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  #1  
Old 08-02-2019, 01:47 PM
Fuddjcal Fuddjcal is offline
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Default SPORTS CARD RADIO (anonymus PSA "insider")

http://www.sportscardradio.com/anony...-trimmer-list/

Nice article and complete rundown of events as they unfolded and why! Amazing this scam has been allowed to go on for so long.

AND HERE's a nice quote for all you nay sayers

"Still today, I would estimate trimmers account for the majority of cards submitted to TPG’s", maybe 60%

Why don't you all just let that sink in for a moment.

My estimate of 1 billion in fraud is probably a fallacy...It easily exceeds 1 billion, IMHO.

Last edited by Fuddjcal; 08-02-2019 at 01:49 PM.
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  #2  
Old 08-02-2019, 03:18 PM
chalupacollects chalupacollects is offline
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Damn, just wish it wasn't an anonymous source... this is getting uglier by the minute...
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  #3  
Old 08-02-2019, 03:35 PM
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Undoubtedly, only a tiny percentage of the true number of doctored cards residing in slabs has been exposed to the light. There's a lotta cardboard beneath the waterline...

iceberg.jpg
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  #4  
Old 08-02-2019, 03:56 PM
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Brent, is that you?

If this was even 5% true, a new team from the FBI might need to be assigned.
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  #5  
Old 08-02-2019, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuddjcal View Post
http://www.sportscardradio.com/anony...-trimmer-list/

Nice article and complete rundown of events as they unfolded and why! Amazing this scam has been allowed to go on for so long.

AND HERE's a nice quote for all you nay sayers

"Still today, I would estimate trimmers account for the majority of cards submitted to TPG’s", maybe 60%

Why don't you all just let that sink in for a moment.

My estimate of 1 billion in fraud is probably a fallacy...It easily exceeds 1 billion, IMHO.
There are some very disturbing allegations in that article to say the least. I'm not an attorney, but I'm very certain that a Non Disclosure Agreement can not be used to conceal illegal activities.
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  #6  
Old 08-02-2019, 04:14 PM
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The credibility of this person probably is going to rise or fall on the specific allegation about the internal investigation of a grader by PSA.
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  #7  
Old 08-02-2019, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuddjcal View Post
http://www.sportscardradio.com/anony...-trimmer-list/

Nice article and complete rundown of events as they unfolded and why! Amazing this scam has been allowed to go on for so long.

AND HERE's a nice quote for all you nay sayers

"Still today, I would estimate trimmers account for the majority of cards submitted to TPG’s", maybe 60%

Why don't you all just let that sink in for a moment.

My estimate of 1 billion in fraud is probably a fallacy...It easily exceeds 1 billion, IMHO.
That does seem a little high but not too outrageous if it includes all alterations.
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  #8  
Old 08-02-2019, 04:50 PM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
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Bad......I’ve been saying this for years...there are thousands of altered cards in PSA holders with number grades.

With PSA failing to take any responsibility in this mess in grading altered cards what is the future for them ? I have no trust in their cards? .

The only way I see them changing their tune is if their bottom line is negatively affected...

I go back to the Wagner they never accepted they graded the card wrong....as altered....the industry still thrived.....how much longer can this be blown off?

When will it crash? And I’m not even bringing up the alleged manipulation of those numbers in 2014 by certain AH ....that in itself is total bogus.

The day I’m out is he day this industry accepts alterations.....i have a bad feeling in my gut this is were we maybe headed.....
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  #9  
Old 08-03-2019, 02:34 AM
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The day I’m out is he day this industry accepts alterations.....i have a bad feeling in my gut this is were we maybe headed.....
Too big to fail. (And I'd say were already there.)



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  #10  
Old 08-04-2019, 07:44 AM
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WhenItWasAHobby WhenItWasAHobby is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post
Bad......I’ve been saying this for years...there are thousands of altered cards in PSA holders with number grades.

With PSA failing to take any responsibility in this mess in grading altered cards what is the future for them ? I have no trust in their cards? .

The only way I see them changing their tune is if their bottom line is negatively affected...

I go back to the Wagner they never accepted they graded the card wrong....as altered....the industry still thrived.....how much longer can this be blown off?

When will it crash? And I’m not even bringing up the alleged manipulation of those numbers in 2014 by certain AH ....that in itself is total bogus.

The day I’m out is he day this industry accepts alterations.....i have a bad feeling in my gut this is were we maybe headed.....

I'm out already and have been for quite a while.

PSA will never redress the damages done unless a court orders them to do so. If the court-ordered redress is comprehensive, it will kill PSA either by financial liability or by industry reputation.

My best guess is that PSA will weasel their way out of comprehensive legal liability with a lot of bad press and card grading will go the way of Professional Wrestling. Some consumers will buy the cards out of blissful ignorance, while the more informed will make some twisted rationalization of indifference - basically because they can't help themselves.
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  #11  
Old 08-04-2019, 07:51 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
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Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby View Post
I'm out already and have been for quite a while.

