SGC - say it aint so

[Fred]

Totally missed this - it appears to be a recently graded card. These are the type of errors that drive you nuts.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/15535057052...Bk9SR8jJ2uS1YQ

[BobbyStrawberry]

Swing and a miss!

[Eric72]

We all have our relative strengths and weaknesses. Admittedly, I know very little about Nineteenth Century cards.

What's the error? Including 1886 on the flip?

[ullmandds]

I presume the advertising on the bottom was trimmed off

[Eric72]

.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I presume the advertising on the bottom was trimmed off

Yup, Pete, exactly the same thing I first noticed as well. How that card gets anything other than an "A" is beyond me.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Yes, the bottom appears to be trimmed above where there should be two lines of text. The "1886-87" labeling is what they use for these, as I've received several back with the same designation.

[Eric72]

Thanks for the info. Not my wheelhouse, so nearly everything is something new to learn.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Thanks for the info. Not my wheelhouse, so nearly everything is something new to learn.

👍 I've learned so much from people on here, I try to offer something back when i can... here is one from the same subset that shows the advertising lines:

[BobC]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

�� I've learned so much from people on here, I try to offer something back when i can... here is one from the same subset that shows the advertising lines:

Matthew,

You are so right. If you have ever collected Old Judge cards, you'd know in an instant that bottom advertising section has always been considered as part of a complete card, and that in the past all recognized TPGs have always considered an OJ card with that bottom part cut off as only being Authentic, at best. It is technically a trimmed card. Just pick up a copy of Jay, Joe, and Ron's book on the Goodwin/Old Judge cards. It is pretty much accepted throughout the hobby as the bible on that particular subject.

Nice Silver Flint card by the way.

(And no, I don't get a kickback or anything for helping to promote how good their book is. So no troll comments, please.)

[Rad_Hazard]

Yikes, that poor Darling...

Not that it's any excuse, but that could have been a reholder. And, IF it was, that means SGC stood behind their past product, for better or worse.

PS - Matthew, I will take that Silver Flint off your hands...please and thank you .

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

Yikes, that poor Darling...

Not that it's any excuse, but that could have been a reholder. And, IF it was, that means SGC stood behind their past product, for better or worse.

PS - Matthew, I will take that Silver Flint off your hands...please and thank you .

I think you are right about it being a reholder. Cert# says it was graded in 2017, and I think SGC went to the current all-black slabs/flip in 2018.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I think you are right about it being a reholder. Cert# says it was graded in 2017, and I think SGC went to the current all-black slabs/flip in 2018.

That would mean they they missed it TWICE. I didn't realize SGC went to this new holder back in 2018, for some reason I thought it was more recent than that, but I don't keep up with those details. Good to know though.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by BobC

Matthew,

You are so right. If you have ever collected Old Judge cards, you'd know in an instant that bottom advertising section has always been considered as part of a complete card, and that in the past all recognized TPGs have always considered an OJ card with that bottom part cut off as only being Authentic, at best. It is technically a trimmed card. Just pick up a copy of Jay, Joe, and Ron's book on the Goodwin/Old Judge cards. It is pretty much accepted throughout the hobby as the bible on that particular subject.

Nice Silver Flint card by the way.

(And no, I don't get a kickback or anything for helping to promote how good their book is. So no troll comments, please.)

Thanks, Bob - yes, I love that book

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by Fred

That would mean they they missed it TWICE. I didn't realize SGC went to this new holder back in 2018, for some reason I thought it was more recent than that, but I don't keep up with those details. Good to know though.

That’s my point. If it is a reholder they missed it the first time and stuck by their product a second time. For better or worse. Unlike the dumpster fire that is PSA. That being said, it was quite the initial swing and miss.

[Orioles1954]

Do you think they gave it a numerical grade because it is miscut top-to-bottom?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Do you think they gave it a numerical grade because it is miscut top-to-bottom?

That was my guess but I don't know the issue.

[Fred]

The bottom part of the card is trimmed off. There are many OJs like this but all are accepted as being "trimmed". The TPGs usually give the card an "A" rating when the trim has been made.

I have one or two OJs in TPG holders that have the bottom trimmed off with an assigned numerical grade. For the most part, I usually don't collect the OJs in this condition, but since the price was right I purchased them.

It'd be nice if the TPGs made a few less errors. I used to save the pictures of really poor TPG grading errors. Maybe we'll start a thread some day and have people post pictures of the TPG errors they've come across.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Do you think they gave it a numerical grade because it is miscut top-to-bottom?

You're absolutely right there is what seems to be a lot of extra card on the top edge. But then look at the Silver Flint card that Matthew posted in Post #9, and you'll quickly see about how much of the bottom part is actually missing. There is way too much bottom missing to ever be accounted for by the excess top part of the card.

