Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I'd consider it a badge of honor to be on that list.

Not quite there yet!

[perezfan]

[jasonkaiser25]

Just a question out of curiosity.... Obviously almost everyone agrees that selling a card that has been altered without disclosing it is wrong. Do you think that if you have a card that has been graded and you crack it out of the slab and sell it raw that you have an obligation to disclose what the grade was?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by jasonkaiser25

Just a question out of curiosity.... Obviously almost everyone agrees that selling a card that has been altered without disclosing it is wrong. Do you think that if you have a card that has been graded and you crack it out of the slab and sell it raw that you have an obligation to disclose what the grade was?

Only if you know it's altered.

Otherwise, no obligation, as it's just arbitrary anyway. The buyer of the card can just judge it for themselves. No "expert opinion" or randomly assigned number is necessary!

[drcy]

Originally Posted by jasonkaiser25

Just a question out of curiosity.... Obviously almost everyone agrees that selling a card that has been altered without disclosing it is wrong. Do you think that if you have a card that has been graded and you crack it out of the slab and sell it raw that you have an obligation to disclose what the grade was?

A seller should give honest, informed information and represent the card accurately to the buyer. As grading is subjective and sometimes wrong and buyers often pick cards that are wrongly graded, that doesn't make disclosing the previous professional grade required. But a seller knows what information is and is not relevant and important that should be disclosed.


If you're selling "as looks like Mint" an ExMt card that was previously graded as ExMt that's deceptive, but that's so misrepresenting the card whether or not one should disclose the professional grade.

[Promethius88]

Originally Posted by drcy

A seller should give honest, informed information and represent the card accurately to the buyer. As grading is subjective and sometimes wrong and buyers often pick cards that are wrongly graded, that doesn't make disclosing the previous professional grade required. But a seller knows what information is and is not relevant and important that should be disclosed.


If you're selling "as looks like Mint" an ExMt card that was previously graded as ExMt that's deceptive, but that's so misrepresenting the card whether or not one should disclose the professional grade.

I see plenty of people selling cards on websites, ah's, Ebay and even here that will say something to the effect of "looks better than the grade". As you noted, grading is subjective so if Joe Blow pulls a card that was ExMt from a slab and advertises it as "looks like mint", maybe it does. As long as it has a good, quality picture, the buyer should make that determination. We push the saying "buy the slab and not the holder". I never hear someone have a slabbed card in a 7 advertise it as "Well, it's in a 7 holder but only looks like a 4 to me".
I agree with you that as a seller I want to be as accurate and up front as I possibly can be with any card that leaves my possession because that it my name, my reputation on the line.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Is there a prize for the most people posting a row on one's ignore list?

Hi Ted.

Now if someone will quote this Ted can see it.

[Johnny630]

Does anyone see a good long term outlook of this?

For me it’s going to take Until most of the money comes out of all this.......

It’s all cyclical..........Here is what I see envisioning happening........

No TPG’s will be held accountable.....their options become less valuable......doesn’t matter my mind is made up, their complicit, extremely inept, and or way worse .......

No Trimmers will do jail time.......no auction houses will do jail time.....
Repeat cycle 10-15 years down the road
You can only polish a turd so long......it’s still and will always be a turd .....very said. Prayers for something positive in 2020 for this crooked industry

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Hi Ted.

Now if someone will quote this Ted can see it.

I love Ted, such a kidder. double blocked. Rats

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Hi Ted.

Now if someone will quote this Ted can see it.

No such luck

[111gecko]

I believe the auction house/EBay shilling will be exposed and punished. Also, the IRS will get theirs on the trimming/kick backs etc. The rest...not so much. Just my thoughts.

[Johnny630]

How’s CLCT since joes last conference earnings call?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by 111gecko

I believe the auction house/EBay shilling will be exposed and punished. Also, the IRS will get theirs on the trimming/kick backs etc. The rest...not so much. Just my thoughts.

