$117K SGC 8.5 DiMaggio WWG trimmed heavily, previously an SGC 6

[swarmee]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=7884


In case one of you big spenders purchased this card, see if you can get a refund. Anothe point for the BODA.

[wolterse]

wow great investigative work there

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[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by wolterse

wow great investigative work there

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Agreed Great work and also great how you made that image work one over the other

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Agreed Great work and also great how you made that image work one over the other

I am not the OP from the blowout thread; my handle over there is mjohnatgt. However, the BODA (Blowout Detective Agency) guys have done a tremendous job outting fraud over the past 5 years. If you haven't seen that type of overlay before, you should go over to blowout and read about 50 threads.

Here are some of the top ones:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1298835
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1289859
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297767

Wonder if the FBI is still doing any leg work? Most of their discovery has already been accomplished by volunteers.

[Casey2296]

Props to BODA, doing the Lords work for half a decade, keep it up guys.

[Tyruscobb]

This hobby’s fraud and greed never stops amazing me. I wonder how many high grade, rare cards are legitimate? I suspect the number is shockingly low. This is the reason I’m a low to collector-grade guy.

[Fred]

This is why TPGs should use a minimum size requirement for cards with RAZOR sharp corners.

If the card doesn't meet the minimum size requirement and it has RAZOR sharp corners, then have a QUALIFIER that indicates it doesn't meet the minimum size requirement but has been graded as if it were. That would put the thought in everyone's mind that it could be trimmed (which it probably is). Think about it.

When you look at the number of cards out there and find that a large number of high grade cards doesn't meet the minimum size requirement, then people may start asking why most cards with lower grades meet the size requirement but higher graded cards do not. I mean really? Are we this stupid?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Fred

This is why TPGs should use a minimum size requirement for cards with RAZOR sharp corners.

If the card doesn't meet the minimum size requirement and it has RAZOR sharp corners, then have a QUALIFIER that indicates it doesn't meet the minimum size requirement but has been graded as if it were. That would put the thought in everyone's mind that it could be trimmed (which it probably is). Think about it.

When you look at the number of cards out there and find that a large number of high grade cards doesn't meet the minimum size requirement, then people may start asking why most cards with lower grades meet the size requirement but higher graded cards do not. I mean really? Are we this stupid?

When it comes to most humans on this planet, the answer to your very last question is a resounding YES!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Fred

This is why TPGs should use a minimum size requirement for cards with RAZOR sharp corners.

If the card doesn't meet the minimum size requirement and it has RAZOR sharp corners, then have a QUALIFIER that indicates it doesn't meet the minimum size requirement but has been graded as if it were. That would put the thought in everyone's mind that it could be trimmed (which it probably is). Think about it.

When you look at the number of cards out there and find that a large number of high grade cards doesn't meet the minimum size requirement, then people may start asking why most cards with lower grades meet the size requirement but higher graded cards do not. I mean really? Are we this stupid?

They reject cards and send them back unslabbed with a label that says MINSZ or similar, I forget the exact phrase. They seem to ignore this suspiciously often to keep slabbing very small cards. Strange!

People are sadly this stupid. Strangely thin high grade cards continue to outsell by huge margins unaltered cards that are of normal size. What the slab says overcomes actual reality in the market. Reality is annoying, the card in the 9 slab lets you flex on the poor with the same card in a 6 slab. Being altered is irrelevant.

[doug.goodman]

At this point in the age of opinion sellers I actually enjoy seeing a trimmed card go for 6 figures.

Anybody who likes cards enough to pay THREE figures for a card should be able to tell the difference between trimmed and not trimmed, when it's to those degrees. Obviously it's harder to tell until they get the card in hand, but as soon as they do...

Nobody who buys a trimmed card has any excuse.

The person who bought the DiMaggio in 2021 knew exactly what he got moments after he received it.

Nice looking slab, though.

Doug "I wish I could get trimmed to an 8.5" Goodman

[Johnny630]

For the most part, investors don’t care what may have been done to a card as long as it’s in a PSA Slab with a number grade it’s gold. This is the bottom line of where we are at in 2023.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

For the most part, investors don’t care what may have been done to a card as long as it’s in a PSA Slab with a number grade it’s gold. This is the bottom line of where we are at in 2023.

I don't think that's true. I think they don't know. They assume the TPGs are making sure the cards are not altered.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

WIth a card like this in that high a grade holder, there really should be a presumption that it's been altered, IMO, even if it may be hard to tell given the expertise of the work.\

BTW I wonder if Dave Forman graded this one personally. I'll leave it at that.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

For the most part, investors don’t care what may have been done to a card as long as it’s in a PSA Slab with a number grade it’s gold. This is the bottom line of where we are at in 2023.

