Seller: "Ill just keep it" tactics in negotiation

[1952boyntoncollector]

Can we all agree, when negotiating a card, after the Seller has cited past sales, what past people have offered, SMR, VCP, has a deal with a guy but wont have funds till December etc, plus they refuse to list on Ebay....that when dealer finally says 'if i cant sell ill just keep it' (and they usually mean will keep for years not for the week etc)

that means they arent willing to sell at market value? or least during the current market value period of time. (dont say waiting for a month to pass, assume they mean for years) Ok let the arguments begin...

[Stonepony]

That made me dizzy

[T206Collector]

Sellers can ask any price they want -- reasonable or not. I'll just keep it is another way of saying no thank you. Market value has nothing to do with it, except as another factor in the arsenal of both sides during negotiations.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Sellers can ask any price they want -- reasonable or not. I'll just keep it is another way of saying no thank you. Market value has nothing to do with it, except as another factor in the arsenal of both sides during negotiations.

[1952boyntoncollector]

sellers can do whatever they want..but if they would rather keep the card versus selling it..they cant say they are offering it at market value at the present time if they will keep it rather than sell it to the highest bidder..

i never said a seller has to sell a card....i just saying can we all agree they arent willing to sell it at present market value if will not sell to the highest offer in a large period of time and would rather hold onto the card for years..

[chipperhank44]

I find that when you have extremely long & drawn out negotiations over a fair market offer like you're describing without a sale there are usually some sentimental feelings toward the card. Either money whip the sentimental feelings out of the picture or move on....it's their property and they aren't truly ready to move on. Market value is of no consequence to a sentimental owner.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This seems circular to me. If a seller isn't willing to sell, then he isn't willing to sell.

[AJR]

A card is worth what a buyer will pay for it... Conversely a card is also worth what a seller is willing to take for it...

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by AJR

.. Conversely a card is also worth what a seller is willing to take for it...

I disagree, that has nothing to so with its worth.

[Bugsy]

It sounds like he wasn't really that interested in moving it in the first place. If you are trying to pry it out of his personal collection, offering market value probably isn't going to do it.

[Bugsy]

Think of it this way. If you are trying to get him to part with something he wants to keep in his collection, you are going to have to offer more than what he probably paid for it.

[Exhibitman]

I do this all the time. It would be stupid to do that with a mainstream card but I have a lot of items that are oddball and obscure, and many cards that are very, very scarce [esp. in the boxing field]. If someone wants one of them they are going to have to dazzle me with their offer because I can't just go replace it on eBay.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

I disagree, that has nothing to so with its worth.

Sure it does. When a seller won't sell for a certain price they are saying at that point it is worth that much to them to keep it. It just isn't a value that can be tracked.


I will say that I am guilty of the "I will keep it" mentality. Any card I have can be sold, but it doesn't mean I would be willing to let it go even at "market value". Sometimes this is due to sentiment, the card is part of a collection goal, or it falls into the "too rare" category where market value is sporadic at best and I know I couldn't replace it very easily if I wanted to in the future.

For instance I have a card I know another collector on the board was looking for and knew it existed but didn't know who had it. So I made him aware I had it and that he was free to make an offer. His offer was fair by most "market" standards, but to me I wasn't willing to let it go. So to me, at that point, it became worth more than the offered price.

[Leon]

Oh, you guys are talking about my "don't want to sell it" card prices. Those are usually double or more of market value (whatever that means). I have it, you want it, I don't want to sell it, so make me an offer I can't refuse!!

It's not a big deal, I do it all of the time. Ask anyone that came by our table at the National. Lots of great cards with wildly high prices. I truly didn't want to sell but if someone had to have something, there was a price.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Leon

Oh, you guys are talking about my "don't want to sell it" card prices. Those are usually double or more of market value (whatever that means). I have it, you want it, I don't want to sell it, so make me an offer I can't refuse!!

It's not a big deal, I do it all of the time. Ask anyone that came by our table at the National. Lots of great cards with wildly high prices. I truly didn't want to sell but if someone had to have something, there was a price.

I'll take 50K for my Babe Ruth...if no one is interested.

[1952boyntoncollector]

i not talking about taking from a personal collection.

the scenerio thats pretty common..is a card is listed for active sale...and the seller is upset at an offer....thats why i posted the excuses such as 'vcp compairison' smr comparison' 'have an offer but the guy doesnt have funds til january ' etc..but then at the end of it..the seller just says 'ill keep it'......

my point is that sellers belittle offers but can we all agree they cant belittle an offer if its market value and their only point in not selling is 'ill keep it'...they can do whatever they want with their card but its annoying when they belittle a market price offer on a card that they appear to be actively selling

sellers can have feelings and entitled to do whatever....my whole point is can we agree when 'ill keep it' when thats the last tactic when faced with the highest offer they can possibly get in a time period means they arent willing to accept market price...

