The worst news a collector could possibly hear

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Posted By: tbob

In checking with GAI, my shipment of around 20 graded E98s was shipped on October 15th but never arrived. UPS shows it started at Laguna Hills, CA on 10-15 and arrived at Little Rock, AR on 10-26 where it was scanned as having arrived but never scanned as having departed. Apparently it has set in Little Rock for 18 days (if I am lucky and it wasn't stolen by an employee).
Good God, how much fun

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Posted By: tbob

UPS will now start an investigation. The interesting thing is why it took 11 days for the package to get from CA to Arkansas in the first place.
One of the cards was a Clarke with Old Put back stamp. Based on its rarity, it should be easy to spot if anyone ever tries to sell one, either in a GAI slab or raw (cracked out of the holder).

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Posted By: PASJD

What a nightmare. I have never had anything of that magnitude happen but I have had cards being shipped to me lost or ripped out of their envelopes and I sympathize completely. Maybe you will get lucky and it just got misplaced at a UPS facility somehow.

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Posted By: T206Collector

Last month, I purchased 5 T206 cards I needed for my collection off of ebay, including a Huggins portrait card. The seller sent them registered mail, and the USPS had a record of them being delivered to my building, but my doorman had no record of the USPS having signed for the delivery. My cards were both delivered and never delivered at the same time. Since I was only out of pocket about $60, I have just chosen to move on (as opposed to interplead the USPS against my doorman). But, I do entertain a fantasy that one day I will come home and be greeted by the 5 cards I did spend money on once upon a time...

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Although it takes more time I really think Registered US mail is the best way to go. I never use UPS as I have had too many bad experiences with them. I use Fed Ex for all expedited delivery since I have a separate insurance policy.

Sorry that has happened.

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Posted By: tbob

What really ticks me off is I used USPS Registered Mail to send them to GAI but I don't recall GAI telling me I had the option of having them sent back to me that way. I am not thrilled with UPS either, they delight in tossing boxes of graded cards in our front flower gardens or behind bushes and not leaving a notice that they delivered anything. This time they didn't even have a chance to lose it as it was probably stolen by their own employee.

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Posted By: jay behrens

And people wonder I why I despise UPS. There is nothing that pathetic worthless POS company can do to ever win me back a customer. At least they are claiming to investigate. They didn't even offer me that even when I showed that there was strong prbability that one of their employees was responsible for the disappearances. They just handed me a check and told me to go away, that's what insurance is for.

UPS lost more of my packages in a 3 month period than the USPS has lost since 1981.

Jay

I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in.

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Posted By: quan

i can definitely sympathize with you right now...i had my first mishap with usps recently when a package was ripped and a scarce e105 wagner throwing variation was lost. nothing compared to your batch of e98s but the hurt and anger is still the same. i find the best method is still usps and registered mail, where i work we've lost our fair share of ups and fedex packages.

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

Hope your cards are found and returned to you soon. Still, allow me to opine that yours is not the worst news a collector can hear. That would be, IMHO, "No sir, we have no leads on finding the more than 3/4 of your uninsured pre-war collection that was stolen from your house October 20th, and we do not expect that those cards will ever be recovered". These are essentially the words I've been told

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Posted By: Anonymous

In Transit -
On Time
Sched. Delivery: Nov 15, 2004
Shipped to: WEST DUNDEE, IL, US
Service Type: GROUND


Your package is in the UPS system and is on time with a scheduled delivery date of Nov 15, 2004.

it's 5:45 pm now and i'm waiting for the ups man.it is dark outside so i haven't looked in the bushes or asked the neighbors if he left it there.WHY would any seller use UPS???? SORRY TO HEAR ABOUT THE YOUR LOST SHIPMENT BUT, THE WORST IS THE STOLEN CARDS.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

send me the UPS tracking number via email and I'll see if I can help out.......

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

why my recent GAI submission is taking soooooooooo long (should have been here last week)!?!? I know there are seven board members awaiting the scans of the E93 Cobb as soon as they arrive (if they arrive). Really sorry to hear this Tbob!

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Well if it looks like @#!% then it must be %#!@. I suppose GAI has an account with them. For pick up service they are far more reasonable than any of the other companies.