To me, the easiest case to make against all these losers is that they avoided their income tax. Sort of an Al Capone job. If they won't be able to get them on anything else, they always have that in their back pocket. Good times

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

To me, the easiest case to make against all these losers is that they avoided their income tax. Sort of an Al Capone job. If they won't be able to get them on anything else, they always have that in their back pocket. Good times

How do you know they didn't claim the income and pay the taxes?

[JackW]

He knows nothing.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by steve B

How do you know they didn't claim the income and pay the taxes?

Do most illegitimate businesses pay income taxes on their earnings? Just asking.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

you mean the 2.8 million dollar one LOLLOL...nah, just popped reviewed and flipped with conservation when he was 12.

It's just a $3 million dollar beat between friends.

That card has been in a 9 holder long before Evan bought it. I dont see any evidence in that blowout thread that he trimmed anything. Although the paper cutter purchase isn't exactly a good sign. An explanation for that, if there is one, could go a long way.

Did I miss the part where they showed proof of who trimmed or consigned the cards? Or is just that the ebay ID associated with his business purchased them?

[bxb]

OK, went through my collection for the first time in a while.

Is it my imagination, or does half my collection in TPG holders look slightly trimmed?

This thread is messing with my head...

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by steve B

How do you know they didn't claim the income and pay the taxes?

because crooked Fu**s, don't pay their taxes...I guarantee it PERIOD

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Do most illegitimate businesses pay income taxes on their earnings? Just asking.

I don't know about everyone else, but all my friends and I that own our own business's, pay 100's of thousands a year in taxes. Do you think they are making 10K on a card and paying 20-30% in taxes ?

[japhi]

Originally Posted by steve B

How do you know they didn't claim the income and pay the taxes?

I would bet a lot of money that cap gains taxes were not paid properly or at all on a lot of these sales. Not an expert in cap gains on US collectables but I’d suspect that the IRS would have a heyday with some of these dealers.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

That card has been in a 9 holder long before Evan bought it. I dont see any evidence in that blowout thread that he trimmed anything. Although the paper cutter purchase isn't exactly a good sign. An explanation for that, if there is one, could go a long way.

Did I miss the part where they showed proof of who trimmed or consigned the cards? Or is just that the ebay ID associated with his business purchased them?

Come on, get real. Paper cutter aside they have found numerous cards that were bought by him and resold in fairly short order, altered, for significant gains. Where there is smoke, if it walks like a duck, etc etc etc

[Johnny630]

I don’t think many of the sales were real......they were fake Kabookie Thester BS.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by bxb

OK, went through my collection for the first time in a while.

Is it my imagination, or does half my collection in TPG holders look slightly trimmed?

This thread is messing with my head...

Half sounds about right. Doesn't matter what grade, high, mid or low. Best of luck to you, as you dig deeper into it.

And to all others in the same boat... do not hesitate to send them back to PSA, and make them live up to their supposed "guarantee". Given their continued denial and arrogance, they should not be allowed to sweep this under the rug!

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by japhi

Come on, get real. Paper cutter aside they have found numerous cards that were bought by him and resold in fairly short order, altered, for significant gains. Where there is smoke, if it walks like a duck, etc etc etc

If the FBI is actually investigating this the evidence should be clear. Someone consigned all of these altered cards. The only question will be did they change hands privately or at a show first.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Half sounds about right. Doesn't matter what grade, high, mid or low.

This sounds fairly exaggerated to me. Even with all the fraud being uncovered and with how there are more midgrade '50s superstar cards on the BODA list than would've been expected, it's still hard to imagine that half of all graded cards in existence have been altered.

There is way too much mediocre low-mid graded stuff out there for that, especially in the countless spots where a minor alteration would only be improving a $60 card into a $100 one.

I'd have to think that when it comes to the post WW2 stuff, the bulk of the issue would still be around grade 6-7 and up. Obviously anything earlier 20th century is a different ballgame

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Do most illegitimate businesses pay income taxes on their earnings? Just asking.

I only know of one. Years ago I read about a different organized crime figure that was brought up on tax evasion, but got off because he had claimed and itemized all his ill gotten gains and paid taxes on them.
No idea what happened after, but I can't imagine it went well for him. But at least he didn't go down over not paying taxes.

