new low for the ebay authenticity thing

[glchen]

Originally Posted by steve B

There are others way more qualified to answer, and if I didn't expect the answer to be long I'd ask it differently.

Should a buyer expect Ebay to protect them from their own ignorance?

Is there a legal basis for that expectation?

And the unanswerable - why do people find it so onerous to relieve themselves of their ignorance by learning things and instead abdicate that responsibility to a proven incompetent or corrupt third party?

I generally find willful ignorance worse than the scamming itself.

I completely disagree with the comments in this post. Scamming is always worse than ignorance. It's outrageous to me that we can blame the victim of the scamming instead of the perpetrator. There's an entire thread on N54 right now on the scamming going on in the BST, and many of the victims are experienced and knowledgeable board members. it's the same thing with ebay. Buyers on ebay expect a safe marketplace. They shouldn't have to be on guard that they will be scammed.

Therefore, in general, I completely support the steps that ebay is taking with their guarantee authentication service. I have bought several items that went through this service, both graded and raw. I've never had an issue with the additional days that it took for the items to go through the service. Frankly, the biggest time issue was that one seller sent the item to the authentication service through USPS Registered Mail, that that took FOREVER. But everyone recommends Register mail for expensive items, so I was fine with it.

I agree that it makes less sense to have graded cards go through the Authentication service, but I'm fine with it. As others have mentioned, there have been scams even with graded cards such as empty box, bogus tracking numbers, cracked slabs, fake slabs, and so forth. Let me put it this way. Let's say the major auction houses said that as a new policy, graded cards would now be shipped directly from the consignor to you instead of from the auction house. if you have any problems after receiving the item, tough luck. I think there would be outrage against any auction house that announced this change because folks expect the auction house to do some basic sanity checking for even the graded cards as part of the service they expect from the BP they pay. It's the same thing here.

[Yoda]

I agree that Jay's suspicion will be foretold and Ebay, in the not so distant future, will decide that buyers should have to pay, say $5, for their "invaluable" authentication service. No free lunches. No sir.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Yoda

I agree that Jay's suspicion will be foretold and Ebay, in the not so distant future, will decide that buyers should have to pay, say $5, for their "invaluable" authentication service. No free lunches. No sir.

Apparently authentication has been required for sneakers (and I think watches) on eBay for a while. Does anyone know if there is a charge to the seller or buyer for that?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Apparently authentication has been required for sneakers (and I think watches) on eBay for a while. Does anyone know if there is a charge to the seller or buyer for that?

I have bought several sneakers since it started and there is still no extra fee.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bob, I'd be surprised with what is likely the minimal time involved in inspection given how many slabs they are likely be flooded with, whatever clerical personnel are handling this could even discern a good fake slab. Maybe there's some invisible thing that would make it easy for the very latest generation of holders, but almost surely nothing of the sort exists for all the prior generations..

If EVERY graded card listed for $500 or more is going out there now, that's bound to be a huge volume and they're probably scrambling just to put them all in those nifty baggies and blue folders and process the mailing.

[G1911]

What happens to graded cards outside of the big 3 and CSG?

GAI, SCD, GMA, and numerous other old, dubious, or scam graders. Many of these cards will still sell over the threshold for a nice card, as the threshold is not high. PSA will authenticate that the card is in a legit GMA slab, ignore that it’s probably trimmed, and send it to the buyer? Or do they just forward it along without certifying it? Has anyone bought one since this started?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

What happens to graded cards outside of the big 3 and CSG?

GAI, SCD, GMA, and numerous other old, dubious, or scam graders. Many of these cards will still sell over the threshold for a nice card, as the threshold is not high. PSA will authenticate that the card is in a legit GMA slab, ignore that it’s probably trimmed, and send it to the buyer? Or do they just forward it along without certifying it? Has anyone bought one since this started?

In all instances of the graded card review, PSA is simply looking at the holder and the flip to verify they are 100% authentic. The card inside could be altered or not even real but as long as the holder and the flip are not tampered with, you will be sent the card. Pretty silly stuff.

When you go to do a listing on eBay for a graded card these are the options you are required to pick from for the listing: PSA, SGC, CSG, BVG, BGS, BCCG, GMA, KSA, HGA but you can enter your own acronym too. Maybe those 9 are the ones flagged for the AG program.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bob, I'd be surprised with what is likely the minimal time involved in inspection given how many slabs they are likely be flooded with, whatever clerical personnel are handling this could even discern a good fake slab. Maybe there's some invisible thing that would make it easy for the very latest generation of holders, but almost surely nothing of the sort exists for all the prior generations..

If EVERY graded card listed for $500 or more is going out there now, that's bound to be a huge volume and they're probably scrambling just to put them all in those nifty baggies and blue folders and process the mailing.

Peter, don't disagree at all. Whomever is looking at these cards is just giving an opinion, so there is no definitive decisions being made that could potentially push back liability on the TPG or online selling platform. I'm guessing they're basically saying that if it looks like something may not be correct, we're just calling off the transaction and sending the money and cards back to their respective buyers and sellers. Not really sure what will happen otherwise if they find what they think is a fake slab/flip. The TPG doing the examining can only cancel a cert # for their own slabbed cards, they certainly don't have any say so over another TPG's slabbed cards that I'm aware of. And as someone else pointed out, canceling a cert # for a faked flip/slab then can cause an issue for the person that owns the real/legitimate card/slab. Can only imagine how happy a Registry person would be to see his/her ranking negatively affected were one of their cards to be de-certified in this manner, especially if they weren't contacted and given advance notice first. I'd love to be a fly on the wall to listen in to that exchange, were one ever to happen.