Plus, these OJ cards are actual photos basically attached to cardboard backings. And for as early as they are, you don't normally find them with what I or others would term as a miscut. I honestly do not know their exact printing process, but don't believe these were created using sheets like T206s and more modern day cards are, that could then be mishandled in the cutting machines, creating the top-to-bottom, and side-to-side miscuts, along with the diamond cuts, that are prevalent in many sets. Otherwise, I think you'd see a lot more miscut OJs out in the wild.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Fred

The bottom part of the card is trimmed off. There are many OJs like this but all are accepted as being "trimmed". The TPGs usually give the card an "A" rating when the trim has been made.

I have one or two OJs in TPG holders that have the bottom trimmed off with an assigned numerical grade. For the most part, I usually don't collect the OJs in this condition, but since the price was right I purchased them.

It'd be nice if the TPGs made a few less errors. I used to save the pictures of really poor TPG grading errors. Maybe we'll start a thread some day and have people post pictures of the TPG errors they've come across.

I'm with you Fred, I don't normally collect trimmed OJs, but do have some since at the end of the day, they are still OJs. LOL And also like you, have seen some that should not have been given numeric grades due to being trimmed, but got one anyway. Hard to not pick them up, regardless of such issues, when as you said, "the price was right". My personal favorite OJs are the ones that are severely downgraded because of some damage, scrapbook glue/residue, or even writing, on their blank backs. If there was ever a set that the mantra "Buy the card and not the holder." applied to, it is the N172 OJ set IMO.

[Fred]

See post #9. That is a full card. The entire front part of the card is an albumen photo that is adhered to a stiff backing.

Something else to look for in OJs are the "skinned" cards. The photos can be removed from the backing. What is left is a very thin photo. After the card is skinned, it can be affixed to a different cardboard backing which collectors will call "rebacked" cards.

All of those defects count against the OJ when being evaluated for sale/trade.

What could happen with this trimmed/numerically graded card is that someone that doesn't understand the OJ will purchase it thinking it's a "2".

Perhaps a couple years go by and the collector decides that they want to sell the card. People that know it's trimmed will not accept it as a "2" and the collector will most likely will be told it's trimmed. If the collector is a good person, they'll disclose the problem to someone that doesn't know OJs, but then that collector will probably be selling it at a loss.

Is that when these TPG guarantees are supposed to protect the collector? Can they go back to SGC and let them know they purchased it thinking it was a "2" and now it's dropped in value by 50% because it's really only an "A" card?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Fred

See post #9. That is a full card. The entire front part of the card is an albumen photo that is adhered to a stiff backing.

Something else to look for in OJs are the "skinned" cards. The photos can be removed from the backing. What is left is a very thin photo. After the card is skinned, it can be affixed to a different cardboard backing which collectors will call "rebacked" cards.

All of those defects count against the OJ when being evaluated for sale/trade.

What could happen with this trimmed/numerically graded card is that someone that doesn't understand the OJ will purchase it thinking it's a "2".

Perhaps a couple years go by and the collector decides that they want to sell the card. People that know it's trimmed will not accept it as a "2" and the collector will most likely will be told it's trimmed. If the collector is a good person, they'll disclose the problem to someone that doesn't know OJs, but then that collector will probably be selling it at a loss.

Is that when these TPG guarantees are supposed to protect the collector? Can they go back to SGC and let them know they purchased it thinking it was a "2" and now it's dropped in value by 50% because it's really only an "A" card?

Great points and question Fred.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Do you think they gave it a numerical grade because it is miscut top-to-bottom?

I think it's because it was trimmed 140 years ago and the remaining corners show consistent rounding on all four sides.
That, and they failed to measure it against a spec.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I think it's because it was trimmed 140 years ago and the remaining corners show consistent rounding on all four sides.
That, and they failed to measure it against a spec.

Good point - consistent rounding of corners gives the appearance of an aged card, however the TPGs should be aware that the bottom of the card should have the Goodwin information (and more in some cases) and that without it, the card is most likely trimmed. I don't know for a fact if the following is true, but it seems believable that the bottom portions of OJs were trimmed off to remove indications that the card had anything to do with tobacco products.

Sizing of OJs is all over the map. Most seem to fall within a certain range but there are many that are taller, narrower, shorter or wider than the "average" card. It's definitely an interesting "set" of cards. If you handle enough of them, you get a good idea on figuring out if the OJ is altered. I don't know how TPGs operate so I don't know if certain graders are designated for grading certain older issues of cards. It'd be wise if the TPGs didn't arbitrarily give any card to any grader to determine the condition of the card.

[Steve D]

deleted

[Steve D]

Here's the trimmed card, with a full-sized one:



Steve

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Fred

Good point - consistent rounding of corners gives the appearance of an aged card, however the TPGs should be aware that the bottom of the card should have the Goodwin information (and more in some cases) and that without it, the card is most likely trimmed. I don't know for a fact if the following is true, but it seems believable that the bottom portions of OJs were trimmed off to remove indications that the card had anything to do with tobacco products.