It's a hard thing to know, unless someone gets charged and has to prove they paid.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by japhi

I would bet a lot of money that cap gains taxes were not paid properly or at all on a lot of these sales. Not an expert in cap gains on US collectables but I’d suspect that the IRS would have a heyday with some of these dealers.

Not being a tax guy, I'm not sure if it would go under capital gains, business profit, or miscellaneous income.

My card sales etc, get claimed as miscellaneous income. They are also pretty small. And since my wife is in the computer industry taxed pretty heavily. (No that that's a bad thing)
Hmmmm….. if I call the odd bits of "Junk" I sell "assets" maybe I can call it capital gains instead and save a few percent.. Nah, best to just pay the higher rate and have no problems.

[Fuddjcal]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=634

Here comes the 71's "I ain't no Shellanbeck girl" .

And this hasn't been discussed but you know all too well it's happening with all the "flips". More flip's than mary lou retton.

A previously trimmed 7.5 that was cracked out yet again to make a nice fake 8 and beat some chump for 400. Another 5 k to add to the running total that will exceed 1 billion once this scam has been tallied. And those will just be the ones we know of. Collect what you love and if you love to get your teeth kicked in, keep supporting the PSA fraud.

[Johnny630]

Does anyone holding a large amount or large value amount of Non Altered Slabbed Cards have an Exit Strategy To Limit their losses/downside potential from the impending collateral damage that in my opinion will be occurring from all
This Mess?

Maybe my theory is way off idk

Thoughts ?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Does anyone holding a large amount or large value amount of Non Altered Slabbed Cards have an Exit Strategy To Limit their losses/downside potential from the impending collateral damage that in my opinion will be occurring from all
This Mess?

Maybe my theory is way off idk

Thoughts ?

Personally I have been selling most of mine. I have a few more I want to unload soon.

I do have a complete graded set(I had them graded) that I know are all unaltered, am still on the fence about selling them. I have had them for years and I bought them from a guy that had them for decades. I do have about 10 other graded cards I plan on keeping.

I personally hope the scammers and lemmings get stuck holding the bag. I don't see it happening though because too many lemmings will jump at the chance to buy the altered graded cards if the prices start falling.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Personally I have been selling most of mine. I have a few more I want to unload soon.

I do have a complete graded set(I had them graded) that I know are all unaltered, am still on the fence about selling them. I have had them for years and I bought them from a guy that had them for decades. I do have about 10 other graded cards I plan on keeping.

I personally hope the scammers and lemmings get stuck holding the bag. I don't see it happening though because too many lemmings will jump at the chance to buy the altered graded cards if the prices start falling.

Much respect for selling them. I don't think 100K (400 cards) is that much to get stuck with when the musical chairs ponzi scheme finally stops.

I honestly think it will be after I die and I'll let my grand kids sort it out for fun and a few extra bucks in their pockets. I still like em, I'm just pissed that I was ripped off. Mostly just mad at myself because in the back of my mind, I knew.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Does anyone holding a large amount or large value amount of Non Altered Slabbed Cards have an Exit Strategy To Limit their losses/downside potential from the impending collateral damage that in my opinion will be occurring from all
This Mess?

Maybe my theory is way off idk

Thoughts ?

If there was a massive correction, it would have happened by now. There won’t be. Sorry.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

If there was a massive correction, it would have happened by now. There won’t be. Sorry.

We can agree to disagree no problem at all. I just think there will be a substantial correction coming. I very well could be wrong we will see how it plays out. I chose to sell and Stay on the sidelines for now.....

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

If there was a massive correction, it would have happened by now. There won’t be. Sorry.

Not sure how you can make this statement, as the FBI investigation is still ongoing. Don't you think word will spread, as these people are arrested and the truth about fraudulently graded PSA cards comes out a much wider audience?

Thousands have already been exposed, but that's just a tiny fraction of what's really out there. It's been happening for years, but the ability to prove it is still barely in its infancy.

