueDevil89]

Originally Posted by BCauley

+1 for BCauley (that's pretty funny)

[SMPEP]

There are obviously lots of questions here about Probstein's practices and PSA's practices ... but beyond those ... Why on earth would anyone pay $3150.02 for a 1973 Art Shell card!?!?!?!?!?

Who cares what the grade is!

Would you rather have that card than say a PSA 1 1952 Mantle? A T206 Ty Cobb or ... fill in the blank.

I mean there are literally thousands of cards I would pay more for than a 1973Art Shell - even in PSA 10 condition.

[Taxman]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

There are obviously lots of questions here about Probstein's practices and PSA's practices ... but beyond those ... Why on earth would anyone pay $3150.02 for a 1973 Art Shell card!?!?!?!?!?

Who cares what the grade is!

Would you rather have that card than say a PSA 1 1952 Mantle? A T206 Ty Cobb or ... fill in the blank.

I mean there are literally thousands of cards I would pay more for than a 1973Art Shell - even in PSA 10 condition.

The PSA Registry is a powerful drug and competition!

[sportscardpete]

[QUOTE=SMPEP;1026658]There are obviously lots of questions here about Probstein's practices and PSA's practices ... but beyond those ... Why on earth would anyone pay $3150.02 for a 1973 Art Shell card!?!?!?!?!?

Oakland Raiders fans are crazy. Look at the stands during their next game!

[alanu]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

I mean there are literally thousands of cards I would pay more for than a 1973Art Shell - even in PSA 10 condition.

Maybe the buyer already has all of those cards

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by alanu

Maybe the buyer already has all of those cards

LOL. That is hilarious.

[sbfinley]

Grading is and will always be subjective, the list of variables is too high. Also "unethical" is not the word I would use here. Probstein says (and I believe him) that the original buyer re-submitted, got the bump, and then cosigned the cards again. Nothing wrong with that and people resubmit for bumps all the time with every major grading company. I am part of a hobby where someone will pay $3k for an Art Shell card, if I didn't expect things like this to happen I would be kidding myself.

[vintagetoppsguy]

The same "buyer" won both the Shell and Havlicek cards. Look at the bid history. Come on guys, you ignore the facts here.

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The same "buyer" won both the Shell and Havlicek cards. Look at the bid history. Come on guys, you ignore the facts here.

I doubt probsteins story...ALOT !!

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Both the Shell and the Havlicek were graded correctly the first time and blatantly overgraded the second time - in my opinion. If it only happened once I could maybe see this as another error like the Black Swamp PSA 10 Wagner. But twice by the same seller recently and a third time 14 months ago as shown below?

http://forums.collectors.com/message...67&STARTPAGE=1

What a disgrace! This warrants a public explanation by the management at PSA.

And the PSAphiles on the CU Board wonder why the majority of the people here scoffed at that those recent record prices for the PSA 10 HOF rookie cards from the 1950s.

[Touch'EmAll]

If you are not PSA set registry concerned, the smart collector would never pay the HUGE premium for a PSA 10 grade.

I have had a few 10's in my time, and I was mostly disappointed about some aspect of the card - sold them fast.

A nicely centered PSA 8 with good color/focus/gloss and solid corners is as good as it gets to the naked eye.

It just sucks that corruption has leaked to grading companies (PSA in particular) - just as corruption has leaked into most facets of life.

A dealer friend I once knew at the dawning of the graded age once told me a PSA 10 is pure La La Land.

Go get 'em y'all PSA set registry folks. Not for me.

[tiger8mush]

buy the card, not the holder, and this won't happen to you

edited to add: I do agree that grading needs to stick to more objective guidelines so that they are more consistent with grading so that a $50 card doesn't suddenly become a $3k card because the grader that day decided to bump a card two gades. But did the buyer purchase the card because he wanted the card inside, or cuz he wanted the perfect PSA 10 on the flip? I think we know the answer ...

[chaddurbin]

this is the problem with postwar collecting, 8s turning into 10s w/o doing any work. with prewar you'd at least need an exacto knife or some chemical agent to turn a VG card into EX. at least make PSA earn their money postwar collectors...until then stay in the kiddie pool.

talking about goldin and mastro, ebay consignment is also a big scam going today. anonymous consignments, safety biddings, hidden reserves, bid retractions, shillings, artificially pumping up prices, cards that were supposedly sold being relisted the next week. unregulated in the ebay clustermess and a free for all.

[SMPEP]

Guess I still don't get it.

You want to spend $3k on a 1952 Mantle. Okay. The population of the card is pretty well known. There aren't too many floating around that are ungraded (and you're not buying those any ways because of authenticity questions). So you know this is pretty much the market rate barring something very unusual happening.

But a PSA 10 1973 Art Shell? Heck I have a NM set. Never bothered to grade a single card. Are mine 8s, 9s, 10s? I have no clue but given how many were printed, how many are sitting ungraded in boxes like mine, and how few have ever been graded, it's a very safe assumption there are many more 10s out there.

So why would you spend that much money on a card that could lose half (or more?) of its value if just 3 more 10s turn up out of the tens of thousands that were printed?