PSA will never redress the damages done unless a court orders them to do so. If the court-ordered redress is comprehensive, it will kill PSA either by financial liability or by industry reputation.

My best guess is that PSA will weasel their way out of comprehensive legal liability with a lot of bad press and card grading will go the way of Professional Wrestling. Some consumers will buy the cards out of blissful ignorance, while the more informed will make some twisted rationalization of indifference - basically because they can't help themselves.
PSA cards will continue to sell because I don't think grading and authenticating are the most important things to their customers. What is most important to collectors is the liquidity the PSA label provides. Even if a card is trimmed or misgraded, if you buy it in a 5 holder you can sell it as a 5 every time. That label is the closest thing to a Good Housekeeping seal of approval, and we all know that a good story trumps facts.
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  #12  
Old 08-04-2019, 08:37 AM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
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PSA cards will continue to sell because I don't think grading and authenticating are the most important things to their customers. What is most important to collectors is the liquidity the PSA label provides. Even if a card is trimmed or misgraded, if you buy it in a 5 holder you can sell it as a 5 every time. That label is the closest thing to a Good Housekeeping seal of approval, and we all know that a good story trumps facts.
Isn’t that sad Barry ....why is this still true ?? We know their slab label is not accurate .....
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  #13  
Old 08-04-2019, 04:50 PM
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HRBAKER HRBAKER is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
PSA cards will continue to sell because I don't think grading and authenticating are the most important things to their customers. What is most important to collectors is the liquidity the PSA label provides. Even if a card is trimmed or misgraded, if you buy it in a 5 holder you can sell it as a 5 every time. That label is the closest thing to a Good Housekeeping seal of approval, and we all know that a good story trumps facts.
I think that Barry is right here. I truly believe that many many people are more focused on the fact that PSA has created "the coin of the realm" as it relates to selling/trading in the today's marketplace. They are a lot less focused on accuracy and legitimacy.
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  #14  
Old 08-04-2019, 08:45 AM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby View Post
I'm out already and have been for quite a while.

PSA will never redress the damages done unless a court orders them to do so. If the court-ordered redress is comprehensive, it will kill PSA either by financial liability or by industry reputation.

My best guess is that PSA will weasel their way out of comprehensive legal liability with a lot of bad press and card grading will go the way of Professional Wrestling. Some consumers will buy the cards out of blissful ignorance, while the more informed will make some twisted rationalization of indifference - basically because they can't help themselves.

Agree 100% I’m glad I’ve sold almost all ......I’m over collecting ....it’s not fun anymore to me.

Industry Leader PSA built on OPINIONS Since Day One......I’m not a lawyer....but to me this is what makes them 100% Teflon UNTOUCHABLE to any Legal Liabilities EVER PERIOD. How Can Any Company Be Held Responsible for Anything When they’re JUST RENDERING A OPINION..... PERFECT.....they do have brilliance in protecting their Brand.

Their liquidity has Distorted Rational Peoples Minds...I give PSA Credit for Being a Masterful Marketing Machine that has made millions based upon A Wonderful Story. Totally give them credit for it.

Until their bottom line is negatively affected nothing will change at PSA

Last edited by Johnny630; 08-04-2019 at 09:05 AM.
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  #15  
Old 08-04-2019, 09:24 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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Agree 100% I’m glad I’ve sold almost all ......I’m over collecting ....it’s not fun anymore to me.

Industry Leader PSA built on OPINIONS Since Day One......I’m not a lawyer....but to me this is what makes them 100% Teflon UNTOUCHABLE to any Legal Liabilities EVER PERIOD. How Can Any Company Be Held Responsible for Anything When they’re JUST RENDERING A OPINION..... PERFECT.....they do have brilliance in protecting their Brand.

Their liquidity has Distorted Rational Peoples Minds...I give PSA Credit for Being a Masterful Marketing Machine that has made millions based upon A Wonderful Story. Totally give them credit for it.

Until their bottom line is negatively affected nothing will change at PSA
Also no lawyer here, but opinions seem to be a lot more protection on subjective matters. Objective matters should be based on fact. Trimming, recoloring, rebuilding aren't subjective, either they happened or they didn't and aren't really up for a debate or an opinion.
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  #16  
Old 08-04-2019, 09:16 AM
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Hard to say if and when a tipping point will come. All I can say is I've tipped personally. At the National yesterday anytime I passed a table with a bunch of graded cards I just kept walking.

At this point I trust raw I can hold in my own hands 100x more than graded. The slab and grade literally mean zero to me anymore and if anything make me think--rational or not--the card's been doctored or graded preferentially, like a 4 for this guy.

