AAA graded Gypsy Queen Proof

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Posted By: Judge Dred

Anyone care to comment on this AAA graded Gypsy Queen Proof?


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31718&item=5126075478&rd=1

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Posted By: runscott

AAA is one of Roy Huff's grading companies down in Florida - they grade baseball Guide cut-outs.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Hey this will probably be on the cover of the next SCD.

Suggestion to Bob--You may want to hold off writing the article on this one.

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Posted By: hankron

It's a modern fake.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Actually looks remarkably fresh. He could have done a better job of aging the card. The bleaching agent or solvent on the "PROOF" stamp is a nice touch, however.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Julie

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Posted By: hankron

I guess the funny thing about these proofs is that there have only been two organizations who have 'authenticated' them: AAA and American Memorabilia.

Watching the way American Memorabilia handles things (I haven't checked, have they yet mentioned in the auction decription that Seth had the proofs cut apart at a local framing shop?), perhaps Roy should be the one offended by the comparison.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

he's got a reserve on it...so my vote is leaning towards moron rather than crook.

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Posted By: david

can the winner of the card take AAA to court if it is proven to be fake, which i imagine should nt be very hard to do.

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Posted By: Roy Huff

You guys are idiots. I guess you haven't noticed I haven't sold any AAA stuff in a while. I have no affiliation with AAA and never did. There were a grader that I used for a while just like NASA SMG SMA ect. I live in Hawaii not Florida anyway.

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Posted By: runscott

That's true, AAA is actually in Hawaii, as is Roy Huff - their addresses are even on the same street. Huff set up AAA as a "grading company" to make the paper cut-outs (originally under 'libertyforall') he was selling appear to be legitimate.

He has since expanded to several ebay id's and has created several additional paper-cut-out grading companies as well, continuing to buy old Reach and Spalding guides under one i.d., and sell them in their slabbed form, along with maps cut out of old atlases, under another i.d. But that's all pretty much old irrelevant stuff at this point, since no one here buys paper cut-outs and ebay isn't interested in shutting them down.

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Posted By: ROy Huff

I have no affiliation with AAA. The reason AAA is on my same street is because a person I know ran with the idea once he found out I was sending cut outs to NASA and started AAA. I have only 2 ids on ebay libertyforall and psa10gemcards. All other id's are other people besides me. You need to get your facts straight before you make libelous statements like that.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Dear Mr. Huff,
I have never met you and don't have a clue who you are, but instead of going on the board to defend your reputation against so-called libelous statements, why don't you just do the right thing- accept the fact that the card you are selling is nothing more than a modern reprint, admit that a card that is graded and placed in a screw down holder is not universally accepted by anyone, and just quietly remove the card from your ebay listing. The issue is not libel, it is the product. Your product is simply faulty. Sincerely, Barry Sloate

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Posted By: runscott

But it's interesting that Roy considers the fact that we've associated him with AAA to be libelous, especially since that's the grading company he "chooses to use". I won't get into the rest of his claims since we've already proved them false in previous discussion threads.

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Posted By: hankron

The only possible way Roy could accuse someone of libel in this situation is if if he is saying AAA is a scam. Considering most AAA cutouts have been sold by Roy, I'd be curious as to how he would argue his case.

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Posted By: MW

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5121452896

Roy, what is this one going to be? A 1919 Chicago Tribune Babe Ruth "Rookie card" graded VSA 10?

Or this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5123003678


The bottom line, Roy, is that collectors of vintage SPORTS CARDS continue to be misled and deceived by your auctions. Many of them think they're getting legitimate baseball cards when they bid. Instead, they receive adulterated pieces of magazines and now, newspaper clippings. Stop cluttering up the pre-1930 baseball card category on eBay with your fraudulently listed crap. Thank you.

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Posted By: Roy Huff

My item description clearly stated that my items are paper stock cut outs and I've even given a detailed description on the first line of each auction to avoid any additional confusion. If people want original nice looking memorabilia at a discount to traditional pack fresh cards they should have the opportunity to do so. This is clearly what is driving the market and what has forced additional competition for additional sellers and from additional grading companies. You may ask why a piece of paper is worth anything well then I ask why is a piece of cardboard is worth anything? The answer is because someone is willing to pay for it. The real reason card dealers dont like me is because of the competition. Further. I never said AAA was a scam but to say that I am AAA implies a conflict of interest which may cause some prospective buyers to think I am grading my own stuff and therefore decide not to purchase. All I have to prove is that there was loss associated with an false statement in order to sue for libel damage. That not only goes for saying that I am AAA, it also goes for saying the items are fake or I am misprepresenting them. All you have to do is read the description and any judge will see it is clear what is being sold. SO keep up you libel and you will get a cease and decist from my lawyer. You keep it up after that and you will get served with papers.

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Posted By: hankron

Roy, you don't understand what is libel. For example, if someone made the honest mistake of saying you owned AAA when you do not, that by definition is not libel.

I do, however, agree that bidders have to be dim bulbs to not figure out what is being offered. It shouldn't require consultation with a Louvre curator to figure out what is a "paper cutout with partial ad or article on back."