Guess I should go see if my Shell is a 10. Even if it's not, I can submitted with a picture of this 10 and make them justify giving me a lower grade.

And I'll happily sell it for $2,500 if the underbidder wants a "bargain."

Cheers,
Patrick

[wazoo]

I believe we can all agree on this. Money and greed is causing some sellers and some TPG's to pollute our hobby that we know and love.

[honus94566]

I don't see any problem with what went down on ebay. Someone got the card re-graded, and someone was dumb enough to pay 3K+ for a 73 art shell.

Sure, PSA shouldn't have graded that card a 10. But still... as far as I see it, this is the buyer's problem. Gotta be smarter than that.

I don't think there is anything unethical or dishonest about probstein re-auctioning the card after it was regraded.

[biggsdaddycool]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Guess I still don't get it.

But a PSA 10 1973 Art Shell? Heck I have a NM set. Never bothered to grade a single card. Are mine 8s, 9s, 10s? I have no clue but given how many were printed, how many are sitting ungraded in boxes like mine, and how few have ever been graded, it's a very safe assumption there are many more 10s out there.

Cheers,
Patrick

this is my point, exactly. I know of many ungraded, high end vintage cards that are sitting in safe deposit boxes. Nationwide? There are tons of "undiscovered" cards that are not graded, and not included in any population report anywhere. I would be very wary about any population report as being truly accurate. With all of the cracks and resubmittals to different companies, and all the undiscovered, non-publicized vintage out there?? Be wary.

[Deertick]

Not for nothing, but I'd give that Bauer a 9 all day long.....

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by RobertGT

Why is a SGC employee buying/selling/cracking graded cards and resubmitting with PSA?

Isn't this a conflict of interest?

Also, I agree there is no way in hell that card is a 10. No way that card comes back a 10 if submitted by you or I.

Something is rotten in Denmark.

Actually it would be a conflict of interest if he submitted them to SGC.

[RobertGT]

Originally Posted by t206hound

Actually it would be a conflict of interest if he submitted them to SGC.

OK, everything is just dandy here. Please continue.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by RobertGT

- OK so it's not a conflict for someone selling the service of "card carding" to turn around and buy/sell/crack/resubmit graded cards. I hear a lot of these types of arguments coming out of Wall Street these days.

And to summarize the current state of affairs:

- I submit a card to PSA with minor corner wear and numerous print defects, I get a PSA 7.

- SGC employee submits a card to PSA with minor corner wear and numerous print defects, he gets a PSA 10.

- Card bumps not 1 but 2 full grades and appears to be the weakest PSA 10 in graded card history, but it's only a "mistake."

- $3,000 profit from said bump of graded card, which was previously a $47 card until it came it came into the possession of an employee of grading card company SGC, and then turned over to competing grading card company PSA.

OK, everything is just dandy here. Please continue.

So your conspiracy theory is that PSA is motivated to give an improper grade to an SGC employee? Why?

[lharri3600]

the thread is dead

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I posted this over on the SGC boards, but I thought I would post it here as well. I know it's not pre-war, but the era of the cards makes no difference to the point of the story.

I don't know if anybody's been keeping up with this thread on the CU boards, but here it is in a nutshell. A consigner sends Probstein123 an Art Shell RC graded a PSA 8 and it appears to sell on eBay for $47. A week or so later, the SAME card is again on eBay by Probstein123, but this time the card is magically a PSA 10 and sells for $3150.02!





Another consigner sends Probstein123 a John Havlicek RC graded a PSA 7 and it appears to sell on eBay for $152.50. A week or so later, the SAME card is again on eBay by Probstein123, but this time the card is magically a PSA 8.5 and sells for $611.




Here's the thread:
http://forums.collectors.com/message...02&STARTPAGE=1

I'm not really going to address the ethical issues. Everyone already knows PSA is in bed with it's top submitters. My problem is how can the SAME CARD sell for $47 one week on eBay and $3150 the next week on eBay? This represents everything that is wrong with grading and this hobby. No way should the SAME CARD sell for 67X what it previously sold for just because of someone else's opinion. It's the SAME freaking card! Besides, don't people look at what they're buying? No way should that card have ever graded a 10.

Shame on PSA!! What a truly UNETHICAL company!!!

[lharri3600]

bump the thread is dead

[Leon]

Originally Posted by lharri3600

bump the thread is dead

You bumped it 3 times in 4 minutes. More strategic bumps lead to better results, generally speaking. Bump it all you want....not a big deal to me. I think the folks that collect 10's (Gem Mint) get exactly what they want. No harm done to me. Live and let live.....(and I just got the "Live and Let Die" theme in my head.....hopefully it will go away or I will be hearing it all day )

[Peter_Spaeth]

Leon this will help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK2hKzZss5Y

[bobbyw8469]

No to get them to buy it back/compensate me.

Peter, I did that with a 1953 Bowman Color Duke Snider PSA 7 that had a huge water stain on it. Half the card was stained. I probably coulda got it out, but I shouldn't have had to. I bought a PSA 7 with a huge stain on it. They bought it back and regraded it a PSA 5.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Leon this will help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK2hKzZss5Y

Three minutes and eleven seconds well spent. Thanks Peter!!