Bob, I hope at a minimum you had indicated appropriate values for the cards and I assume that GAI would have insured it for that value. Still would be depressing to lose the cards.

I am glad I live close to 2 of the 3 grading companies as I can drive my cards down and handle this on my own.

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Posted By: Dan

I recently made a $500 card purchase and the item was supposed to have been delivered to my home, however, it was not signed for it was simply "left" on my front porch. I have kids all over my neighborhood, as far as I know they used it for a soccer ball or something worse. Needless to say the cards never showed, however, UPS did pay to reimburse me for the total loss. I was paid within a few weeks.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I feel for ya brother, I really do.

I've not yet had anything lost in transit, but I did once have a card that had shipped via USPS returned to me in a shattered PSA case with a tire track on the envelope. Have you considered having all packages delivered to your office? 0

Todd, no insurance??? Ouch. Anything of note we should be watching for on the black market? Everyone, please note that you can get a policy fairly cheaply and put your mind at ease from the financial perspective at least. The emotional toll that losing some of my collection would take is much worse and cannot be prevented. I keep my sentimental stuff in a safe deposit box.

I had a collection burgled once; spent the next few days going from card store to card store checking inventory for my cards. Needless to say, I recovered quite a few that way, albeit only after twisting the arms of every store owner in town to confess as to what they had purchased and agreeing to pay them back their purchase prices rather than taking the matter to court. What a collection of scumbags.

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Posted By: Robert

Sincerely sorry that this has happened. I understand the care that you have put into that collection.

I will spare you ups horror stories, but I will say that I have had cards recovered from usps as late as 6 months later, so don't give up hope.
Keep investigating, especially with ups.

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Posted By: tbob

for the kind words of support. I told a couple of the secretaries about it today but they don't fully understand how hard it is to collect these nowadays with everyone after caramel cards and not that many out there. I had to explain it is not like picking up a Sears catalogue and ordering some more.
The Wagner was probably undervalued based on what they have been going for lately, otherwise, with the exception of the Old Put Clarke which was probably way off, I was probably pretty close on the valuations. The problem is I had a complete set and was working on color variations but some of the MIA cards are singles that had no duplicates (if you follow me). Well, if you see some Tinkers, Lajoies, Wagners, Walshs, Collins', Jennings' and an Old Put Clarke pop up on the internet, be sure and let me know. Surely the guy wouldn't be so stupid as to sell them still in their holders. Would he?

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Posted By: Julie

and over the phone they told me that there was only $100 inasurance on it from Mastro--stuff cost 1.1K...didn't know Mastro was such a cheapskate. But they DID put on the box "Must be signed for by an adult, min. 21" Guess UPS can't read. This was 3 days ago.

They once hurled a 1k PACKAGE AT MY DOOR AT 10 p.m. WITHOUT EVEN KNOCKING ON THE DOOR...

FedEx is worth it.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

UPS may deliver more packages than FedEx or the other carriers but they are also less reliable. I remember a while ago I was sent a package that needed to be delivered to me ASAP. It was sent with the highest priority that UPS offered. It was supposed to be tracked, etc. The package didn't make it and they couldn't tell me where it was or who signed for it. In any case I FedEx'd the UPS corporate headquarters and regional headquarters a letter the next day letting them know how dissatisfied I was with their service. It got their attention but it didn't get my package to me on time.

FED EX the important stuff. I'd use USPS as a secondary shipper. I wouldn't trust UPS too much. UPS used to throw packages with thousand dollar content in my backyard with my dogs.

Good luck with the E98's. Something I do is scan the vintage items I send in to be graded. This way I have a record of the items in case anything should happen to them.

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Tbob, I can fully sympathize with you. Since I started collecting I have had but one package go astray, but it was a doozy.

An Aguilitas Pop Lloyd that I had won in a Leland's auction for under $500 was lost by UPS. The card was badly stained, but nothing at all on Lloyd's face, so it was perfect for my budget. When I saw the entry below on UPS' website I knew I was screwed.