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

I don't think that's true. I think they don't know. They assume the TPGs are making sure the cards are not altered.

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Bbwaa....and that isn't supposed to mean BB writers association of America...

Bbwaa... I guess that's the point, they're trusting the TPGs. Trust'em? Bbwaa...

Bbwaa...

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

For the most part, investors don’t care what may have been done to a card as long as it’s in a PSA Slab with a number grade it’s gold. This is the bottom line of where we are at in 2023.

100 percent Johnny. Many of these “collectors” have bowed down to the almighty grading card companies. As long as the card is in a holder and is high grade, they don’t care what was done to it.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

WIth a card like this in that high a grade holder, there really should be a presumption that it's been altered, IMO, even if it may be hard to tell given the expertise of the work.

Amazing that it got graded. But it sure looks great in that tux!

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[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Fred

Bbwaa....and that isn't supposed to mean BB writers association of America...



Bbwaa... I guess that's the point, they're trusting the TPGs. Trust'em? Bbwaa...



Bbwaa...

Yep, exactly.

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[conor912]

This is why TPGs should use a minimum size requirement for cards with RAZOR sharp corners. admit they have no idea how to perform the one service they are expected to.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by conor912

This is why TPGs should use a minimum size requirement for cards with RAZOR sharp corners. admit they have no idea how to perform the one service they are expected to.

You are assuming it wasn't done knowingly.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

I don't think that's true. I think they don't know. They assume the TPGs are making sure the cards are not altered.

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Very possible but my point is they don't want to know or care to know. It's in a holder end of the discussion for the investor it's good to go.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You are assuming it wasn't done knowingly.

A $100,000 card has to be reviewed by the head grader, I would think. It's hard to believe that SGC blew that review because of incompetence.

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[Fred]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

For the most part, investors don’t care what may have been done to a card as long as it’s in a PSA Slab with a number grade it’s gold. This is the bottom line of where we are at in 2023.

Sad but true commentary. As long as someone can flip the card for a profit and not have to be held responsible for the actual condition/state of the card because people blindly rely on TPGs that fall back on "subjectivity" (or worse).

Back in the day the biggest concern about slabbed cards was that someone would exchange/swap a card in the holder (WIWAG was one of the first) and defraud people to make their money. Today, TPGs grade on a much larger scale and do it less accurately which results in a lot of people that are not getting what they paid for. What boggles the mind is that we're not talking hundreds of dollars but 10s of thousands of dollars (and more).

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Fred

Sad but true commentary. As long as someone can flip the card for a profit and not have to be held responsible for the actual condition/state of the card because people blindly rely on TPGs that fall back on "subjectivity" (or worse).

Back in the day the biggest concern about slabbed cards was that someone would exchange/swap a card in the holder (WIWAG was one of the first) and defraud people to make their money. Today, TPGs grade on a much larger scale and do it less accurately which results in a lot of people that are not getting what they paid for. What boggles the mind is that we're not talking hundreds of dollars but 10s of thousands of dollars (and more).

PSA Wouldnt have graded this it's so narrow a blind bat could tell it's trimmed. SGC to me losses credibility with this one...sad hope they tighten up.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

PSA Wouldnt have graded this it's so narrow a blind bat could tell it's trimmed.

I know you've been paying attention. Not sure why you'd trust them either.

Remember, they knew Gary was passing trimmed cards through them 20 years ago, and did nothing to stop it. And many of the cards outed over the last five years have been laughable, even from PSA.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I know you've been paying attention. Not sure why you'd trust them either.

Remember, they knew Gary was passing trimmed cards through them 20 years ago, and did nothing to stop it. And many of the cards outed over the last five years have been laughable, even from PSA.

I have but PSA They're not even this bad....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

PSA Wouldnt have graded this it's so narrow a blind bat could tell it's trimmed. SGC to me losses credibility with this one...sad hope they tighten up.

It looks narrow compared to the very wide SGC 80. Not so sure it looks that narrow compared to the average card in this issue. I am guessing if someone had just posted the 8.5 by itself, you wouldn't be making that blind bat comment.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You are assuming it wasn't done knowingly.

It is about a 50/50 shot on being complete incompetence depending on who the submitter is.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It looks narrow compared to the very wide SGC 80. Not so sure it looks that narrow compared to the average card in this issue. I am guessing if someone had just posted the 8.5 by itself, you wouldn't be making that blind bat comment.