Sizing of OJs is all over the map. Most seem to fall within a certain range but there are many that are taller, narrower, shorter or wider than the "average" card. It's definitely an interesting "set" of cards. If you handle enough of them, you get a good idea on figuring out if the OJ is altered. I don't know how TPGs operate so I don't know if certain graders are designated for grading certain older issues of cards. It'd be wise if the TPGs didn't arbitrarily give any card to any grader to determine the condition of the card.

I agree John has a good point as well, but I'm with you Fred that a TPG with any reasonable knowledge and experience should know and realize that a significant bottom part of that card is missing. Obviously, some type of human error on the part of the grader, maybe due to inexperience, but you would think there should be some type or form of quality control review till they weren't so inexperienced then, right?

If I was working quality control and had that card, with that grade, going past me, it would have taken about 1 second or less for me to recognize the error and send it back to be corrected. I imagine that when it comes to vintage, especially pre-war cards, there are many members on here that could do just as well, and some likely better, at grading such cards than the employed graders these TPGs actually have doing it now.

[Leon]

A PSA one I own. Not mislabeled....
.

[boneheadandrube]

So this is what, a $100-$125 mistake?

[Fred]

For a common card like this, the $100-$125 difference wouldn't be too far off at today's valuations, but it could be more.

The seller has a (IMHO) very high asking price ($524.95) for a common OJ graded "2". I wouldn't pay $100 for it if it were in a correctly labeled "A") slab.

If that card was in the condition (same corner rounding and wear) it is in without the cut off portion and graded a "2" (like the card in post #26), then I'd guess someone might buy it for a couple hundred bucks (maybe more if they're a Chicago fan).

It would be interesting to see how SGC would handle it if was returned to them for being incorrectly labeled/graded.

Perhaps that'll be the next thread I start - "grading errors". I don't mean errors in one persons subjectivity compared to another. It would be labeling errors that could lead to people taking a loss on the card if they bought it and couldn't resell it. If I start that thread then I'll be sure to black out the cert numbers because I'd hate to see the TPG de-cert the card without the person possessing it knowing about the de-cert. Now that wouldn't happen, now would it?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Now that I see the larger image I would say it's rebacked (a long time ago) as well. Look at how high the back paper sticks up over the top of the photo.

My guess is trimmed first, and later rebacked.

It may even be rebacked on original stock, as it looks good, but I don't have any other explanation for the mounting stock sticking up over the photo. Makes me wonder if it was done on purpose, but not to deceive? someone who had something against smoking stripping the card, cutting the ad and then remounting it?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Fred

For a common card like this, the $100-$125 difference wouldn't be too far off at today's valuations, but it could be more.

The seller has a (IMHO) very high asking price ($524.95) for a common OJ graded "2". I wouldn't pay $100 for it if it were in a correctly labeled "A") slab.

If that card was in the condition (same corner rounding and wear) it is in without the cut off portion and graded a "2" (like the card in post #26), then I'd guess someone might buy it for a couple hundred bucks (maybe more if they're a Chicago fan).

It would be interesting to see how SGC would handle it if was returned to them for being incorrectly labeled/graded.

Perhaps that'll be the next thread I start - "grading errors". I don't mean errors in one persons subjectivity compared to another. It would be labeling errors that could lead to people taking a loss on the card if they bought it and couldn't resell it. If I start that thread then I'll be sure to black out the cert numbers because I'd hate to see the TPG de-cert the card without the person possessing it knowing about the de-cert. Now that wouldn't happen, now would it?

Interesting question Fred. My understanding has always been that a TPG with a grade guarantee doesn't do anything for the person that actually submitted the card. So if you took a card you originally had graded back to be re-holdered by the same TPG that originally graded it, and they now said it was incorrectly over graded the first time, they aren't paying you anything. The grading guarantee is supposedly only available to a subsequent owner as I've always been led to understand it, right?

So do you, or anyone else, know exactly how that works then. Say you bought this graded OJ card that says it is a 2, but you know it is only Authentic. Can you go back to the TPG and demand the difference in value between the correct and incorrect grades, or have them buy the card from you at the improperly higher graded current value? And maybe even more importantly, do any TPGs then ever ask for proof that you actually bought the incorrectly graded card first, and maybe want further proof of what you paid for it? And if so, then possibly factor all into what they may or may not then decide to pay someone if they do honor their grading guarantee?