Stay tuned... it's just the tip of the iceberg, with many more developments to follow.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Not sure how you can make this statement, as the FBI investigation is still ongoing. Don't you think word will spread, as these people are arrested and the truth about fraudulently graded PSA cards comes out a much wider audience?

Thousands have already been exposed, but that's just a tiny fraction of what's really out there. It's been happening for years, but the ability to prove it is still barely in its infancy.

Stay tuned... it's just the tip of the iceberg, with many more developments to follow.

I agree Mark

[Rhotchkiss]

We will see. I am long on cards - very old, very rare, blue chip players, blue chip sets, etc. I believe the market for Cobb, Wagner, Ruth, etc will always be there, regardless of how this shakes out. There may be some damage concerning high grade t206s and 33 Goudey, and I think high grade cards from 1950s+ could take a real beating; but I am not worried about the likes of this card:

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

We will see. I am long on cards - very old, very rare, blue chip players, blue chip sets, etc. I believe the market for Cobb, Wagner, Ruth, etc will always be there, regardless of how this shakes out. There may be some damage concerning high grade t206s and 33 Goudey, and I think high grade cards from 1950s+ could take a real beating; but I am not worried about the likes of this card:

Awesome cards and I agree

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

We will see. I am long on cards - very old, very rare, blue chip players, blue chip sets, etc. I believe the market for Cobb, Wagner, Ruth, etc will always be there, regardless of how this shakes out. There may be some damage concerning high grade t206s and 33 Goudey, and I think high grade cards from 1950s+ could take a real beating; but I am not worried about the likes of this card:

Nice run. That it my assumption as well. I'd throw Cobb, Gehrig, and Jackson in that same group. Lower grade, high eye appeal cards with a greater chance of being unaltered seem the safest long term bet at this point.

The huge premiums paid for some higher grade cards may come down if people realize most have been altered at one time or another. But based on the sales of high grade vintage and modern 9.5s and 10s I have not seen any indication of that as of yet.

[irv]

I think a lot of people will get away from graded cards all together.

I've read and understand the reasons why TPG's became part of the hobby but with today's technology, as far as photos and scanning goes, things aren't like those days before the TPG's came along.

Some will say they provide a service, help those know the cards are real, not doctored, etc, but I think a lot of people now realize those are things even TPG's can't guarantee.

[bnorth]

This is basketball and mainly Beckett but HOLY BLEEPING WOW and it takes a LOT to get me to say that when it comes to the shadiness in the hobby.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1216119

[sbfinley]

Both the fine art and the antiquities markets are swimming with fakes and sophisticated counterfeits yet prices and record highs in both markets continue to rise year after year. I don’t see why the sports card market would be any different. For the vast majority of sports collectors (or really all collectors) being able to A) Show it off, B) be able to say “I own it”, C) Complete a project, or D) all of the above far outweighs everything else.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

If there was a massive correction, it would have happened by now. There won’t be. Sorry.

A lot of data is ruined by shill bidding. If using VCP I'd remove all PWCC final sales from the equation.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

I'm just pissed that I was ripped off. Mostly just mad at myself because in the back of my mind, I knew.

I feel the same way. Throughout 20 years I sent thousands of cards to PSA for grading and was a 'platinum' member. I knew they weren't perfect, and believed some things here and there fell through the cracks. I let their staff treat me like garbage, but believed in the product so much that I was the first guy to their defense when anti-graders bashed them. Looking back, I was the fool. I've been liquidating my graded .99 seven day no reserve auctions the past couple months. I have most of a PSA/DNA set that I couldnt stand the look of now, so I cracked then out. I'll never buy graded again and, ironically, find myself on the anti-grader side of debates in FB forums. I guess I needed the actual visual proof BODA provided to wake me up. Now I only collect raw in binders.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

I feel the same way. Throughout 20 years I sent thousands of cards to PSA for grading and was a 'platinum' member. I knew they weren't perfect, and believed some things here and there fell through the cracks. I let their staff treat me like garbage, but believed in the product so much that I was the first guy to their defense when anti-graders bashed them. Looking back, I was the fool. I've been liquidating my graded .99 seven day no reserve auctions the past couple months. I have most of a PSA/DNA set that I couldnt stand the look of now, so I cracked then out. I'll never buy graded again and, ironically, find myself on the anti-grader side of debates in FB forums. I guess I needed the actual visual proof BODA provided to wake me up. Now I only collect raw in binders.