I don't know I think if you have seen this card in your hand raw you would say something is wrong here, you know better. Just me idk...it’s small... that's all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I don't know I think if you have seen this card in your hand raw you would say something is wrong here, you know better. Just me idk...it’s small... that's all.

Look at all the WWGs on ebay and tell me if you still think it's obviously narrow. Size seems to vary.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Very possible but my point is they don't want to know or care to know. It's in a holder end of the discussion for the investor it's good to go.

That's not true, either. Anyone that is concerned about future value wants to know their card is legit. No "investor" wants to be sitting on a fake.

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[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

That's not true, either. Anyone that is concerned about future value wants to know their card is legit. No "investor" wants to be sitting on a fake.

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Fake I agree with you....trimmed not so much in a holder they don't care.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

That's not true, either. Anyone that is concerned about future value wants to know their card is legit. No "investor" wants to be sitting on a fake.

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The buyers of the most famous investment card in the hobby seem to disagree. PSA 8 it might be, but it's been well known pretty much from the start that it ain't unaltered.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by G1911

The buyers of the most famous investment card in the hobby seem to disagree. PSA 8 it might be, but it's been well known pretty much from the start that it ain't unaltered.

Are you just trolling? If you really think the buyer knew (or suspected) the Dimaggio was trimmed, let's hear it.

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[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

PSA Wouldnt have graded this it's so narrow a blind bat could tell it's trimmed. SGC to me losses credibility with this one...sad hope they tighten up.

They wouldn't?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

That's not true, either. Anyone that is concerned about future value wants to know their card is legit. No "investor" wants to be sitting on a fake.

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They have a 'real' 8.5 slab.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Are you just trolling? If you really think the buyer knew (or suspected) the Dimaggio was trimmed, let's hear it.

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Are you just not reading? People are saying investors don't care if a card is trimmed, not that the buyer of this card knows for a fact it is trimmed.

I understand it is easier to argue against this claim you made up instead, but nobody said it. Try harder.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

That's ridiculous. The strip that was removed from the left could be used as a shoelace...or belt.

[ejharrington]

The problem is if the card meets minimum size requirements, I don't see how SGC could conclude it was altered.

[irv]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

The problem is if the card meets minimum size requirements, I don't see how SGC could conclude it was altered.

That's the thing, imo. Numerous cards from way back then did not all come from the factory all the same size so trimming off whatever small amount the trimmers do (Thousandths of an inch?) is very hard to detect if the card still remains in spec.

I've heard before, however, that the TPG's can/should be able to detect, based on the edge color (and maybe some other things?) compared to the rest of the card, whether it has been recently trimmed or not?

Imo, it is a tough one for the TPG's to grade, especially if the edge looks like the rest of the card, (color/age wise) if one has been trimmed or not if it still falls into the size parameters.
(This is just my uneducated thought anyways)

[G1911]

Originally Posted by irv

That's the thing, imo. Numerous cards from way back then did not all come from the factory all the same size so trimming off whatever small amount the trimmers do (Thousandths of an inch?) is very hard to detect if the card still remains in spec.

I've heard before, however, that the TPG's can/should be able to detect, based on the edge color (and maybe some other things?) compared to the rest of the card, whether it has been recently trimmed or not?

Imo, it is a tough one for the TPG's to grade, especially if the edge looks like the rest of the card, (color/age wise) if one has been trimmed or not if it still falls into the size parameters.
(This is just my uneducated thought anyways)

In hand, it's usually pretty easy to separate a likely trim job, I think. Color of the edge itself is one of several clues. True microtrims where only a very tiny strip is cut off very modern cards (which still vary in size - a stack of 2023 Topps base are visibly different sizes if you look closely) are the ones where I just can't tell. Telling from a scan is often tough because it doesn't show most of the edge of a card.

Natural variance should lead, overall, to a roughly equal number of oversized and undersized cards.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

The problem is if the card meets minimum size requirements, I don't see how SGC could conclude it was altered.

As far as vintage cards are concerned, size is not the way in which to determine if a card has been trimmed. If that were the only criteria then it would explain why there are so many trimmed cards in graded holders. The consistency of the grain (ways the layers of paper appear), the cut itself, as well as toning compared to what is typically seen on a factory cut card.

It can be hard to tell that from a photo, or if the card is already graded but with before and after images we can certainly now see SGC messed up...again.

[D. Bergin]

I know the pay-off is substantial, but I'm still shocked at the cajones of somebody to trim a card, that is already 20K+ card nowadays. They've gotta have a lot of confidence that it's gonna pass.

I don't even have the confidence to cut cards from sheets or strips that are meant to be cut, with my crappy Staples issued paper cutter . But I do understand that people with the right tools and skill-set, can make it seem imperceptible to most.