Reason for my asking is that if the TPGs don't require actual proof of purchase, and what you paid for the incorrectly graded card, say you got an incorrectly graded card years ago, one for which the value has skyrocketed since you got it. If the TPG that incorrectly graded it did honor their grading guarantee and pay you the value difference, or buy the card outright, based on the card's then current value, they are basically paying you for the appreciated difference over the years. So why wouldn't they do the same thing then for the original submitter of the card for grading if they didn't find out/realize the card had been mis-graded till years later, and after the price had skyrocketed? Seems like this idea to not give the original submitter anything is an intentional BS clause, probably thought up by some attorneys who helped the TPG write their agreements and contracts. If the original owner/submitter wants to have any chance of getting any of the appreciated value he may now be cheated out of by the TPG who incorrectly graded the card to begin with, he basically can only do so by finding an unknowing buyer to cheat by having them pay him for the card based on the incorrect grade. Which now puts the original owner/submitter at risk for getting in trouble as a fraudulent seller. I can see a TPG counting on many people not wanting to do this to someone else, and thus keep the TPG from having to now pay anyone for their earlier mistake.

But then there are the original owners/submitters that don't give a rat's ass, and find a mark.....errrr, buyer. And then, what really happens if down the road the new owner goes back to the TPG after discovering the grading error, I've heard the TPGs will often initially refuse to honor their grading guarantee and tell the owner to simply go back to the party they bought the card from first. In such cases, it seems the TPGs may end up paying nothing and having no seeming liability at all for their grading screw-up, by effectively putting forth a grading guarantee, which helped to lure in the customers in the first place by easing their worries as to the TPG's work, honesty, integrity, and ability to accurately grade their card and then stand behind what they've done, that in some cases ends up being nothing more than pure, worthless BS!!!

So, what would happen to someone if they had originally submitted a card for grading, and the TPG screwed up and way over graded it, and instead of trying to go back to the TPG themself, found a friend or relative to buy the mis-graded card from them for say $1, and then have the friend/relative go back to the TPG regarding their grading error, and seeking the damage in the value difference? How long can the TPGs just keep telling people to go back to the seller, or maybe refuse to acknowledge they originally mis-graded the card, while at the same time pointing to the "in our sole discretion" terminology they may have sprinkled in and throughout their contracts and agreements they had their customer sign off on?

If such a grading guarantee does not effectively pass on to each and every subsequent owner, and the TPGs cannot be counted on to live up to these guarantees, then the grading service and holders themselves are truly just meaningless, and shouldn't be counted on by anyone, ever! Because they sure as hell don't seem to always be able to be counted on and/or backed up by all the TPGs, like they're supposed to be.

[swarmee]

BobC, a couple of corrections for you.

1) PSA is the only company I'm aware of that still has a guarantee in force. So SGC would do nothing for you, or at least is not obligated to by any current policy. BGS does not have one either, and I haven't heard of any of the newer companies (CSG, FCG, TAG, etc) having one. Edited to add: There have been a couple of lawsuits against both companies anyways, because they don't have any type of guarantee, but people have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars due to their incompetence. I believe SGC was shamed into refunding their auto authentications on the T-206s because of backlash against the company, then folded their autograph authentication arm for a while. They are now certifying autos, but not sure if that is just pack-inserted cards that have been pre-certified by the card companies.

2) PSA telling buyers to go back to the submitters referred specifically to trimmed cards, not ones they misgraded accidentally (not seeing a pinhole, writing, crease, etc), because their TOS for submitters originally was to sign a form stating that the cards in the submission were all unaltered, to their own knowledge. So PSA was trusting that submitters be honest, because they know they're incompetent to generally detect alterations. But I was also the one (or at least one of them) to point this clause out to them, and recommended that they force PWCC to take all the returns rather than pay out on all the guarantees directly.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by swarmee

BobC, a couple of corrections for you.

1) PSA is the only company I'm aware of that still has a guarantee in force. So SGC would do nothing for you, or at least is not obligated to by any current policy. BGS does not have one either, and I haven't heard of any of the newer companies (CSG, FCG, TAG, etc) having one. Edited to add: There have been a couple of lawsuits against both companies anyways, because they don't have any type of guarantee, but people have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars due to their incompetence. I believe SGC was shamed into refunding their auto authentications on the T-206s because of backlash against the company, then folded their autograph authentication arm for a while. They are now certifying autos, but not sure if that is just pack-inserted cards that have been pre-certified by the card companies.

2) PSA telling buyers to go back to the submitters referred specifically to trimmed cards, not ones they misgraded accidentally (not seeing a pinhole, writing, crease, etc), because their TOS for submitters originally was to sign a form stating that the cards in the submission were all unaltered, to their own knowledge. So PSA was trusting that submitters be honest, because they know they're incompetent to generally detect alterations. But I was also the one (or at least one of them) to point this clause out to them, and recommended that they force PWCC to take all the returns rather than pay out on all the guarantees directly.

