Possible new discovery - t210 Series 5 PINK border

[shammus]

Got a large group of t210s in the mail today. As I was happily going through them, I found this card of Roth with entirely pink borders. Just thought I'd throw this up on the board to see if anyone had seen anything like this before and if people thought it was a new printing variation that we hadn't seen yet or if the card might be bleached either chemically or by the sun.

I'm leaning more towards a printing variation rather than being bleached for a few reasons -

1. The caption is a bright blue color. This indicates to me that color passes might have been missing during this cards initial print run. Captions on t210s, even orange variations, are normally black. Bleaching a card wouldn't turn it's font blue I wouldn't think.

2. The photo itself doesn't appear to be any different in tone and clarity from the rest of the cards I have. I threw a few other cards in the scan so you could all get an idea.

3. The back is perfectly normal. As with t210 orange borders, there's no differences in color or otherwise on the card's reverse.

4. This is a set already known for it's printing gaffes. Orange borders, yellow borders, oversized borders, etc.... So I suppose having a different shade of border color show up isn't too much out of the question. I threw a couple other "misprints" in the scan as well - one of my orange borders and then the Reis card which also arrived today. NOtice the oversized right border but it's actually missing it's left border. Kind of neat.

Any thoughts?

pink.jpg

[FrankWakefield]

I had about two-thirds of a T210 that looked like that. the image part looked odd, too. It felt a bit rough, instead of smooth like most T210s feel.

I never could decide if it was made that way or if something happened to it. I thought the latter, since it had a big vertical tear along it, where part of it was missing.

Does that pink one feel less smooth than the others?

[shammus]

It's smooth but not "slick" like other t210s. Also, the red borders and even my orange borders are glossy which I guess is why they're slick. This pink card isn't glossy and isn't slick but it doesn't have a rough surface on the front either if that makes any sense....

[FrankWakefield]

I think something 'happened' to the card, I don't think it was in the cigarette pack like that.

I think that whatever affected the surface also affected the ink, leaching out some red, leaching the black down to blue.

I'm not recalling what the back of my piece of one was like. I wonder if someone soaked it with vinegar or something, to remove it from a scrapbook, maybe. I do know it was the first T210 I ever soaked, I had no idea if T210s would soak or not, and didn't want to find out on an entire T210... this was in the days before internet, collectors interacted face to face or via the mail.

[barrysloate]

The blue ink sounds more interesting to me than the pink border. It doesn't look blue in your scan, however. While red can either fade to pink, or simply be missing a color pass, how does black print turn blue?

[DixieBaseball]

Looks like it is faded by the sun....

I am guessing a printing error on tha one... almost like a film on it which drowns the red into pinkish hue.

[shammus]

At first glance, I'm leaning towards the way Jeremy and Barry are thinking. I'm thinking it's a printing error. If it was bleached, the caption would be a greyish color since the black font would have been lightened as well. This is a blue color though and like Barry was saying, I don't know how you alter this card so that the captions turn to blue.

Also, since obviously there is a great deal of color altering going on, one way or another, between the caption and the borders, wouldn't it stand to reason that the photo itself would appear different if the card was bleached?

One thing I will point out is that this card doesn't really have the "glossy shean" to it that t210s and so many other colors have. Not that this would be the first 100 year old card to lose it's luster, but it is something I thought I'd point out.

[shammus]

Admittedly, the blue font shows up more in person. I tried to blow the bottom of that card up a bit though....

font.jpg

[caramelcard]

Cool Brian,

I love the misaligned Reis card next to it as well with one white border!

Rob

[FrankWakefield]

The 'piece' of a card I had was one I'd gotten years before there was much card doctoring. Besides, who'd 'doctor' on a piece of a common T210? My point is that if something happened to the card AFTER printing, as I think, it would have been something that happened 30+ years ago, nothing recent.

[barrysloate]

Brian- The enlarged bottom border looks to have swirls of white in it. Is it possible the border was recolored? It's harder for me to view a scan than for you to look at it in hand.

[caramelcard]

I agree with Frank. What reason would anyone have to bleach this card?

If I guessed I would say that this card was at the top of a stack of t210s that were exposed to sunlight or that it was accidently soaked in something.

[cfc1909]

Now that I see another, I am open to other thoughts of what is up with the card. I thought it was either bleached or left in the sun too long. I doubt is is a new discovery of pink border.
Anyway here is mine-series 2--Laughlin

T210colors.jpg

[caramelcard]

Another possibility.

I know a collector that wraps his old tobacco cards in paper towels and has for many years. There are cards in his groups that look just like that, faded colors with a pasty look but they're obviously different borders.

Wow Jim, that example is really faded!

[FrankWakefield]

John,

Is your 'pink' one a bit rough on the surface, too?

[cfc1909]

Rob

I agree with your thoughts on it possibly being in the sun

[sb1]

Many T210's are found like this, either faulty gloss that was applied and/or a resulting storage chemical reaction, probably caused by humidity. Not bleached. I have had quite a few out of the 1000's I have handled.