[1952boyntoncollector]

.

For instance I have a card I know another collector on the board was looking for and knew it existed but didn't know who had it. So I made him aware I had it and that he was free to make an offer. His offer was fair by most "market" standards, but to me I wasn't willing to let it go. So to me, at that point, it became worth more than the offered price.[/QUOTE]


That wouldnt be 'actively selling it' the guy was seeking you out more than you seeking him out..

[vintagetoppsguy]

I woke up with a slight headache. It just got worse...and I didn't even make it though all the posts.

[ullmandds]

Truth is...most collectors think their cards are better and more valuable than others...especially their rarer ones! That being said...if someone wants a card I have..that I don't want to sell...they'd better make an impressive offer if they expect me to part with it...market value will not do in such situations!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I woke up with a slight headache. It just got worse...and I didn't even make it though all the posts.

I don't understand what is being asked either.

[packs]

It usually means you want the card more than the seller wants to sell it. I'll give a quick example:

Not too long ago I had a signed T206 that a fellow board member had their eye on. I made no attempts at all to sell it. However, one day I got a PM with an offer I couldn't justify turning down. So I sold it.

Had that offer not been so enticing, I would have said no thanks I'm going to keep it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

When a seller at the end of all negotiations with all possible sellers ends up 'keeping the card' Can we all agree the seller was not willing to sell the card at market price....

[ullmandds]

Occasionally I have board members contact me regarding card(s) I have in my collection that are not for sale. They ask me if the cards are for sale. I say no. They proceed to shoot me a lowball offer...and then seem offended when I act offended.

Really????

[Luke]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

When a seller at the end of all negotiations with all possible sellers ends up 'keeping the card' Can we all agree the seller was not willing to sell the card at market price....

Is it possible the guy just couldn't tell what you were talking about? Even if you took the time to edit these thoughts and put them into sentences with punctuation, it still wouldn't make sense.

"When a seller at the end of all negotiations with all possible sellers..."

I don't think you're going to get the agreement you're looking for when you make posts that are unintelligible.

[1952boyntoncollector]

i said if 'actively selling' i agree that if someone contacts me for a card that i am not actively selling i will want more than market price..

but if actively selling is the important part of my question..

[1952boyntoncollector]

i think enough people understand what im asking...

this is my last post of the thread..i think i got my answer .which is YES...thanks...

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Truth is...most collectors think their cards are better and more valuable than others...especially their rarer ones! That being said...if someone wants a card I have..that I don't want to sell...they'd better make an impressive offer if they expect me to part with it...market value will not do in such situations!

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_effect

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

When a seller at the end of all negotiations with all possible sellers ends up 'keeping the card' Can we all agree the seller was not willing to sell the card at market price....

Nope.

The issue I have with this is the assumption that there is a 'market' generating a 'market price' that an unreasonable vendor refuses to meet. That doesn't make real world sense to me. If there is a genuine market price that means there are plenty of recent sales in a ready marketplace, and therefore plenty of examples to choose from. If that is the case, then there is no logic behind the buyer dickering with the seller over the item; the buyer can just move onto the next example. The "I'll just keep it" negotiating scenario makes sense only if the item is sufficiently difficult to find to make it worthwhile to go back and forth, but in that case by definition there is no 'market' and therefore no 'market price' that can be relied on. Look, I had a tough though not rare card for sale and I went through the same sort of haggling with a wannabe buyer. He cited me this and that resource and I came back to the same position every time: if you can find it for that price, go buy it for that price. He couldn't and he paid me 95% of my ask in the end. The fact that a potential buyer was researching prices, haggling, etc., disproves the existence of a ready market for the card, hence disproves the assertion that there is a market price.

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

i think enough people understand what im asking...

this is my last post of the thread..i think i got my answer .which is YES...thanks...

Didn't even realize this was a yes or no question, lol.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

When a seller at the end of all negotiations with all possible sellers ends up 'keeping the card' Can we all agree the seller was not willing to sell the card at market price....

You mean with all possible BUYERS?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

Didn't even realize this was a yes or no question, lol.

Maybe it should have been a yes or no poll.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Can we all agree, when negotiating a card, after the Seller has cited past sales, what past people have offered, SMR, VCP, has a deal with a guy but wont have funds till December etc, plus they refuse to list on Ebay....that when dealer finally says 'if i cant sell ill just keep it' (and they usually mean will keep for years not for the week etc)

that means they arent willing to sell at market value? or least during the current market value period of time. (dont say waiting for a month to pass, assume they mean for years) Ok let the arguments begin...

This all makes me wonder what type of tactics you use on the buyer end.