Hey John,

Thank you very much for the info. I myself do not deal with any TPG (Only did once and that was to merely get some authentication). Was not aware of various things you mentioned, but very glad to learn from someone with much more experience. Good to know.

My main point regarding TPGs having bogus guarantees is still applicable though, especially when they apparently have no guarantees at all. In fact, my point should be even more well taken. If they do not back up and stand behind what they do, and apparently have little or no liability for mistakes, errors and such, their service is pretty much, in truth, worthless. You or I could start up a TPG of our own and be just as reliable (probably better) than the major TPGs out there. Unfortunately, they and other parties/players that run and control our hobby industry already have too much money, exposure, backing, and control, along with the support of others in the industry that also make money off their services, and enrich themselves on the overall gullibility of many in the hobby, to the point that they are too well ensconced for us to expect any major changes and improvements any time soon. Sad, but true.

I've often said the hobby should be run and the rules and such set by the people that actually are in and enjoy the hobby, not by the companies and others that are really just into it to make money off those in the hobby. You can still have TPGs and such, but they don't set the rules, decide what the grading standards are according to what they want, change them as they see fit, fail miserably to stand behind what they do, along with exhibiting absolutely no desire or intent to ever be transparent and truly honest with no obvious conflicts-of-interest and bias, and actually provide something other than just profits for themselves.

Thanks again John for correcting me, and/or at least making some of what I was saying more accurate for others.

However, after looking into things a little more, apparently CSG does have a grading guaranty also.

https://www.csgcards.com/card-grading/csg-guarantee/

Having never dealt directly with CSG, or hearing/seeing any stories or news regarding their guarantee or issues being had with it, I can't speak to their guarantee and how they apply it, or how well they may live up to and honor it. I can only sincerely hope that they do live up to it, and provide something the hobby community apparently seems to not always be getting elsewhere.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by BobC

...the hobby should be run and the rules and such set by the people that actually are in and enjoy the hobby, not by the companies and others that are really just into it to make money off those in the hobby...

I think many people would resist such a move, no matter how noble the intentions. They would see it as a move towards regulating the hobby. I can hear the outcry:

"...don't want anyone telling me how to hobby..."

(yes, I realize "hobby" isn't a verb; that's just how people speaks deez dayz)

[the-illini]

It could be just me, but the photo on the rebacked card looks a little more grainy than most OJ cards I have seen

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Thanks for the info. Not my wheelhouse, so nearly everything is something new to learn.

+1 agree but I am always trying to learn

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by BobC

However, after looking into things a little more, apparently CSG does have a grading guaranty also.

Thanks for finding it. I didn't realize they did, or forgot over the years.

This is from it, in big bold letters:
"Important Limitation: Under no circumstance will compensation be paid in instances where Owner has suffered no actual damages as a result of the error in certification or in reliance on the Guarantee."

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I think many people would resist such a move, no matter how noble the intentions. They would see it as a move towards regulating the hobby. I can hear the outcry:

"...don't want anyone telling me how to hobby..."

(yes, I realize "hobby" isn't a verb; that's just how people speaks deez dayz)

Not talking about regulating the hobby for collectors at all. Talking about regulating those that supposedly provide services to the hobby and its collectors, that make money off all of us and try to tell us how the hobby should be. I imagine you do not care for graded cards that are incorrectly and inconsistently graded, or altered and doctored cards easily getting into slabs and no one seeming to stop doing business with those known to be behind that, interacting and doing business with dealers/consignees/AHs and such that are behind or support shill bidding, make false claims, push fake or altered items, and on and on and on. The group I'd like to see having the control and oversight would be made up of the actual collectors, so they would decide what the grading standards should be, who the members accept to do business with within the hobby community, and actually fulfill what the collectors want and desire, not the other way around.

Won't happen though because too many collectors themselves have profited off the actions of players in the industry, and wouldn't want to risk what they have tied up in their collections. If such a hobby group finally came to be, say a particular TPG refused to abide by the hobby organization's rules and such, and therefore were no longer recognized by the hobby. And if the hobby organization's members stayed united and quit doing business with that TPG and recognizing and trading in their slabs, everyone with cards in that TPG's slabs would likely see a sudden and tremendous drop in prices for their cards. Suddenly, all the hobby members with a major collection in that TPG's slabs would potentially be taking a big hit value/income wise, which would likely cause them to have serious second thoughts about having joined and following the hobby organization to begin with.

