Question for Jodi B. (and others)

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Posted By: J. McMurry

I have mostly collected autographs,but thanks to this board I recently purchased my first t206, A Mike Donlin (seated), I love the story behind Turkey Mike and it got me to wondering how common/rare is his signature?

Anybody ever seen a signed t206 ? Thanks

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Posted By: sean

Hi There,

donlin is extremely rare. I ve never seen his t206 signed. Paul is the big signed t206 guy on this board (I would be if I hadnt been outbid by paul everytime lol)

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Posted By: CS Bolay

Donlin died pretty young, if I'm thinking right...tough on any item. People didn't do signed cards much in those days.

I've seen some of the guys who lived into the 60's-70s, like Paddy Livingston and Tommy Leach. I believe I've heard of Cobb as well.

Afraid the closest thing I have is a Livingston signed reprint...

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Posted By: Rhys

I personally know of 4 total Mike Donlin signatures in the hobby. I am sure there are a few more but that would give a rough idea of the rarity. I am sure there are several more in scrapbooks or yet to be uncovered finds and maybe evena few tucked into collection of movie actor autographs, but the rarity is probably on par with a the top 3% of all players who appear in the T206 set.

If you ever see a signed T206 card of anyone who died before the 1950's run away from it as fast as you can. Aside from the signed T206 Walter Johnson that was discussed on here last year (That I am convinced is not authentic) I personally dont think there is a single authentic signed T206 of a pre 1950's death date in the hobby. I am also aware there is an authenticated Frank Chance but I dont buy the authenticity of that either.

You can find a Donlin signature cut from a document or something eventually, but expect to pay around $1500 for it.

Rhys

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Posted By: Tom Hufford

Here's my Mike Donlin autographed (slightly less than) 8x10, from his movie days. The T206 isn't signed - just for scale.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Yes, Donlin is extremely tough. I have personally never owned one. Despite his early death, I really would have thought we would have seen more of his signature out there due to his career in Hollywood and Vaudeville. He was such a headline maker in his day that the rarity of his signature actually boggles my mind. Then again, Charlie Faust apparently went on the Vaudeville circuit, and I know of nothing that survives on him, but he died nearly 20 years prior to Turkey Mike and his fame was obviously of the fleeting variety.

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Posted By: J. McMurry

thanks for all the replies, Tom that is a N-I-C-E picture!

I had a feeling that Donlin was rare as I dont recall ever seeing one in the past 20 years,but I wasnt really on the look out for him,so I wasnt sure.

It is strange there are not more examples out there given his popularity, and I wonder why there's not more signed T206's out there? Did they have a heavier distribution in the South where there were no major league teams?

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Jody,

The popularity of collecting signed gum/tobacco cards did not really take off until the late 1960's. Prior to that, there were a very few pioneering collectors in this field, including Jeff Morey. They started sending gum cards in with mail requests during the previous decade. Before that, signed cards are practically nonexistent, although the odd one turns up on occasion. I want to say that 1939 is the earliest player date of death I can recall seeing on a signed card (an American Caramel). At least that's of recent memory.

On the same token, having 3X5 cards signed through the mail started in full force in the early-mid 1930's. Before that time, it almost seems as though hardly anybody was requesting ballplayers' autographs through the mail. The earliest signed 3X5 I have seen dates from the WWI era, and for now it seems to be an isolated incident. The earliest player death on any 3X5 I have ever owned was 1928. In that instance, the 3X5 was much different in format. It was of very heavy stock, the paper was a high quality linen bond and the corners were slightly machine-rounded. It was also perhaps four or five times as thick as a modern 3X5.

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Posted By: T206Collector

My website hosts a scan of every signed T206 card I've ever seen, including a PSA/DNA Bresnahan (d. 1944), as well as the 31 I own. I also list the names of those that I have reliably heard tale have appeared on T206 cards.

Marquard, Snodgrass and Doyle are the most prevalent of the signed T206, in my opinion. But even these are quite rare. There were two "finds" of signed pre-war cards that entered the market in 2007 -- the largest of which was a Pittsburgh collection, which had been assembled by the seller's uncle who was a sportswriter. Those trickled onto ebay from April 2007 until November or December. Any that have shown up since then are resales of that find.





_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Visit http://www.t206collector.com for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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Posted By: J. McMurry

Great site!