My favorite goes something like this: "Since your photo has creases all over it and is dirty, I'm offering you lower than your asking price." You can use this one for cards as well. I need this kind of logic presented to me since I'm too stupid to consider condition when I price things.

[Jaybird]

I agree with Adam's points. I'd also add that if that person puts it up for sale on N54 B/S/T, and gets 5 offers, that isn't the "market". C'mon, 5 people send low ball offers for a card and he should accept one of them because that's the market for a card?

If the card sold 3-4 times in the last 2 years in well publicized auctions, I might accept that as close to market price.

Without details into your particular scenario, it's very hard to give a yes or no answer, but I'm going to say NO.

[drcy]

A few points:

1) It sounds as if you can't find that particular card being sold by someone else (or you would have bought it from that person at desired price), so the seller has more leverage than just 'market price.' If this is the only one on the market and you're trying to procure it, this transaction is the market at this point and time.

2) "I'll keep it" is a literally correct phrase. There was a recent post complaining about sellers making up lies for why they won't sell, and this guy is telling you straight. He's keeping the card.

3) As a seller, I (and I know others) get quickly tired of 'negotiation types.' Back and forth negotiations get old quickly for me. I've also had buyers ask for the lowest price I'll sell, I'll calculate the price and the buyer will offer a lower price. My thought is "I just was honest and gave you my lowest price." It's an insult to my honesty because I'm an honest person. So people who like negotiating a lot can get tiresome and after a while I'll say "Forget this, I'm just keeping the card. I don't want to sell it anymore. I'd rather be watching telelvision."

4) The market value can be low. I think there are items that are currently way undervalued, there are baseball cards that have proven to be undervalued over time. If the market prices were always accurate, prices would never rise or fall.

5) Did you make an offer below market value? Do you make offers elsewhere below market value? If so, then what's with this 'market value as final arbiter of sales price' argument? If you can make an offer below market value, then why can't a seller go above it?

6) As a seller, I know the ultimate power in negotiations is I when don't have to sell something. A seller should never say before negotiations "I need money quick and have to sell this asap." There's nothing I have to sell. If I throw it all in dumpster, I'll still have a place to live and food to eat.

7) If you are rude to my mother or other customers at her garage sale, she will refuse to sell you anything at any price. She'll throw the stuff away before she sells to you. It has nothing to do with money or market value. At that point, trying to make those arguments with her is pointless. And before you try and be tricky and lowball her, realize that my mother is always this far (my index finger 1/4th inch in front of thumb) from giving the stuff to charity, so if sellers are rude or unreasonable or offers are low she will give the stuff away to charity. Often times she's having the garage sale to raise money for a charity.

And I can promise you that if you say to my mom "You have to sell it at market value," she will say "I don't have to do anything. It's mine."

My dad had a colleague who once asked him in the hallway if he was going to that afternoon's departmental meeting and my dad said he wasn't. The colleague asked why not and my dad said "Because I don't want to." The uptight follow rules and order colleague couldn't even fathom that as a reason for not going. "Not wanting to" as a reason fell outside his logic system. This story comes to mind when people state 'written in stone' rules such as "You have to sell at market price. That's the rule." My dad would respond "There are options other than selling at market price. One is to go to lunch. Another is to take a nap."

[Sean]

David, I thought that was a really good reply.

[detroitbaseball]

"Somebody asked me if my club was for sale. What a ridiculous question! Of course it is for sale! So is my hat and my overcoat and my watch. Anyone who wants them can have them, at a price. I will dispose of my holdings in the Red Sox at any time, for my price." - Harry Frazee (owner of the Boston Red Sox 1916-1923)

Ken Burns' Baseball, 4th Inning: 1920-1930

[Runscott]

The other thing about David's mother is that if you were really, really nice to her, she would probably give you the item for free.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by drcy

7) If you are rude to my mother or other customers at her garage sale, she will refuse to sell you anything at any price. She'll throw the stuff away before she sells to you. It has nothing to do with money or market value. At that point, trying to make those arguments is pointless. And before you try and be tricky and lowball her, realize that my mother is always this far (my index finger 1/4th inch in front of thumb) from giving the stuff to charity, so if sellers are rude or unreasonable or offers are low she will give the stuff away to charity. Often times she's having the garage sale to raise money for a charity.

I place a certain dollar value on having to deal with nits. If I didn't, I would still be earning good money working for corporate America. I honestly believe that most people can't think outside of dollars and products. That's why God invented Tums.

[Exhibitman]

Great stuff, David!

