T222 Fatima - unloved set?

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Posted By: bcornell

I'm curious whether there are others on this board who collect T222's and what your impressions are of this set. I'm a huge fan of this issue and am slowly working my way to completion.

My own experience is that T222's are both hard to find and not much in demand. T200's (issued under the same Fatima brand one year previously, in 1913) are almost always found up for auction on eBay and elsewhere and seem to have grown in popularity in the past few years. T222's, in contrast, are almost never seen on eBay (there have been none since October 2001) and haven't shown up in the comments on this board as yet. Lew Lipset auctioned a complete set of 52 in mixed condition last fall that realized about $5200; another group of 8 came in at $643. This seems pretty tepid.

T222's unpopularity has me somewhat stumped and I wonder if I'm missing something. This set doesn't follow the pattern of other less popular "T" sets: it's not unattractive, like T207; it's not too easy [sic], like T201; it's not impossible, like T208. My guess is that the relative lack of HOFers (only 7 in all; no Cobb, Mathewson, Lajoie, Speaker) and the fragile condition of the cards are black marks against it, but there may be other reasons.

As a final question, Lipset's book on "T" cards theorized that the numbers written at the bottom of the cards (1 to 15; some have none) was a guide to their scarcity, but recent price guides don't take this into account. I'd appreciate any insights.

Bill

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Posted By: David

I have long been a fan of the T222s, as they, along with the other Fatimas, are one of the few photographic baseball and tobacco cards of the 20th century. Last of a breed.

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Posted By: Brett Domue

Some are close to impossible, some are very common.

I have only ever seen 2 Walter Johnson's from this set. Others such as Marquard, Alexander, Jennings and Bresnahan you see all the time.

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

I agree - the Johnson card and several others are much more difficult than the rest. Johnson's has a "15" written at the bottom; Lipset maintains in his "T" book that any with "12" to "15" are rarer (16 out of 52), which seems correct from what I've seen. He thought then (and still does, judging from the descriptions in his last auction) that the Lelivelt and Austin cards are the most difficult, but they're probably not harder than the others. Of course, Lipset relied on anecdotal evidence to determine scarcity...

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Posted By: Vintagecatcher

I agree that this is a tough set to find, and finding cards in excellent or better condition is even more difficult. I recommend when you search Ebay that you use Fatima as a keyword. There is a Hughie Jennings currently on Ebay, however, it's in poor condition.

I am currently looking for a Roger Bresnahan in excellent or better condition if anyone is looking to sell.

Thanks. Patrick.

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Posted By: Darren J. Duet

How quickly time flies.

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Posted By: Richard Masson

including some of the tough ones. I need six for the set, but got blasted at the end. The tough ones traded for $800+ each. Not so unloved anymore, so it would seem

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

There's one from wayyyy back. I was ahead of my time - of course, the cards were 1/10th the price at the time.

Bill

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Posted By: Julie

on ebay, where i won a Pete Alexander (see 20th century misc. on http://www.geocities.com/julie_vognar/home), and was particularly impressed by a T222 Bill posted as his favorite card, T222 of a guy about 2 feet off the ground (since the picture was taken in about 1913, that's no mean feat of photography!)

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Posted By: Judge Dred

The T222 is one of my favorite early 20th century issues. I prefer actual photos of players much more than the lithograph style cards commonly found in that era. To me there's nothing like having a true photo bring life to a player and an era of baseball that is so widely collected.

These cards are very fragile and condition sensitive. A nice condition T222 is much tougher to find than most issues (as widely distributed). For this reason serious collectors of these cards have a great appreciation for the really nice condition cards that are found. I always considered these cards as under valued, at least until the latest offering of T222s on ebay which sold for over $10K.

On a side note I think that the T200s are the best team cards produced in that era (if you don't take the larger associated premiums into consideration). A complete set of (16) T200s provides you with a photographic image of many of the players of that era. The Philadelphia National team card is one of the least expensive cards from this series but it is my favorite T200.

T222 and T200 are (in my opinion) two of the best issues of the early 20th century.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I'd had a Cubs card for years but only recently got into the set. I picked up the A's, Giants and Pirates to have contemporary T cards of Mack, Plank, Wagner and Thorpe. Next up, Cleveland.

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Posted By: Josh K.

I love this set, but have been unable to locate the one card I really want - Alexander. Ive been looking for one for over a year now without much luck. One did pop up on ebay 6-8 mos. ago. It was ungraded and had a small half inch tear - I decided not to bid thinking I would surely see another in better condition. Now Im wishing I had bid.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The nice thing about Fatimas (both sets) is that reprints or fakes of the cards are easy to identify for the beginner. The Fatimas are actual photos ('real photo') and actual photos have no printed ink pattern even under a microscope. All the reprints have a dot pattern.