Jan 3, 2002 1:11 P.M.
SADDLEBROOK-PARAMUS, NJ
FALLOUT/MERCHANDISE MISSING; MERCHANDISE MISSING, CARTON DISCARDED


Needless to say, that card or an opportunity like it will never be seen again.

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Posted By: runscott

I took a 14 pound package to UPS the other day and they told me it would cost $38 to ship - I would have shipped anyway, except they nixed the deal because it was being sent to a P.O. box. So I took it to the post office and shipped for $11, fully insured. Same estimate as to time of arrival.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Brown will come pick up the package from you. Nobody is as competitive as the USPO through. I would say their Express Mail is lacking though. They also farm it out to Fed Ex in many cases.

I can see that UPS is a decent compromise if you are a larger business doing volume.

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Posted By: runscott

I think that some of the problems we complain about are local problems. For instance, the Fedex "home delivery" guy doesn't deliver to my home. I have similar problems with Airborne - both take packages straight to the office and don't even sign them in.

On the other hand, I now have a very good UPS delivery woman, and a really great "normal" Fedex delivery guy - the UPS lady even met me at a restaraunt once and sat there patiently while I was late arriving. So when I hear a package is being shipped to me by UPS, I'm pleased...except these new stories are kinda scaring me.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Scott.....UPS CAN'T deliver to Post Office boxes. The post office won't let them. We would, but just can't be done. Federal law prohibiting that.....although we are working on a deal to allow that......UPS will deliver to post office boxes at UPS Stores as will FedEx and all other carriers including USPS.

As for the difference in price, I'd have to know the services you were shipping. Probably Second Day Air UPS versus parcel post. Second day air includes tracking and $100 insurance and is guaranteed money back if it doesn't make it in the committed time. Parcel and Priority have no guarantees--only 'suggested' time frames. UPS also has to account for our profits/losses in our services where the post office doesn't. They lose TONS of money in parcel post and in priority mail but help subsidize it through the 37 cents first class stamp.

I understand problems with UPS and other carriers are out there. UPS carries about 14 million packages a day on a normal day and about 22 million during the Thanksgiving/Christmas timeframe. Fedex is about 4 million and 10 million during those timeframes.

Regardless of what you think, UPS and FedEx have FAR superior numbers as far as on-time deliveries, damages, and loss than does the USPS. If you haven't experienced that, then you're lucky. UPS has better numbers than FedEx does as well but there's a perception that FedEx created with the 'absolutely positively' commercials years ago. Fortunately, in all the surveys by Fortune, Business Week and other magazines, UPS is far and away above Fedex in reputation.

The USPS also gives volume to UPS between California and Hawaii and you will likely see that expanded to where UPS is carrying more Priority and Express Mail volume down the road. There's lots of competition out there but also some carriers working together to reduce costs for customersn and utilize assets better.

If you have specific UPS problems, like Tbob's, let me know via email and I'll try to help out. Just like everyone else out there, we have problem employees too. Always caution people on labelling to ensure it is not really easy to spot what is inside the package. Something from the Gold & Silver Exchange to Dan's Pawn Shop would likely be more at risk than another package.

Regardless of the problems noted in this thread, UPS claims for both Loss and Damage shipments are down for last 3 years in a row and continue to decline. New automated scanning systems will cause that to decrease even more dramatically in next 6 years.

Best of luck on whomever you ship with...........

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Posted By: runscott

...the cheapest rate they had available. They stuck it on a scale, asked for a zip code, and gave me a price. UPS is competitive when you are looking for the same services as USPS registered mail, for light-weight items; otherwise, I gather you are paying for conveniences that I personally don't need. In fact, I almost always use UPS rather than registered US Mail, mainly because I don't like having to use that brown paper tape so they can stamp those red circles all over it.

The Post Office thing didn't really bother me, as I should have remembered that. Normally I would have taken that item to the post office, but I just assumed UPS would be cheaper for large items rather than the other way around.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

$38 for a 14 pound ground package just doesn't seem right.........I checked a 14 pound package from Louisville (40299) to (90210) and it was $12.00+. Second day air was $41.00. Maybe they quoted you the wrong price. Also....did you go to a UPS Store or the UPS Center? The UPS Stores are independently owned but now charge about the exact same price as UPS Centers for shipping.......