"I don't want to": People forget the power of "no." That's what anyone with a 'standard form contract' counts on. There is a great sci-fi story "And Then There Were None" by Eric Frank Russell where the core value of the planet in question is "Freedom-I won't", which is used to undermine the wannabe military invaders from earth. Though it can bite you in the behind sometimes. I had one client who got a deposit for some efx work on a film, the job cancelled, and he asked if he could keep the deposit. I asked whether the contract said it was non-refundable, he said no, so I told him to give it back. His response: "I don't want to." He got sued.

Also 1,000% agree on rude people. I'd rather not deal than deal with an a-hole. Life's too short for that.

As for undercutting the lowest price, that happens so frequently that I tell my clients in negotiations never, ever issue a final figure unless you are ready to go to court if it is not met. Blows your credibility to smithereens if you issue an ultimatum and then you move from it. I had another case where the opposing counsel wrote me a letter [four pages worth; Hollywood...] stating that his client would never pay a dime, never, ever, ever, no negotiations, etc. I called him up and asked whether he was authorized to accept service of process on behalf of his client. His response: Well, aren't you going to negotiate? I said no, you wrote no negotiations, and I am accepting your statement at face value. Made for a very awkward moment for him.

I heard one great smartass reply to what's your lowest price: What's your highest price?

[bobbyw8469]

If someone wants one of them they are going to have to dazzle me with their offer because I can't just go replace it on eBay.

I used this EXACT statement when someone wanted one of my Sport Kings. I can't buy it for the price he was offering. If someone wants one of my cards, they better step up to the plate. If they want to steal a card, then they are free to bid on them via auctions the same way I am.

[bobbyw8469]

I heard one great smartass reply to what's your lowest price: What's your highest price?

LMFAO!!! Love this!! I am so using this one!

[tschock]

"+1 to whoever said most pointless thread of the day. If not, then let me be the first." he said, in crotchety old-man mode.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by Runscott

This all makes me wonder what type of tactics you use on the buyer end.

My favorite goes something like this: "Since your photo has creases all over it and is dirty, I'm offering you lower than your asking price." You can use this one for cards as well. I need this kind of logic presented to me since I'm too stupid to consider condition when I price things.

+1

And when someone starts quoting guides and market prices and such, that's usually when I end the negotiation. Make me an offer, and if I think it's too low, I'll counter with what I can do. Keep dicking around with lowball offers, and the price goes up from there (annoyance tax). Try to "educate" me on the market, teach me how to grade, quote some online price guide, or (my favorite) tell me how you'll give me 70% of the lowball price you once saw that item sell for, and I'll simply block you. I've been buying and selling on eBay since 1997, and there are too many reasonable customers out there who I enjoy interacting with for me to waste my time with a buyer who is probably going to find some reason to neg me later on anyway.

I'll just keep it.

[tschock]

OK, for a non-crotchety summary. There are probably dozens of legitimate reasons buyers offer that they do and dozens of legitimate reasons why sellers accept offers that the do. And there are probably dozens more excuses on both sides. The ONLY fact one can ascertain from when a sale is NOT made is that the seller and buyer couldn't agree on a price. Nothing more.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by tschock

OK, for a non-crotchety summary. There are probably dozens of legitimate reasons buyers offer that they do and dozens of legitimate reasons why sellers accept offers that the do. And there are probably dozens more excuses on both sides. The ONLY fact one can ascertain from when a sale is NOT made is that the seller and buyer couldn't agree on a price. Nothing more.

Yeah, and there are 524 cards in the T206 set. End of discussion.

(This is a discussion forum).

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

i think enough people understand what im asking...

this is my last post of the thread..i think i got my answer .which is YES...thanks...

I Do Hate to Ask... However, I Just Gotta Know!?!?


"Chao... iS That You? ... Peter???"

[philliesphan]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

I disagree, that has nothing to so with its worth.

Except if...the card is too rare to be valuable.

We must go deeper.

[glchen]

Everyone's definition of market value is different. If it were so easy to say that a card at this condition has this market value (say by quoting VCP), then the buyer can always try to buy another card from another seller at that price. If there's no other comparable card for sale at the price the buyer is quoting, then that might not be the true market value. Otherwise, the buyer can always wait for the card he wants at the price he wants. Impatience causes prices to go up.

[lug-nut]

when trying to negotiate with a buyer who insists on trying to get you to accept their low-ball, unreasonable offer (while trying to justify the market). i too will tell them the same thing "for that offer, i'll just keep it" which means "i'll wait for a better offer"

either buy it or don't, it's mine to put whatever price on it i choose

[pbspelly]

What do you think about when someone has a card and is not interested in selling it and another member asks about it but gets no response? I've had this happen a few times, where I knew another member had a card I was looking for. I sent a message asking if they were interested in selling it and they just ignored my query. No response at all. But they keep posting comments on other threads so I know they're around. Seems kind of inconsiderate.