On a side note i did see a blazing canary yellow one today owned by a good friend of mine. Without a doubt the brightest yellow I have seen.

Scott

[cfc1909]

the one I have is smooth and has a touch of the red border at the very top left corner-also seems that the shinny surface that is on the other cards is not there-gone

[shammus]

Hey Jim,

Thanks for posting yours. If my card had actually been bleached or sitting in the sun too long, I think it would look like yours - completely faded with barely ledgible caption. The photo on mine is still pretty dark though and the caption, while blue, is still ledgible.

Barry, I think what you're seeing at the bottom is where the card darkens back to red a little bit. Not really swirls. My orange borders actually do the same thing where they darken back up at the tips and edges of the card.

Scott's point about faulty gloss has some credibility though. The pink border that I have is missing any gloss it might have had. So what we can hypothesize is that the card faded while in storage over time and one day, came out pink from whatever box, binder, closet, etc... it was in because during the original print run, the gloss coating on the card was either faulty or wasn't applied properly?

Makes sense, this is the first time I'm seeing these cards in a pinkish sort of hue though. Scott, you say you've seen several of these?

[cfc1909]

Brian

I think after looking at both and listening to Scott it is a matter of the same thing happening to both cards but to a different degree. There is some reaction with the red border and the surface that makes this happen. I don't think either card has been bleached now that Scott has said he has seen many T210s like this.

This was probably caused in storage some how-we know they have been stored somewhere for 100 years... really kool we have 2 to compare and hopefully we will see more in this thread.

[FrankWakefield]

I don't think it would have been bleach.... that was probably seldom or never used back then...

I wonder if moth balls or something like that would have affected them.

I still think this is something that happened to the cards after they were in the hands of the public.

[shammus]

Jim, yep, I agree. I was only saying with regards to mine, that if it was bleached, the "fading" on the card would be much more uniform and not just confined to the borders.

Scott's explaination also jives with the back of the card being perfectly normal - no gloss is applied on the reverse.

Although on my card, how might one explain that blue font? The faulty gloss/chemicals couldn't change the color of the type could it?

Soooo, does all this mean that there's now officially a t210 pink border variation? Both the orange borders and the pink borders occured as a result of a printing mishap....

[Old Mill Man]

The ones I had were Waxed and looked like this so it could be if they are rough someone tried to get the wax off the card as mine you could take your finger nail and scrape it off and it still looked hazy and changed not only the border but the photo as well.More to add to my article.

[ethicsprof]

Brian,
I really can't add to the various speculations offered but have to say
congratulations on a most interesting acquisition.

best,

barry

[ScottFandango]

the bottom edge looks more Red than the rest of the card.....something happened to that card, i dont think its a "variation"

[Old Mill Man]

I agree and I still say the cards were waxed and someone removed the wax.I had some like this and it is not a printing mishap as some did some things to their cards back then that we would never do as they collected not for the value but just to collect the cards.Check some of the T-210 backs and in pencil you will see the players position ,heck I had some that hasd the position on the front in black marker.

[JMANOS]

Actually purchased from Brian. I think the print runs would run out of ink and change from red to pink to my yellow-ish color before the run was stopped or complete. Brian may have a scan of the card I do not.

[tedzan]

That PINK bordered OLD MILL is simply an incomplete printing error.

The final RED ink pass was not applied to it. A lighter colored RED (pink) was applied early in the multi-color
process (upon Yellow to create Orange). And, the final color was a deep Red ink for the cards that were de-
signed to be Red.

Here is a sample of some of my incomplete printing errors that are PINK......






TED Z

[shammus]

I like Scott's theory about faulty gloss causing the card to lighten over time.

I also think Ralph's explaination about wax being put on cards and then being removed later to cause the card to lighten makes sense. This theory also jives with the fact that there's so few of these cards around. It seems that if the gloss used on the cards was faulty - we'd be seeing a lot more of these. Out of the mere two I've seen now, one is a series 5, the other is a series 2. So it could be just one collector who had a few cards he was trying to protect.

However, this sort of an issue isn't something I see on cards from other sets. You'd have to assume that the collector who used the wax had more than just simply t210s right?

Another thing, if wax was indeed placed on the cards and left for years, it doesn't seem to me that you could just remove it by smoothly peeling it off. Wouldn't it dry and harden eventually like paste? This would cause it's removal to create a residue on the card or take little pieces of the paper with it

Also, still am pondering how any sort of faulty gloss being used or wax would result in the captions turning blue. I can totally see the caption being lightened up by either occurance but that would just make it a light greyish color if anything. Wouldn't turn it into a random color like blue. That's just really weird and is one of the ways that Jim's card differs from mine a bit.

Good discussion so far

[tedzan]

Here are some more "wannabe" RED cards that are either PINK, ORANGE, or partially PINK. These T206's
and the T210's were both printed by American Lithographic using the same multi-color process. When a
printer missed the final (RED) inking, the result is either a Pink colored card or an Orange colored one.