I've said this before, but I set-up at hundreds of shows in the 80's and into the early 90's, and truly vintage NM to Gem Mint cards, were very, very few...and far between...and most of those were also trimmed or flattened out in brick like lucite holders to make them look better then they actually were.

Even cards I pulled right out of packs, I had a hard time, in good conscience, calling them MINT. I'd always just call them NM to be on the safe side.

That they started to become more common, when these huge price fluctuations began to develop between mid-graded stuff and high graded stuff, has proven to be not such a coincidence I guess.

That Dimaggio "6" would have been the centerpiece of almost any dealers table, because that "8.5", would have never existed in the first place.

Altering cards is not NEW. Back in the 80's, dealers used to color in the borders of 71' Topps cards, to get an extra buck or two a card. Can you imagine what somebody would do for an extra 100K a card?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I know the pay-off is substantial, but I'm still shocked at the cajones of somebody to trim a card, that is already 20K+ card nowadays. They've gotta have a lot of confidence that it's gonna pass.

I don't even have the confidence to cut cards from sheets or strips that are meant to be cut, with my crappy Staples issued paper cutter . But I do understand that people with the right tools and skill-set, can make it seem imperceptible to most.

I've said this before, but I set-up at hundreds of shows in the 80's and into the early 90's, and truly vintage NM to Gem Mint cards, were very, very few...and far between...and most of those were also trimmed or flattened out in brick like lucite holders to make them look better then they actually were.

Even cards I pulled right out of packs, I had a hard time, in good conscience, calling them MINT. I'd always just call them NM to be on the safe side.

That they started to become more common, when these huge price fluctuations began to develop between mid-graded stuff and high graded stuff, has proven to be not such a coincidence I guess.

That Dimaggio "6" would have been the centerpiece of almost any dealers table, because that "8.5", would have never existed in the first place.

Altering cards is not NEW. Back in the 80's, dealers used to color in the borders of 71' Topps cards, to get an extra buck or two a card. Can you imagine what somebody would do for an extra 100K a card?

+1. Altering cards isn’t new, but the ‘old days’ alterations were thankfully pretty easy to detect. The card doctors toolkit is a lot better these days and there are finally cards I look at, in hand, examine closely and cannot tell they have been altered. Modern cards with microtrims sometimes fall into this bucket, to make an 8 a 10 they can shave off way less than 1mm, and without the signs of age since it’s a new card, I can’t tell it’s altered. It’s well within size spec.

As a collector, it doesn’t really affect me. I don’t care if a card is altered personally beyond an academic point of view. I fear the day may come where this same problem arrives with authenticity, and that’s when the hobby implodes.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by G1911

As a collector, it doesn’t really affect me. I don’t care if a card is altered personally beyond an academic point of view. I fear the day may come where this same problem arrives with authenticity, and that’s when the hobby implodes.

Yeah, if they start convincingly 3D printing 1934 Goudey Lou Gehrig cards with ground up bits of 1934 Goudey Mark Koenig cards, then the high rollers are really gonna be in trouble.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I know the pay-off is substantial, but I'm still shocked at the cajones of somebody to trim a card, that is already 20K+ card nowadays. They've gotta have a lot of confidence that it's gonna pass.

Or a very solid relationship with their grading company of choice.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

For the most part, investors don’t care what may have been done to a card as long as it’s in a PSA Slab with a number grade it’s gold. This is the bottom line of where we are at in 2023.

Very true, Johnny, but should this card surface again in the marketplace, then many folks with long memories will stay well clear.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Very true, Johnny, but should this card surface again in the marketplace, then many folks with long memories will stay well clear.

Agree and hope so :-)

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Very true, Johnny, but should this card surface again in the marketplace, then many folks with long memories will stay well clear.

For most of us this would be true but most of us could not afford to spend 6 figures on a card. Those who can seem to have quite a large appetite for overlooking such details and simply want a card that absent the alteration might not ever exist.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

WIth a card like this in that high a grade holder, there really should be a presumption that it's been altered, IMO, even if it may be hard to tell given the expertise of the work.\

BTW I wonder if Dave Forman graded this one personally. I'll leave it at that.

More like Eric was running late for a date and palmed the job off on Hyde

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I don't know I think if you have seen this card in your hand raw you would say something is wrong here, you know better. Just me idk...it’s small... that's all.

If I was being paid hundreds of dollars to be sure if it was trimmed or not among other things I'd darn sure know how to tell. (I do now, but would be extra dilligent, which apparently isn't at all how grading is done.)