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  #17  
Old 08-06-2019, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by jason.1969 View Post
Hard to say if and when a tipping point will come. All I can say is I've tipped personally. At the National yesterday anytime I passed a table with a bunch of graded cards I just kept walking.

At this point I trust raw I can hold in my own hands 100x more than graded. The slab and grade literally mean zero to me anymore and if anything make me think--rational or not--the card's been doctored or graded preferentially, like a 4 for this guy.

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That card was previously in a SGC 50 holder, and crossed to PSA 4.
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  #18  
Old 08-06-2019, 06:56 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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There was a time when I had lots of T206 PSA 4's that looked like that. Basically I got 4's on anything that was crease-free and without any major damage.

What bugs me about PSA's standards changing is it seems to have affected EVERYONE'S standards. I see some threads discussing condition and shake my head. I'm not even that old, but cards that would've been called EX are being called VG etc. Obviously, with the position I'm in, I've had to adjust to the trends or I'd have a lot of pissed off buyers, but I'm sure this grade deflation has been a contributing factor to the scandal, even if only a small one.
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Last edited by Aquarian Sports Cards; 08-06-2019 at 06:56 AM.
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  #19  
Old 08-06-2019, 07:29 AM
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The registry guys have so much money tied up in PSA cards that I believe there will be a shift to an acceptance of altered cards. Especially if the number of altered cards reported is true. Sure, some will leave but it’s never really been about the cards for a lot of them IMO, it’s the number and the competition. PSA knows this and that’s why they’re seemingly paying no attention to this scandal.
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Old 08-06-2019, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slidekellyslide View Post
The registry guys have so much money tied up in PSA cards that I believe there will be a shift to an acceptance of altered cards. Especially if the number of altered cards reported is true. Sure, some will leave but it’s never really been about the cards for a lot of them IMO, it’s the number and the competition. PSA knows this and that’s why they’re seemingly paying no attention to this scandal.
Exactly where I think this is headed.
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  #21  
Old 08-06-2019, 09:37 AM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
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Originally Posted by slidekellyslide View Post
The registry guys have so much money tied up in PSA cards that I believe there will be a shift to an acceptance of altered cards. Especially if the number of altered cards reported is true. Sure, some will leave but it’s never really been about the cards for a lot of them IMO, it’s the number and the competition. PSA knows this and that’s why they’re seemingly paying no attention to this scandal.
100% spot on!! I’ve said this from day one ....Registry And to a Lesser extent Pop report Fuel Newport Beaches arrogance and Blow Off nothing to see here mantra.....Registry Has Been And Sadly Will Continue to their Number 1 Money making machine. I’d say it’s been the biggest money maker in the industry.

It’s very sad....If altered cards become acceptable this industry is toast

Last edited by Johnny630; 08-06-2019 at 09:38 AM.
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  #22  
Old 08-06-2019, 11:53 AM
benjulmag benjulmag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slidekellyslide View Post
The registry guys have so much money tied up in PSA cards that I believe there will be a shift to an acceptance of altered cards. Especially if the number of altered cards reported is true. Sure, some will leave but it’s never really been about the cards for a lot of them IMO, it’s the number and the competition. PSA knows this and that’s why they’re seemingly paying no attention to this scandal.
Not sure I agree with this IF (I) it becomes generally accepted that a majority of high grade pre war cards are altered and (2) the hobby presents another alternative of grading cards whereby it is believed the cards graded by this other method are not altered.

If a new TPG comes into being using technology to detect alterations and becomes the accepted way of grading, then cards graded under the old method will lose value, as well as be regarded as tainted. The registry is to satisfy a person's need to brag. I question how much bragging can be done if that altered 8 is matched up against an unaltered 8, as measured by the different grading slabs the two cards are in.

Let's go back to that cocktail party where a person is showing off his high grade cards to his society friends. In the midst of the presentation some guest in a high pitched voice asks the host why he doesn't have them re slabbed in that new slab the guest saw at last week's cocktail party, which slab was accompanied by that Wall Street Journal article which states this new grading method has a 99% success rate of detecting alterations for 8's and higher, versus the reputed 22% success rate under the old grading methods. Where is that fly on the wall when you need it?

It all comes down to bragging, which IMO is a function of how much awareness people have of the alteration problem and the grading alternatives to detect them.
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  #23  
Old 08-06-2019, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slidekellyslide View Post
The registry guys have so much money tied up in PSA cards that I believe there will be a shift to an acceptance of altered cards. Especially if the number of altered cards reported is true. Sure, some will leave but it’s never really been about the cards for a lot of them IMO, it’s the number and the competition. PSA knows this and that’s why they’re seemingly paying no attention to this scandal.
I believe if there is technology and methodology to identify unaltered cards and those that are altered, then this won't be true.