That is also why I'm guessing that if they do find what they think is an issue with a slabbed card that they will still return it to the seller. Taking and confiscating a questionable card holder, along with the card in the slab, won't go over real well with a seller if the people examining the card holder erred and there really wasn't anything wrong or questionable with the card itself.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

Peter, don't disagree at all. Whomever is looking at these cards is just giving an opinion, so there is no definitive decisions being made that could potentially push back liability on the TPG or online selling platform. I'm guessing they're basically saying that if it looks like something may not be correct, we're just calling off the transaction and sending the money and cards back to their respective buyers and sellers. Not really sure what will happen otherwise if they find what they think is a fake slab/flip. The TPG doing the examining can only cancel a cert # for their own slabbed cards, they certainly don't have any say so over another TPG's slabbed cards that I'm aware of. And as someone else pointed out, canceling a cert # for a faked flip/slab then can cause an issue for the person that owns the real/legitimate card/slab. Can only imagine how happy a Registry person would be to see his/her ranking negatively affected were one of their cards to be de-certified in this manner, especially if they weren't contacted and given advance notice first. I'd love to be a fly on the wall to listen in to that exchange, were one ever to happen.

That is also why I'm guessing that if they do find what they think is an issue with a slabbed card that they will still return it to the seller. Taking and confiscating a questionable card holder, along with the card in the slab, won't go over real well with a seller if the people examining the card holder erred and there really wasn't anything wrong or questionable with the card itself.

Unless the seller somehow agreed in fine print somewhere, I think they can decertify but I don't think they can confiscate.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by BobC

Peter, don't disagree at all. Whomever is looking at these cards is just giving an opinion, so there is no definitive decisions being made that could potentially push back liability on the TPG or online selling platform. I'm guessing they're basically saying that if it looks like something may not be correct, we're just calling off the transaction and sending the money and cards back to their respective buyers and sellers. Not really sure what will happen otherwise if they find what they think is a fake slab/flip. The TPG doing the examining can only cancel a cert # for their own slabbed cards, they certainly don't have any say so over another TPG's slabbed cards that I'm aware of. And as someone else pointed out, canceling a cert # for a faked flip/slab then can cause an issue for the person that owns the real/legitimate card/slab. Can only imagine how happy a Registry person would be to see his/her ranking negatively affected were one of their cards to be de-certified in this manner, especially if they weren't contacted and given advance notice first. I'd love to be a fly on the wall to listen in to that exchange, were one ever to happen.

That is also why I'm guessing that if they do find what they think is an issue with a slabbed card that they will still return it to the seller. Taking and confiscating a questionable card holder, along with the card in the slab, won't go over real well with a seller if the people examining the card holder erred and there really wasn't anything wrong or questionable with the card itself.

Hi Bob,

In the past when PSA has made the claim that a fake slab was provided to them on a review, outside of the AG program, they have broken out the card from the holder, deactivated the cert and returned the card to the customer in a card saver.

I think we can be sure that PSA is not going to return a PSA slabbed card in the sealed holder to the seller if the holder or flip do not pass the authenticity test. Not sure if what they would do if that same card were in an SGC, CSG or Beckett holder.

Hopefully a situation will not occur where PSA will take the opportunity to use the "fake holder" claim to take an altered card off the market and pass the cost onto the seller rather than writing a check to buy the card back.

In the meantime I have yet to hear a single person state their graded card did not get authenticated. With people being as prolific with their social media posts I would think we would have heard something, no?

Chase

[steve B]

Originally Posted by glchen

I completely disagree with the comments in this post. Scamming is always worse than ignorance. It's outrageous to me that we can blame the victim of the scamming instead of the perpetrator. There's an entire thread on N54 right now on the scamming going on in the BST, and many of the victims are experienced and knowledgeable board members. it's the same thing with ebay. Buyers on ebay expect a safe marketplace. They shouldn't have to be on guard that they will be scammed.

Therefore, in general, I completely support the steps that ebay is taking with their guarantee authentication service. I have bought several items that went through this service, both graded and raw. I've never had an issue with the additional days that it took for the items to go through the service. Frankly, the biggest time issue was that one seller sent the item to the authentication service through USPS Registered Mail, that that took FOREVER. But everyone recommends Register mail for expensive items, so I was fine with it.

I agree that it makes less sense to have graded cards go through the Authentication service, but I'm fine with it. As others have mentioned, there have been scams even with graded cards such as empty box, bogus tracking numbers, cracked slabs, fake slabs, and so forth. Let me put it this way. Let's say the major auction houses said that as a new policy, graded cards would now be shipped directly from the consignor to you instead of from the auction house. if you have any problems after receiving the item, tough luck. I think there would be outrage against any auction house that announced this change because folks expect the auction house to do some basic sanity checking for even the graded cards as part of the service they expect from the BP they pay. It's the same thing here.

The scams pulled off or attempted here are an entirely different situation than most of the ones on Ebay.

Sending to PSA or CSG is only intended to catch items that are not authentic or not what they are claimed to be.
They wouldn't preclude a scam where the item is never actually shipped and the seller vanishes.

In the case of bad cards, I believe it's up to the buyer to have some idea what they're buying and some ability to tell if it's real.
PSA themselves don't have as much ability to spot alterations as they claim, and I wouldn't expect CSG to be better because they're new.

I've bought a handful of fake or altered cards over 40+ years. All but one I suspected were fake or knew for sure it was altered/fake. The only one that fooled me was the first, when I'd been collecting more seriously for less than a year.
My own knowledge is the first line of defense, That applies to all my hobbies.
And I believe it should apply even more as the items become more expensive.

Not having that knowledge is, at least to me irresponsible.
Like saying "I don't need to worry about riptides despite the warnings! They have lifeguards."