For everyone.....a good site to compare pricing is www.iship.com. You can put in origin/destination info and select weight and it will give you options by delivery day and price. Mostly for UPS/FedEx/USPS but it's a good comparison on pricing/time in transit.

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Posted By: Tbob

Well the shipment tracking number shows "IN TRANSIT" on the UPS webpage but shows it was scanned in at Little Rock but never scanned out. A tracer has been started and an investigation commenced.
I am getting a little put out with GAI. I realize I am not Bill Mastro or David Bryan or any of the big shipping card magnates but damn, I have sent several grading orders their way and I can't even get a call-back? You would think that a company that claimed to be consumer friendly would go out of their way to help me find the package and indeed UPS has told me I have to go through GAI to find out any information, but I am becoming frustrated. 5K is 5K and this is beginning to wear on me.

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Posted By: leon

I know we have hashed this out many times but here is my experience. I HATE going to the USPS offices. The lines in Dallas always suck. Here let me say it just once more...I HATE THE USPS post offices. I always use UPS for shipping from my office and, knock on wood, have had no problems in hundreds of shipments. I use the other guys (Fedex) to do expedited delivery. I am sure my company has it's hands in both of those pockets so my best rates are what I just described. Under any circumstance DO NOT go to a UPS store for a good deal...go there for the convenience or whatever but don't go there for a "best" price. Somehow I think the Fedex/Kinko's deal is going to be the same way. If UPS and FEDEX stores could get the convenience AND price down....now then we would have something. Did I mention I hate the USPS?.....later

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

the soon to be owner of a UPS store, I gotta respond.......the UPS Stores got a 'bad' name when they were Mail Boxes ETC because they charged 40-60% higher rates than published UPS rates. After UPS purchased the parent franchise company, they tested dropping the rates to nearly that of the normal UPS counters. They dropped the price that the independent UPS Store franchisees paid and now the shipping portion of the expenses are comparable as the UPS Customer Counters. Where you pay WAY more is on packing services. But they're just that.....services. However, if it's packed by someone at the UPS Store, you won't have to worry about claims. They will pay automatically and the odds are it will be packed better. You will pay something similar at a Fedex/Kinkos or Finkos as they're being called in the industry now.....but you won't get better service like you will at an independently owned UPS Store. The person that owns the UPS Store pays UPS a franchise fee and makes a percentage of the UPS Shipping.

There are still some MBE stores out there that still charge the inflated rates as do the pak'n'ship's and other Authorized Shipping Outlets. You shouldn't see big differences between published rates at UPS.com or iship.com and what you'd pay at the UPS Store. So, if you pack it yourself, it's a better deal because the UPS Stores are typically closer and MANY more in a city than the actual UPS customer counters.

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Posted By: petecld

Based on what I've learned about the shipping processes from the post office and overnight shippers....Registered mail via the USPS is the safest way to ship boxes worth large amounts of $$$.

Granted not the fastest route but with lots of money involved speed is #2 on my priority list.

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Posted By: honus3415

.....small packages.

Normally with carriers you are charged for shipping by an items weight. Might I suggest when shipping that you take up as much SPACE for your shipments as you can without greatly increasing that expense. Bigger packages are harder to loose (steal).

I ship every item USPS Priority...... IN the free 12"x14"x3" boxes that are provided at the PO.

Overkill for a one holdered card? Not if the card is worth $100+.

The "annoying size" makes it a more difficult target than smaller envelopes\boxes that I would dare guess 95%+ of the missing items are shipped in. Most lost shipments are in small containers hardly bigger than the order itself. I've never had a problem shipping cards this way (knock on my Honus Wagner mini-bat)...and I've probably shipped through some of the "seedier" areas of the country (NYC, LA....).

Cost (excluding insurance) is about $5.00 with delivery confirmation, possibly more for multiple items.

Added bonus...item has to be handed off (signed for) when postally insured for $100+....you get it in YOUR hands and not left laying by a garage door. I require insurance on all items over $100, a small price to pay for the "peace of mind". Although collecting for a loss might be a different story...I can't say....but then its probably a pain with "collectibles" no matter who the carrier is.