More evidence as to what Jodi was saying, as all the cards you show look to have been signed in ballpoint. How many have you come across that have been signed in fountain pen?


Thanks for all the responses,I honestly didnt realize how rare signed t206's were until now.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Outside of an odd T-type on very rare occasions, you only really see Goudey issues signed in fountain pen. I should amend one of my previous posts to discuss signed Goudeys. The 1933-34 sets were actually the earliest instance where I have seen evidence of signed set collecting. I'm fairly certain that many of these vintage-signed Goudeys were autographed in-person at the time (I have found more evidence of this being the case rather than these being sent through the mail, although both methods were certainly used). Some of these Goudeys were certainly signed while the players were still active, as I have seen examples of players like Johnny Welch and Earl Clark, who died only a few years following their retirements.

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Posted By: J. McMurry

Dude,

All I can do is shake my head in amazement. You truly are a walking encyclopedia. Thanks for the responses, I could discuss stuff like this for hours on end.

Thanks.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

I should have made mention that 1938, as opposed to 1939, may be the earliest player death I recall seeing on a signed gum card ('33 Goudey Earl Clark). I've spent some time contemplating this, and am fairly certain that this is the case. I have on occasion encountered "signed" N-types, but certainly nothing genuine. Paul M. and I were discussing this some time ago.

One more thing about signed Goudeys--there were at least two major vintage in-person collections. Simply judging by the player representation in each grouping, one appeared to originate from the Boston area while the other had to have been from Cincinnati.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jodi, do you know how prevalent autograph collecting was in the nineteenth century? How common (or uncommon) was it for players to sign at games and such? Who was the granddaddy of baseball autograph collecting?

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Baseball autograph collecting was nonexistent in the 1800's. Players like King Kelly who achieved living legend status hardly exist in holographic form outside of one or two examples. This is even the case for a player like Willie Keeler, who lived into the 1920's. The earliest signed items (that were collected by fans, as opposed to documents or petitions) seem to be team-signed balls and multi-signed banquet programs dating from late in the first decade of the last century. Team-signed balls from that era are of course incredibly rare. It's funny to compare the infancy of team-signed major league balls to their later Negro League counterparts. From the 1900 decade to the 1910's you will encounter many players printing their name rather than signing (many only writing their surname). I believe this to be due to the fact that these men were not accustomed to writing on a rounded surface and were approaching the task with some trepidation. You have to also take into account the value placed in legible penmanship in that era--they wanted their contributions to display presentably. Moving into the mid-late 1920's we still see a few hand-printed sigs on team balls, but the familiarity of signing these items has become such that mostly cursive signatures are featured. Fittingly, it took minor league teams a few extra years to make the same transition (likely because the players were just starting to be asked to sign baseballs and were going through the same thing as the players of the past). By the early 1930's practically everyone in the majors were signing baseballs in cursive. You'll still see examples of hand-printed signatures on minor league balls into the early 1950's, but that's where that old custom appears to have ceased. In the case of Negro League team-signed balls, the players' signatures were haphazardly strewn all over the various panels at all angles. Printing and unsteady penmanship were common. Negro League fans didn't seem to have the collecting bug, as is fully evidenced by the extreme shortage of most players' autographs. On a typical Negro League team ball, you would more often than not see a shaky signature actually following the curves of the stitching, making for an arc-shaped, convex autograph! Examples of these traits still appear on modern-day Negro League reunion balls.

As to your other question, Dan, I unfortunately can't pinpoint who the "granddaddy" was. The earliest assemblages of holographic material all originate from player/executive estates or the files of businesses, sportswriters and periodicals. In fact, this very question so vexed me many years ago that I actually wrote a fictionalized biography of the first (and greatest!) baseball autograph collector of them all! I can certainly name some of the collectors from the 1930's-50's (some even still active to this day) who we have to thank for the abundance of vintage 3X5s and cuts, but there really wasn't anybody actively collecting autographs prior to that who did so in such full force to garner themselves the proper attention.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Great info Jodi! So this 1904 Omaha team ball may be considered "signed"?

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

The same person was responsible for all of the writing that is seen on your ball. I recall that you bought that item from Howard's estate or somesuch. I have only seen Howard's cursive signature, so can be of no use to you on the characteristics of his printing.