I will repeat, that your PINK T210 and Jim's PINK T210 are simply the result of an incomplete printing run.
These PINK cards are not bleached....sun faded....or otherwise. The lack of a gloss on them reinforces
what I am trying to tell you. The gloss was applied in the final step in the production of these OLD MILL
cards. You say that your PINK card has a "flat" appearance....and, that is consistent with my argument
that it is simply an incomplete card.

I do not have a color error T210, but these T206's illustrate my contention here......as it also applies to
T210's (and, for that matter all BB card issues both then and now).







TED Z

[shammus]

Gotta say Ted, I definitely prefer your argument to the others

[FrankWakefield]

I'm not buying that....

The look and feel of T206s is quite different from T210s. I still think this is something that happened to the card after printing and distribution.

[shammus]

Jim brought up something earlier that's actually a good point. The tips of my pink bordered card fade into red a little bit. I should point out though that a couple of my orange borders do this too. The Yellow-bordered Slaven was the same way as well. But a lot of these variations have tips that are more like the dark red that you're used to seeing on t210s.

[Old Mill Man]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

I'm not buying that....

The look and feel of T206s is quite different from T210s. I still think this is something that happened to the card after printing and distribution.

Ditto.Brian the wax after being on the card for years would be easily removed,I don't buy the thory that it is a printing error it is something that was done after the cards exited the packs.Just my two cents.

[shammus]

I understand, and like I was saying, yours is a good theory and may be the best one. As the guy who owns the pink card at the start of this thread, I was rooting for it to be a printing error is all I was saying.

[cfc1909]

nice display Ted-didn't go through the complete process during printing and that fits with what Scott is saying-faulty gloss applied or not applied.

just a misfit but not a new discovery...

[cfc1909]

Hey B,

I was looking through my 210s tonight and came across another 210 with some border issues-just to a lesser degree. pink?

T210colorsA.jpg

first card you can barely read the caption -second is for comparison and the third has the same issues as the first but to a lesser degree.

I can't get enough of these 210s-image size, border colors and the gloss-very fun to compare all these cards-at the present time I am going through about 100 of these and will let you know if I find anything else interesting. Starting to research the players also...

note-you can see parts of the red border showing through on the third card

[FrankWakefield]

On the red bordered cards the image is fine...

On the orange bordered cards the image is fine...

On those rare yellow border cards the image is fine...

On the so-called pink border cards the image is obviously obscured a bit. On these cards it isn't that something happened in the printing of the border, something has happened to the entire card front. I still don't buy into this pink border idea, I think something has happened to the surface of the card...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

On the red bordered cards the image is fine...

On the orange bordered cards the image is fine...

On those rare yellow border cards the image is fine...

On the so-called pink border cards the image is obviously obscured a bit. On these cards it isn't that something happened in the printing of the border, something has happened to the entire card front. I still don't buy into this pink border idea, I think something has happened to the surface of the card...

I agree with Frank's opinion here. I hope the "pink" isn't something put onto the front of the card after mfg but that is always what it looked like to me. Not to detract too much but does anyone have any of the orange border T210's like the one in the middle here? The other 2 oranges shown here were just traded away to another board member in a whirlwind trade deal. (always the best).....

[cfc1909]

the question is the front of the card and that there are at least several of these 210s that this has happened to. That was my reason for posting another- to let Brian know I had at least one more.

nice cards Leon.

[shammus]

Thanks Jim, I appreciate that. The Bussey is just about identical to how mine looks. Hmmm, while I do wish they were a neat variation like the oranges, the whitish swirls on the surface of the Bussey and my own card lead me to lean toward believing they were tampered with after the printing process had been complete. Still neat though

[Potomac Yank]

Brian is it true?

Regardless of how they came to be.
Now that you found a Pink T210 borders ... will you be collecting them along with the T210 Orange, and Yellow borders?

I have one, but it's not for sale.

[Old Mill Man]

Originally Posted by shammus

Thanks Jim, I appreciate that. The Bussey is just about identical to how mine looks. Hmmm, while I do wish they were a neat variation like the oranges, the whitish swirls on the surface of the Bussey and my own card lead me to lean toward believing they were tampered with after the printing process had been complete. Still neat though

Your right Tampered with Wax,I'm telling ya....

[shammus]

Hey Joe, nice to hear from you!

No way, I'm not that predictable with my collecting habits am I??

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go make a BST request that I've made 900 times already, heh!

[Potomac Yank]

Not only that, but they feel that the Orange, and Yellow bordered t210's are over rated.

Why wont Brian go Pink???

[Potomac Yank]

If anything, your thread has brought out some real nice shots of off colored borders. _ _ _ Keep 'em coming.

[shammus]

Joe,

If you like these, just wait until I unveil my newest t210 discovery...a t210 Series 8 card with GREEN borders...it'll be AWESOME and you guys will love it!!

[FrankWakefield]

sounds like one of those Red Sun backed Old Mills...

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by shammus

Joe,

If you like these, just wait until I unveil my newest t210 discovery...a t210 Series 8 card with GREEN borders...it'll be AWESOME and you guys will love it!!

*

Brian, I don't know how to break this to you.

It's called an altered T211 _ _ _ a Dr Koos special.