I have had several items not get to me, but as I recall all those were with UPS or "non-Priority" mail.

Not saying this is a cure-all but I honestly think it greatly helps.

Disclaimer: Possibly not practical for you high volume dealers as I find it challenging taking more than 5-6 of these boxes to the PO at a time.

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Posted By: Tbob

I know this is probably a thread which is becoming a little stale to anyone but me, sorry about that, but I just wanted to let all the great collector friends I have who either posted here or the many emails I received that I will be sure and give a final report when I know something definite, i.e. that the cards were stolen/lost and reimbursement made or that the package was found (not likely after 23 days from delivery at the Little Rock UPS center).
Luckily I have been able to pick up a few nice E98s here and there, a Coombs, Vaughn and Lajoie, but it is till frustrating, especialy when I think about E98s in the last 6 months which I have let slide because I had that particular color and player. Grrrrrrr.

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Posted By: Bill

This is for Leon, who obviously hates the USPS. To avoid the "long" lines at your Post Office, you can get a carrier pickup at your residence by going to www.usps.com The Post Office is the only way I ship my items and have never had a problem. Service is excellent and the prices are competitive. TBOB, sorry to hear about your disaster with UPS. I always ask the seller to use the Post Office to ship, but yesterday I won an item and they only use UPS. Hope I don't have a problem.

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Posted By: Tom

The whole key to this horry story did you take out insurance on these cards with UPS? The problem is trying to prove what the box contained. I understand the package arrived in Little Rock, but never made it out. Sure UPS is going to do or act like they doing something, but like most cases the consumer take the lost. One thing you never want to do is list the content on the outside of the box. That will raise a BIG RED FLAG evertime for someone to take what you have. Always take out insurance with the carrier to protect your investment. Sorry, about your story, but I am still dealing with mine, but just a different nature (PSA).

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Posted By: Tbob

GAI insured the contents and the package did not list on the outside what was inside, just the typical generic box and UPS shipping label.
Speaking of GAI, I have now called them 4 times, the latest being today. The guy I spoke to was sympathetic, said GAI would help out and the guy in charge of shipping there would be the one to talk to and he promised he would call this afternoon when he got back from lunch. No call. For a "customer friendly company" I am starting to get frustrated at the no email replies and no call backs the last 3 days. Not a good way to conduct business and create good-will in my opinion. I doubt anyone from GAI is readin this board and thread, but if they are, they could sure do with a little attentiveness toward their customers, especially since UPS will not deal with the designated recipient of the package, only the shipper. Since the shipper is the one who will fill out the claim forms on a lost package (that is correct isn't it Tom?) their nonchalant attitude reminds me a lot of ebay's attitude in dealing with problems- who us?

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Posted By: rich klein

I have never seen much of a line there at any time and you will like life much better.

It's about 5 minutes from your office

Rich

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Posted By: Glen V

I'm surprised at all the UPS bashing. Have you ever been to their headquarters? You might change your mind - they have one hell of a sports memorabilia display - something everyone should see. Maybe next week they'll add some E98s to it.

On a real note, a seller just got a letter from me on 11/17 postmarked 11/3. Hopefully UPS is just slow and the cards turn up. Sorry to hear abou this, and all the other people that added stories about losing cards.

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Posted By: leon

No matter what ya'll say I still will not like going to the USPS. Rich- I do go to the one in Addison and it sucks too. Sorry guys....I hate the USPS....ya'll could not have had my frusterating experiences so ya'll know not where I come from....Also, as far as USPS home pick up goes I ship everything from work so that's not really an option. If I haven't made myself clear (and this is not personal, obviously) I HATE THE USPS for shipping packages......but still use snail mail for letters everyday and 99.999% of the time that service is fine....later

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Posted By: warshawlaw

My N223 Kinney John L. Sullivan arrived from the Lipset auction safe and sound...