Last, ethical behavior is not what you can get away with. Ethical behavior is doing the right thing, even when no one would find out if you didn't.

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Posted By: David Vargha

You are scum and you know it. So sue me.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: runscott

<< All I have to prove is that there was loss associated with an false statement in order to sue for libel damage. >>

Gee Roy, I guess you should start suing everyone already. Why haven't you? Are you just a really nice guy disguised as a scum-bag?

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Posted By: J Levine

Roy,
Why don't you petition ebay for your own category...

Photo cut-outs, pre-1930

That way, you can stop cluttering up the card categories with your crap...funny thing is that I have tried in the past to get AAA to grade something legit for me out of curiosity and they never seem to return my e-mails, etc. Why is that? Do you have an exclusive contract with them? How much do you pay them to grade your crap? Do you get better treatment because you are a friend of the owner?

-Joshua

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Posted By: Roy Huff

AAA charged me $8 a piece. They grade for other people as well. I haven't used them in close to a year now (mainly because they were unreliable and placed to many restrictions regarding how much volume they would grade). Regarding the category. Ebays sportscard chatboard leader actually dealt with every single issue discussed. They said that there is not enough cut outs to have there own category per year and they also said that as long as the cut outs do not say they are cards than they do not violate the Ebay TOS. The post went further to say that they can be listed in the sportscard category. I personal dont card what category I can or cannot list and if they had a cut out category I would be more than willing to post there. I sometimes list in other tangential categories such as memorabilia and even paper ect. As far as ethics are concerned, ethics does carry a higher standard than the law but I do not believe selling something they want is unethical. What is more unethical, denying someone the right to purchase an authenticad cut out for $50 because they dont want to blow $1500 on a graded piece of cardboard or selling them the cut out for $50. I dont buy your argument that everyone thinks my items are cards. Despite the obvious fact THAT I STATE MY ITEMS ARE NOT CARDS I offer a refund for unsatified customers for most of my items. In addition my feedback rating is 99%. So in order for what I am selling to be unethical you would have to say that someone should be denied the right to buy something they want to buy and that everyone reading my description is blind and cant read. The bottom line here is that there are some products that are contraversial and people will always take issue with. Used cars for example. There are so many complaints on misrepresention on the condition of cars somepeople think they should be banned. Now matter what I say in my description or title (and believe me at times I have tried many different things to be as clear as possible) the many Card dealers will never want me to sell anything because they think it "pollutes" the market with "inferior" crap. The funny thing is that many investors say the same think about sportscards as an investment and that the book value publishers are engaging in a racket to give a percieved value on what amounts to a piece of cardboard printed in massive quantities by corporations in order to make a profit. I personally think people should be able to buy what they want and sellers should be able to sell it to them.

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Posted By: MW

Roy,

First let me say that there is a very clear difference between "pieces of cardboard" that were manufactured and distributed through a variety of commercial means and intended to be used as "trading cards", and taking copyrighted material from the same time period, disassembling it, and deceptively marketing it in such a way as to confuse baseball card collectors on eBay. But I think you already know this.

Also, the problem with the sales of used cars is not with the vehicle itself -- it is with the SALESMEN WHO MISREPRESENT THEM. Inanimate objects such as used automobiles or scraps removed from a 1917 Spalding baseball guide are not controversial. It is those individuals who SELL THEM IN A DECEPTIVE MANNER that create the controversy (and in many cases, derision).

Next, your contention that you would be willing to list your "cutouts" in a separate and distinct category appears disingenuous -- I find it exceedingly difficult to believe that putting your newspapers and magazine scraps in just any old eBay category would be satisfactory to you. I think it's pretty obvious that when you put your manufactured scrapbook handiwork in the BASEBALL CARD categories (particularly pre-1930), several predictable objectives are achieved:

1. You receive more traffic/views per item as compared to topical alternatives.
2. The ambiguity of what you sell confuses many beginning and some intermediate BASEBALL CARD collectors.
3. You defraud collectors by marketing relatively worthless scraps as baseball collectibles that are "graded"; a condition whereby your snake oil snippets closely resemble baseball cards that have been LEGITIMATELY reviewed and encapsulated by a trusted grading company. This similarity between what has value and what does not creates further confusion for those with litte hobby savvy or who have an untrained eye.

Yes, it is true that you now have a tiny disclaimer with the phrase:

"The main item/s being offered here are not cards but "paper stock cut outs" i.e., memorabilia that has been professionally cut, authenticated, and graded by the specified grading company,"

...but that does not preclude the fact that you still REFUSE to tell customers exactly what they are buying. For instance, whenever you sell your "1938 Goudey Joe DiMaggio Rookies" if you plainly and succinctly wrote that you are selling individuals pages taken from disassembled 1938 Goudey Big League Baseball Movie Flip Books, you WOULD NOT RECEIVE ANY BIDS.