And the bad players would probably go on doing business on their own anyway, followed by those that don't know better, or couldn't care less, and either never joined the hobby organization as members to begin with, or dropped out of it after the fact. As long as they can continue to make some money and get what they want, and they don't really care much for ethics and integrity. Just like some not so well-liked players in the industry today seem to be doing well on their own, despite many people in the hobby no longer doing business with them.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by BobC

Not talking about regulating the hobby for collectors at all. Talking about regulating those that supposedly provide services to the hobby and its collectors, that make money off all of us and try to tell us how the hobby should be. I imagine you do not care for graded cards that are incorrectly and inconsistently graded, or altered and doctored cards easily getting into slabs and no one seeming to stop doing business with those known to be behind that, interacting and doing business with dealers/consignees/AHs and such that are behind or support shill bidding, make false claims, push fake or altered items, and on and on and on. The group I'd like to see having the control and oversight would be made up of the actual collectors, so they would decide what the grading standards should be, who the members accept to do business with within the hobby community, and actually fulfill what the collectors want and desire, not the other way around.

Won't happen though because too many collectors themselves have profited off the actions of players in the industry, and wouldn't want to risk what they have tied up in their collections. If such a hobby group finally came to be, say a particular TPG refused to abide by the hobby organization's rules and such, and therefore were no longer recognized by the hobby. And if the hobby organization's members stayed united and quit doing business with that TPG and recognizing and trading in their slabs, everyone with cards in that TPG's slabs would likely see a sudden and tremendous drop in prices for their cards. Suddenly, all the hobby members with a major collection in that TPG's slabs would potentially be taking a big hit value/income wise, which would likely cause them to have serious second thoughts about having joined and following the hobby organization to begin with.

And the bad players would probably go on doing business on their own anyway, followed by those that don't know better, or couldn't care less, and either never joined the hobby organization as members to begin with, or dropped out of it after the fact. As long as they can continue to make some money and get what they want, and they don't really care much for ethics and integrity. Just like some not so well-liked players in the industry today seem to be doing well on their own, despite many people in the hobby no longer doing business with them.

You're preaching to the choir, Reverend. However...

Again, I think many people would resist any form of regulation, even "regulating those that supposedly provide services to the hobby and its collectors."

There are those who would say eBay, PayPal, and other platforms provide a service to the hobby. There are also those who would consider it a form of regulation to lower the 1099 threshold.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Thanks for finding it. I didn't realize they did, or forgot over the years.

This is from it, in big bold letters:
"Important Limitation: Under no circumstance will compensation be paid in instances where Owner has suffered no actual damages as a result of the error in certification or in reliance on the Guarantee."

Saw that limitation as well John. So, the big question is then, what is their definition of 'damages".

Someone buys a card and pays based on the incorrect grade, and then takes it back to CSG to be re-holdered and finds out it was incorrectly graded. I assume "damages" would be the amount they overpaid for the card based on what it's correct FMV at the time of the purchase would have been, had it been properly graded to begin with. Of course, that also assumes that CSG agrees/affirms that they incorrectly graded the card to begin with. They could just re-holder it with the incorrect grade and say nothing. And you can't go to a different TPG that says the grade is wrong, because to my knowledge, NONE of the TPGs will ever recognize, affirm, or rely upon the grading opinions of any other TPGs out there, nor are they legally bound to. (Another big reason I keep saying we need one set of grading standards recognized across the entire hobby, and that ALL the TPGs are forced to follow and recognize among themselves.)

But what about an owner that goes to sell a card they've owned for a long time, and can now make a big profit on because that card's value has skyrocketed over the years. They find a potential buyer, but the potential buyer questions the grade. So the parties agree to have it reviewed. Potential buyer and seller take the card to a local show that CSG is in attendance at, and ask them to review the grade. CSG acknowledges it is incorrectly over graded, and the potential buyer backs out of the deal. So the owner, who also happens to be the one who originally submitted the card to CSG for grading, takes it back to CSG and says they just lost $XXXX of profit on the card's sale because of their grading mistake. And say the owner was counting on and really needed that money to pay for some medical expenses, or maybe college tuition for a child, or some other personal need or reason. What, if any, are the "damages" CSG would recognize and pay/reimburse the owner for? I can certainly see what the owner would view as his "damages".

It would be so much nicer if these types/kinds of guarantees/agreements weren't always so ambiguous. Makes you start to wonder if the businesses/attorneys that came up with them didn't do that intentionally all along.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Eric72

You're preaching to the choir, Reverend. However...

Again, I think many people would resist any form of regulation, even "regulating those that supposedly provide services to the hobby and its collectors."

There are those who would say eBay, PayPal, and other platforms provide a service to the hobby. There are also those who would consider it a form of regulation to lower the 1099 threshold.

I know, and agree Eric. The ones that would most be against any hobby regulations though, are most likely the same ones profiting off there not being any such regulations. And I can only imagine how much they would try to preach at, influence, or otherwise turn anyone they deal with or come in contact with through the hobby, against the idea of regulations as well. Self-preservation of one's self-interests can be a very motivating factor.