The Market Was Manipulated, Sold Pricing/VCP starting late 2013.......My mind and memory goes back two 2 HOF Rookie Cards..... both stayed at the same level’s for PSA 8’s for years then all the sudden they went crazy stating end of 2013... I’m talking about Rose and Ryan Rookies...they were marketed as critical blue chip assets pieces...
What a Crock Of S**T.....Give me a Break......

No way I’m calling total Market Manipulation by So Called “Investors” and others.....such a farce....top it all off there are thousands of more altered cards in the Bogus So Called Market Place...it’s deep rotten and wrong...

Top it all off the TPG’s Don’t Know their Asses from a Hole in the Ground when it comes to knowing wether a card is trimmed or altered.....Or Far Worse They’re In on it with Certain Big Time Submitters... Invitationals ?????

Very Sad on Many Levels

[Bigdaddy]

Ran across these reprints of Mike Trout serial #'d Bowman Chrome auto cards on Etsy. The seller lists them as reprints and is not trying to pass them off as real, but I cant believe that they won't make their way into someone's hands down the road who would do that.

Also, several other #'d, autographed reprints are listed. At a minimum, there should be some type of copyright infringement issues with these.

I've contacted Etsy and alerted them to these unauthorized counterfeit card; we'll see if there is any action.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Ran across these reprints of Mike Trout serial #'d Bowman Chrome auto cards on Etsy. The seller lists them as reprints and is not trying to pass them off as real, but I cant believe that they won't make their way into someone's hands down the road who would do that.

Also, several other #'d, autographed reprints are listed. At a minimum, there should be some type of copyright infringement issues with these.

I've contacted Etsy and alerted them to these unauthorized counterfeit card; we'll see if there is any action.

Etsy has more fake items than Coaches Corner. That same type of stuff is also all over eBay. I have been amazed for years that high end counterfeits have not made real cards completely worthless as they are so easy to make.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Ran across these reprints of Mike Trout serial #'d Bowman Chrome auto cards on Etsy. The seller lists them as reprints and is not trying to pass them off as real, but I cant believe that they won't make their way into someone's hands down the road who would do that.

Also, several other #'d, autographed reprints are listed. At a minimum, there should be some type of copyright infringement issues with these.

I've contacted Etsy and alerted them to these unauthorized counterfeit card; we'll see if there is any action.

The way Etsy operates is the copyright holder must file the report (which iniates legal action) and then Etsy pulls down the listing to err on the side of caution. If you're not the copyright holder then you may be liable for damages if found guilty of copyfraud.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Both the fine art and the antiquities markets are swimming with fakes and sophisticated counterfeits yet prices and record highs in both markets continue to rise year after year. I don’t see why the sports card market would be any different. For the vast majority of sports collectors (or really all collectors) being able to A) Show it off, B) be able to say “I own it”, C) Complete a project, or D) all of the above far outweighs everything else.

I have no idea what will happen to card pricing as this fraud all unfolds but the I don’t think sportscards compare well with fine art. The pool of art buyers is significantly larger then those buying cards. It would only take a few whales to exit cards for prices to adjust.

And card values, according to the pwcc indexes are flat the past 30 months. 30 months that should have seen significant gains.

And unrelated, but I am skeptical that there will be a next generation that can absorb all of the collections that will get sold in the next 20 years. Average age here has to be mid 50s, market is going to be flooded with large collections coming to market. Is there really a second wave of collectors to absorb all of these cards are premium prices?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by japhi

Is there really a second wave of collectors to absorb all of these cards are premium prices?

Depends on how many Gary Vee lemmings there are.