Alternately, when you list any of your fake Spalding baseball cards, instead of ambiguously blurring the distinction between what you sell and LEGITIMATE Spalding baseball cards from 1926 or 1927, be honest and tell prospective buyers that they're actually bidding on cut-out pictures from Spalding baseball guides. Of course, you'd never do this because then your little parlor game would come to an end and you'd begin to lose gullible bidders because (gasp!) you'd be EDUCATING THEM about what you are actually selling. Don't believe me? Be forthright, make your auctions public (not private) and try it.

That being said, what don't you actually try to buy and sell vintage sports cards like the rest of us? Go to some major conventions or construct a website that attracts sellers of vintage baseball cards. It's not that difficult. Instead of wasting two-thirds of your listing fees on worthless scraps that don't sell or throwing away all those 19.95 featured category charges, trying doing something honest and contributing positively to the hobby. It wouldn't at all surprise me if, after buying something like a 1933 Goudey Set and breaking it, you'd realize much higher profit margins than you do now. Try it. It might grow on you.

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Posted By: ROy Huff

Wrong. Actually I listed some of the Babe Ruth flip cards graded by PRO a few months back and specifically stated there was taken from flip books and it didn't effect the price at all. If anything I sold them at a higher price. My items are not sold in a deceptive manner my items are accurately described. You assertion seems to suggest the the item itself is deceptive and to that I would say no. That assertion again seems to suggest you think someone should be forced to waste $1500 when they could have a low cost alternative for $50 becuase you think the item itself is deceptive. I will state this again and you seem to be proving my point, no matter how I describe my items I will get grumpy sporstcard competitors. Again on the categories, believe what you like. I list in several categories and am not opposed to listing in similar categories. Give me a category and whatch me post. As far as selling Goudey sets goes, I personally like the cut outs. I think they look much cooler. But I guess that is a matter of opinion.

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Posted By: MW

Actually I listed some of the Babe Ruth flip cards graded by PRO a few months back and specifically stated there was taken from flip books and it didn't effect the price at all.

You know why? Because PRO is a more legitimate grading company than AAA, NASA or the one you're using now. And that's a pretty sad statement.


You assertion seems to suggest the the item itself is deceptive and to that I would say no.

Actually, I'm claiming the opposite. It is the MANNER IN WHICH YOU LIST YOUR PAPER SCRAPS that is deceptive. But again, I suspect you already know that.

And no Roy, what you sell is not a "low cost" alternative. It is a high-cost rip-off.


I list in several categories and am not opposed to listing in similar categories. Give me a category and whatch me post.

OK. For the next month, don't list anything in any of the Baseball card categories. List your items in Home > All Categories > Crafts > Scrapbooking where they belong.

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Posted By: martindl

A slightly different perspective.

While personally I'm tired of seeing the pre-1930 cards category jammed up with these non-cards, its not an illogical place to put them. Given that the target audience is baseball/sports collectors, asking that these things be posted in scrapbooking doesn't make sense, however, it would make sense to suggest a sports category for non-cards, say

> Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Other Sports Memorabilia > Other

If I go for a minute with Roys contention that he's not trying to deceive in the descriptions, then what i don't understand is why many items carry BIN's and very high BIN's at that. While BIN's don't always accurately reflect the value of the object, they are typically representative of the value e.g. a low BIN points to the item having a low value, while a high BIN points to the item having a high value. There are always people who set the market, but $795 for a page out of a Spalding guide is just plain trying to mislead people.

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Posted By: runscott

As far as your claim that it was "a friend" or that they charged you too much, that would be like me saying:

"well, yes, Mom and Dad did happen to live in the same house with me as I was growing up, but that was a coincidence....and Mom actually grew that marijuana...then ripped me off with high-priced wet weed."

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Posted By: jay behrens

Scott, ROTFLMFAO!!!

Roy, just because your description may be accurate in a technical sense doesn't mean that it is clear as to what the item actually is. It's like a legal document. You need a translator to put into simple English so that everyone can what you are selling or what is written in a legal document. Sa for a catagory, your item belong a memorablia or misc catagory sicne they are obviously, adn you have even stated so, not cards. So they have no business what so ever being in a card catagory.

By the way Roy, I havea really hard time believe you were charge $8 per slab for this grading service. Screwdowns and pop rivets are a lot cheaper than the cases and sonic welders used by REAL grading companies.

Jay

I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Wierd, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in.

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Posted By: dennis

why is this guy coming on this board and defending the garbage he sells.who's he trying to fool...HIMSELF

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Posted By: bcornell

why is this guy coming on this board and defending the garbage he sells.who's he trying to fool...HIMSELF

Because, despite his claims otherwise, he knows he's wrong and is hypersensitive about criticism. Check out how he always leaves retaliatory negatives for anyone who buys his junk and lets him have it.

The most laughable claim he makes is that he's a "libertarian". If that's the alternative to laws, give me a police state.

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Posted By: runscott

He also lives under an iceberg: http://www.angelfire.com/biz3/royhuff/

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Posted By: J Levine

Roy,

Wondering if you had a website or phone number for your new grading company, vintage sports authority...I would love to talk to them about grading and check some serial numbers.

Thanks in advance,

Joshua

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Posted By: Anonymous

TTT