But others may be misunderstanding and overextending what I mean by "regulating the hobby". Regulations and rules for tax purposes are NOT at all what I'm talking about or proposing we may need more of. I'm only referring to those that regulate things that are an actually, integral part of the hobby itself, like card grading, TPGs, dealers, consignees, AHs, and such, that provide services to the people in the hobby community, to better insure they provide honest, accurate, unbiased, consistent, and free-of-conflict services and work to those in the hobby community. But though always hoping to be optimistic, am also a realist, and I doubt the things I'd like to see come true will happen anytime soon. LOL

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by BobC

I know, and agree Eric. The ones that would most be against any hobby regulations though, are most likely the same ones profiting off there not being any such regulations. And I can only imagine how much they would try to preach at, influence, or otherwise turn anyone they deal with or come in contact with through the hobby, against the idea of regulations as well. Self-preservation of one's self-interests can be a very motivating factor.

But others may be misunderstanding and overextending what I mean by "regulating the hobby". Regulations and rules for tax purposes are NOT at all what I'm talking about or proposing we may need more of. I'm only referring to those that regulate things that are an actually, integral part of the hobby itself, like card grading, TPGs, dealers, consignees, AHs, and such, that provide services to the people in the hobby community, to better insure they provide honest, accurate, unbiased, consistent, and free-of-conflict services and work to those in the hobby community. But though always hoping to be optimistic, am also a realist, and I doubt the things I'd like to see come true will happen anytime soon. LOL

We're on the same page. Please take my response to your post as a jab at the TPGs; it's not directed at you:


Step 1: get the grading companies to unilaterally agree NOT to slab altered cards without disclosing the alteration(s) discovered.

Step 2: buy lots of firewood, 'cause hell just froze over.

[Fred]

What does SGC stand for? I always thought it was Sportscard Guarantee Company. Maybe I've been wrong all this time. I guess it must mean Sportscard Grading Company.

I don't trust these companies very much but I'll be honest and admit I've sent hundreds of cards to both PSA and SGC in the past. I haven't sent anything in in at least 8-10 years because the pricing/fee structure based on card valuation just got a bit too much for me to keep up with.

It was interesting to deal with PSA. One time they sent back a 1971T card in really nice condition saying it had color added. I was like floored. I owned the card since the 70s and I know I didn't make any alterations to it. The card was sent in again and came back with an "8" grade. After getting a few cards back with the "OC" designation I scratched my head. Ok, the cards weren't perfectly centered but you could easily guess that they just eyeball these things. I had cards returned that I thought were OC when submitted without the OC qualifier. I never made the request of "No qualifiers" for the submissions.

I stuck more with SGC after a while because I liked the holders with the nice black contrasting.

If there was two things I liked about GAI holders it's the black background contrast (like SGC) and that little ID tag they put at the top edge of the slab (see picture below).

Regarding rebacked cards, sometimes it's not very easy to determine if an OJ was rebacked. The albumen image for the card for this thread (Darling) obviously doesn't cover the entire surface area for the backing/stiffner, but I've seen a lot of OJs like this and assumed the card was probably at the top of the albumen sheet and the cutter just missed the top edge of the sheet. I've seen it that way on bottoms and sides also and make the same assumption.

Obvious rebacked cards are easy to detect because the backing seems very different from most OJs. For examples, stock is too thick, wrong type of material/stock, the backing isn't creased or damaged even though the photo has that defect.

What would be nice if there were "industry standards" that all TPGs would adhere to. For example (one of my pet peeves), no numerical grades to cards that are hand cut or have a tab removed, like a Zeenut.

If there are no guarantees associated with the actual card grading, (cover the card owner for monetary losses due to an egregious error in grading), then the only reason I could see for a fee structure based on card value is to cover insurance and I'm going to guess that these TPGs aren't paying the amount charged for the grading to cover the insurance cost. I'm guessing they're pocketing quite a bit of that fee.

Maybe one day the TPGs will come up with an environmentally friendly material other than plastic for the slabs. Ok, just joking there. But it makes you wonder just how much plastic has been used to encapsulate all this cardboard.

[swarmee]

SGC did originally have 'Guaranty' in their name, but when they went to the tuxedo flips, they rebranded as gosgc.com and eliminated the words that SGC stood for, while also eliminating their grade guarantee.
Even before that time, when the guarantee was in effect, it was only for cards graded during the present ownership group. So when the company was sold, none of those previously graded cards were grandfathered into the guarantee, because the liability was effectively absolved during the sale.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Eric72

We're on the same page. Please take my response to your post as a jab at the TPGs; it's not directed at you:


Step 1: get the grading companies to unilaterally agree NOT to slab altered cards without disclosing the alteration(s) discovered.

Step 2: buy lots of firewood, 'cause hell just froze over.

Eric, no problem, you are definitely one of the good guys on here. I didn't look at your comments as a personal jab at all, and actually agree with what you were saying. Same thing I was basically saying about how many people won't go along with such changes because it doesn't personally benefit them, and may actually financially harm them.