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Posted By: Tom

That is correct it is the shipper responsibility to file a claim lost. You stated that GAI insured the package. Do you have any proof of that? I understand your position, but sound like to me that just maybe GAI did not insurance the package as you think and that is why they are avoiding you. The reason they are avoiding you is plain and simple I bet GAI did not place any insurance on the contents. I hope you understand where I am coming from no insurance no proof and GAI is home free. When you shipped your card to GAI for grading you placed insurance on the package. When GAI finished grading the cards you requested GAI place insurance on the contents back to your home address. Well for some unknown reason when the package reached Little Rock it stopped. Here is what I what be asking myself. Why did the package stop where it did. Who possible could have an interest in the contents. Why GAI does not answer your calls. Who has the most to gain or even the possibility of losing.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

you just HATE Newman!!???!?!?!?

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Posted By: runscott

Since I always brag on the USPS, I have to admit - I am about to file my first insurance claim with them. They lost a t206 Cy Young portrait. But that's not a bad track record for as many items as I have shipped.

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Posted By: Tbob

I have proof that GAI was paid to insure the package back and the amount of insurance they were to provide, so that isn't a problem. I believe UPS will determine that a Klingon Bird of Prey beamed the package up and thus I will get paid for it eventually. If UPS does what they are supposed to do, I will have regrets about the lost cards but will be o.k. with their reimbursement. The problem is that the shipper, GAI, has today for the fourth straight day failed to return my phone call, haven't responded to a single email and act like frankly they don't give a damn, Scarlett. Since I have to go through them to get any information from UPS and they are the ones who will have to file the claim and will be the ones who get paid, it is maddening that they won't treat a good customer with any common courtesy. Did ebay buy GAI while we weren't looking?

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Posted By: tbob

Two months after the cards were graded and sent back to me and lost by UPS, I finally received my reimbursement check today from GAI. Kudos to Johnny Moe the head of shipping at GAI who was the one person at that company who cared enough to see this through. I was pretty much left to twist in the wind for a long time until John helped resolve this.
Also major thanks to Tom B. who helped with information on what was happening at UPS and all the great guys on this board who emailed condolences and support.
I hope no one else has to go through this and I will be keeping my eye open down the road for some fool to try and sell an E98 Clarke with an Old Put back stamp, not to mention the other 15 E98s which were graded by GAI although I am sure they will be popped out and sold raw. I've been able to replace most of the cards, even getting higher graded ones (although GAI never HAS told me what grades the 16 received!) except an E98 Tinker, but I sure do miss my Old Put. By the way if you want to see it, it's on page 302 of the SCD 2004 catalogue produced by Bob Lemke.
Happy holidays everyone.
tbob

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Posted By: PASJD

You should definitely insist on getting a copy of their records showing the grades and serial numbers. I wouldn't assume the thief would be smart enough to crack the cards out.

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Posted By: tbob

I will email them today about it. Based on their responses in the past, though, I won't hold my breath. For a company which purports to be "consumer/collector friendly," this has been a real eye-opener.
SGC may be a brutal grading company for caramel cards but they certainly are much easier to deal with and interact with.

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Posted By: Scott

I haven't ever dealt with GAI, but when I call SGC they work with me right there over the phone. Also, there are several board members who are "tight" with GAI - maybe they could give some direction?

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Posted By: tbob

doesn't work very well, I have found out to my chagrin, Scott. The head of shipping, Johnny Moe, is good about returning calls but the others I spoke to at GAI would promise return calls and never delivered. I guess when you only have 100 or so cards graded a year, you are not a big enough fish.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

..and when I called UPS to find out when it would be delivered (ground), they said NO EXTRA INSURASNCE had been taken out on the package, besides the $100 UPS provides for every package. Sure enough, when the package came, the guy handed it to me, without asking for a signature. That still doesn't PROVE Mastro didn't insure it, but--what would I have done if the mouse-nibbled J Hall photo and the undergraded Fan Craze Keeler had never arrived? Punt, that's what!

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Posted By: Scott

I have never understood why board members use GAI - could you explain? This is a serious question, as I respect you as a card collector and know you wouldn't make a grader decision frivolously. I understand PSA, as their holders bring big re-sell bucks and people like to play with the registry thing, and SGC as they are the most knowledgeable in the hobby, but what's the appeal of GAI?