Side by side, the unaltered version will always be more prized and higher valued, and, in comparison, the altered cards will be considered lesser.

There may be more acceptance and conscious collecting of altered cards because they are so commonplace, but the unaltered cards will become the prized cards, and the altered cards will be considered second tier.

And there will be a taint and questioning of those "high end" collections and collectors who don't have their cards examined by the new technology.

The first time some rich guy presents an unaltered set, and such a set is auctioned off by REA or Heritage or whomever, that will set the new standard. All that all PSA stuff will be questioned and considered lesser.

Futher, many PSA registry people may be collecting the numbers, but once it's shown and generally considered by the hobby that these numbers are at the least unreliable, and at the most false, I think even that number collecting $$ money will change and, at least, soften. There's nothing to brag about if the general hobby scoffs at the numbers.

I think that PSA's current, and usual, approach of doing nothing and hoping it just blows over, will doom them. Because the cows have now left the barn.

Duly note that, even on the PSA forum, many posters are saying they are not buying graded cards, will never buy from PWCC, and or at least delaying buying graded cards until they see how things work out-- and this is from PSA's board.

Last edited by drcy; 08-06-2019 at 12:38 PM.
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  #24  
Old 08-06-2019, 05:27 PM
bosoxphan bosoxphan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slidekellyslide View Post
The registry guys have so much money tied up in PSA cards that I believe there will be a shift to an acceptance of altered cards. Especially if the number of altered cards reported is true. Sure, some will leave but it’s never really been about the cards for a lot of them IMO, it’s the number and the competition. PSA knows this and that’s why they’re seemingly paying no attention to this scandal.
Think you’re right in the long run but it’s gotta be disclosed and the price reflects that. Comic books alterations/conservation are accepted but the book has a different color flip and the alterations are listed. And the book sells for a fraction of the price.
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  #25  
Old 08-06-2019, 07:35 AM
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This story is just unbelievable !!! This hole just keeps getting deeper and deeper !!!
My 2 cents is this will create a problem for any graded high end, anyone will always wonder about it.
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  #26  
Old 08-04-2019, 02:12 PM
silvor silvor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuddjcal View Post
[url]

"Still today, I would estimate trimmers account for the majority of cards submitted to TPG’s", maybe 60%
60% ??

I hope not...but I fear that could be correct.
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  #27  
Old 08-04-2019, 02:22 PM
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60% ??

I hope not...but I fear that could be correct.
I would be shocked if that high, as there are millions of cards. We are talking Pre war too, arent we?
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Old 08-04-2019, 02:23 PM
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I would believe 60% for altered cards.

It's possible he meant altered but said trimmed.
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  #29  
Old 08-04-2019, 03:44 PM
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I've been wondering what would happen to PSA graded cards. But someone probably said it best. They'll continue to sell well. You buy a PSA 5, you go to sell a PSA 5, the next buyer will think it's a PSA 5. That will never change.

I don't own a single graded card, but I'd been thinking about getting into graded. Simply for the fact that whomever tries to sell after I'm gone will have a better chance to sell if it's graded. But every time I go to pull the trigger on a graded card to get started, I'm like could be trimmed. Then I back off.

I have all raw cards, and I will continue to have all raw cards. It sucks for whomever will be trying to move them after I'm gone.
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Last edited by wdwfan; 08-04-2019 at 03:45 PM.
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Old 08-05-2019, 04:10 PM
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60% ??

I hope not...but I fear that could be correct.
Not a chance in the world that number is accurate. No way. Not even close. Waaaay too high.

Last edited by Tabe; 08-05-2019 at 04:10 PM.
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  #31  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:32 PM
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jason.1969 jason.1969 is offline
Jason A. Schwartz
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Chicago suburbs
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Folks can accuse me of thinking the sky is falling, but here's where I'm at.

1. I believe that PSA's numerical grades are BS and assigned preferentially to big customers.

2. Seeing a PSA numerical grade gives me zero confidence a card has not been altered.

3. Seeing a PSA/DNA authentication of an autograph gives me know confidence the autograph is authentic.

I think it would take new management and a lot of transparency to ever get me back on board.

Jason Schwartz
Western Springs, IL

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Jason

Collecting interests and want lists at https://jasoncards.wordpress.com/201...nd-want-lists/
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  #32  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:27 AM
Fuddjcal Fuddjcal is offline
Chuck Tapia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason.1969 View Post
Folks can accuse me of thinking the sky is falling, but here's where I'm at.

1. I believe that PSA's numerical grades are BS and assigned preferentially to big customers.

2. Seeing a PSA numerical grade gives me zero confidence a card has not been altered.

3. Seeing a PSA/DNA authentication of an autograph gives me know confidence the autograph is authentic.

I think it would take new management and a lot of transparency to ever get me back on board.

Jason Schwartz
Western Springs, IL

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Me three.
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