And your Step 2: is definitely true. LOL Trying to get those making so much money off stuff like that to stop, is nearly impossible if the authorities can't/won't do anything. Not much else the rest of us can do.

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

That’s my point. If it is a reholder they missed it the first time and stuck by their product a second time. For better or worse. Unlike the dumpster fire that is PSA. That being said, it was quite the initial swing and miss.

Listen sgc is a great company but this is an ignorant statement. Sgc has. An entire generation of holders that they won’t guarantee to cross. The era prior to Dave buying the company where the holders have one grade. Under the old 10,20,etc system. The era where they really were lax on centering standards. So if you are going to try and pump up your favorite company by attacking their competition how about you at least be accurate with the information.

[Fred]

For clarification -

SGC will not cross over the cards in the older holders (cards graded with the 10, 20, 30, etc scale) to a new slab? Is that correct (it seemed fairly clear in the post).

Is there an easy way to determine if the cards were placed in the slabs by the old or new management? I see SGC has newer style flips. Are these new flips indicative of the new "regime" in place at SGC?

[jchcollins]

A properly graded card in a properly sealed SGC slab is still a thing of beauty, but as they continue to attempt to grow out of the britches that made them popular with vintage collectors originally, you are seeing more and more mistakes like this. Not surprising.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Fred

For clarification -

SGC will not cross over the cards in the older holders (cards graded with the 10, 20, 30, etc scale) to a new slab? Is that correct (it seemed fairly clear in the post).

Is there an easy way to determine if the cards were placed in the slabs by the old or new management? I see SGC has newer style flips. Are these new flips indicative of the new "regime" in place at SGC?

Thanks Fred,

I had not been aware of that grading issue regarding cards graded on the old SGC scale of 1-100, and how they won't automatically cross them over. And again, because I don't grade cards, I usually don't think about such stuff.

The part that surprises me a bit though is based on something I saw earlier in the thread about how the old guaranty went out the window with a change in owners. Again, I don't pay particular attention to TPGs and their dealings and such when they are bought or sold. The thing is though, the owners of a company are typically completely independent of the company itself. By that I mean if you incorporate or organize your entity as a type of LLC, the company is considered separate from the owners. You can have shareholders/LLC owners sell their interests to others, but the actual company itself, and all the legal agreements, contracts, and everything else they ever entered into are typically still in force and legally binding, and carryover to the new owners.

And that is exactly why a lot of times, when people look to buy/sell their businesses, they don't just buy/sell the stock of the corporation, or membership units of the LLC, instead they sell the actual underlying assets of the business. The new owners will set up an entirely new entity to buy those assets, and then operate the business through that new entity going forward. Doing so allows the new owners typically to completely remove any and all responsibility and liability for any old agreements, contracts, guaranties, or anything else of that sort that the old entity had been part of and/or agreed to. And not honoring or carrying over those old SGC grades would likely be part of it as well. As someone earlier noted, the old SGC name was also rebranded a bit at the same time as the 1-100 grading scale was being abandoned. I haven't done any checking or research, but the circumstances sure seem to point to when that ownership changed, there was an asset sale by the old SGC to the new SGC that took place so the new company could abandon the guaranties and promises the old company had made. Which basically makes anything in the old slabs worthless, or at least worth a lot less, in the eyes of the hobby. Just look at GAI graded cards that are still out there.

Oh, and the new company also buying and continuing to use the old company name, along with other things like continuing to list older slabs they do not guarantee or stand behind any more on their pop reports, is just a deceptive, but legal, way for the new company to make new and old customers think it is still basically the same company. It is also how the old company owners can cash out and profit off the goodwill and positive reputation they had built up, by actually selling the rights to the company name along with things like the old pop report records. Meanwhile the new company owners buying these, get all the rewards with none of the risks, while often also fooling a lot of people into thinking that nothing has really changed.

Not directing this spiel at you Fred, but more to let others know how things that can end up affecting them personally like that can happen, and maybe more importantly, why they happen. Any of the TPG owners out there today could suddenly decide to cash out and simply sell their assets and company name to someone else, completely abandoning the guarantees and promises made to their customers. Something for people to keep in mind that love and rely on the value in their graded cards so much. The TPG owners can go at any time, without your consent or permission, and pretty much dump any guarantees or promises you thought they had ever made to you as their customer, by simply selling everything off. And collectors can't even go back against the old, original company and its owners on such guarantees or promises because typically after such sales, the old owners immediately remove all cash and remaining assets from the old company, and either abandon or formally shut it down. And of course, one of the, if not the biggest, reasons people incorporate or set up their businesses as LLCs is because in doing so, they know you typically can't ever come after them personally for any liabilities, suits, or guarantees. Definite food for thought and something for hobby collectors to keep in the back of their minds.