Edit: I also would venture that the ink was applied to the ball decades after 1904.

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Posted By: JC

"while the other had to have been from Cincinnati."

From what I have heard, Harold Shigley was responsible for at least one set of 33 Goudeys that were signed in person by going to Crosley Field, League Park and Lakefront Stadium in the early and mid 1930s. Not sure how they later managed to make it into the marketplace. I would venture that he was probably one of the most prolific autograph collectors ever, not only in sports, but also of historical autographs.

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Posted By: Rhys

Jodi

I was reading once in a book (Maybe the Seymour book but it escapes me now) that a team mate of King Kelly was relating that it was hard for Kelly to get to the ballpark in his prime because of so many children surrounding him for his autograph. Obviously the complete lack of Baseball autograph collections (for the sake of the signatures themselves) do not exist from this time period, but I have always wondered if there really are King Kelly autographs out there in random autograph books from the 1880's or if the team mate was mistaken as to the childrens intentions since he was relating the story so many years after the events took place.

The Hotel Ledger pages from the halper Estate and the Child autograph book from the Clarkson estate that Hunts sold several years ago are the closest things I can think of, but each of these were collected for a purpose other than just to accumulate baseball autographs.

Do you remember reading that about kelly?

Rhys

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

I can't say that I recall hearing Shigley's name associated with signed Goudeys, but the Cincinnati connection would certainly make sense, seeing as he was from Ohio, I believe. What strikes me as odd about that statement is that, in the 1933-34 period, Shigley was in his thirties. It would have been considered extremely odd for a grown man to ask a player to sign a gum card or autograph book in those days. Those were considered the playthings of children. 3X5s, GPCs, or baseballs would be the more "adult" items to have signed. That's what throws me off.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Actually, that story does sound familiar, and would have to agree that something was lost or misconstrued due to the passage of time. Chances are the children were simply crowding around Kelly just to be near him or to ask questions. Yes, some of this material would certainly have survived had it actually existed. A Kelly autograph would likely fetch nearly $100,000 in this day and age, perhaps more if on a particularly choice item such as a contract or letter with great content.

To illustrate my point, even the players featured in The Glory of Their Times made very little mention of signing autographs in their prime. While it's obvious that the latter-day players interviewed (Waner, Kamm, Jones, etc.) signed numerous items during their respective careers, the older fellows such as Leach and Jones don't mention anything (I haven't double-checked, but I'm sure this is correct).

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Posted By: JC

"Those were considered the playthings of children."


You might have gotten quite an argument from Lionel Carter and Burdick on that. I noticed that the grandson was selling Goudey and Batter-Up cards that once belonged to Harold on eBay last year. They were unsigned.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

There were very few adult collectors at that time. An adult publicly collecting autographs on gum cards in 1933 would likely have been snickered at far more so than today.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Very interesting points Jodi. I can tell you that I've all but stopped my public autograph collecting because of social perceptions. That combined with the assumption that everything ends up on ebay, and it's just not fun anymore. I still enjoy the pursuit of vintage signatures and will attend a public signing at a show. I can only imagine what the atmosphere must have been like in the thirties.

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Posted By: J. McMurry

What about the classic, "would you sign this for my kid"!?

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Posted By: CS Bolay

Interesting point, William...that's part of the reason why I've largely lost interest in pro sports in general, as well as the current-day autograph biz.

It's hard to put into words, but it's all become so artificial, slick and corporate, the quaint old apple pie-n'-mom charm is gone for me. Teams seem to be little more than branches of some massive, nebulous corporate entity, with about as much organic 'connection' to the city as the local K-mart...

Same way with autograph collecting these days...used to be you waited outside the ballpark or sent stuff through the mail. Now you get back the 'because of ebay...' notes or go to a show and get herded through a queue by some fat Tri-Star rent-a-cop loser on an ego trip.

I still visit the occasional show or send the occasional letter, but the joy is largely gone. Old-fashioned experiences in the hobby and fandom are getting harder to come by.

That's why I mainly concentrate on the vintage stuff...guys who never charged $100 a sig or did reality shows. Yellowed index cards with pictures pasted on instead of flashy, hologrammed 8x10s. Born about a decade too early, I guess...

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Posted By: william

Don't even get me going on what has become of my beloved Red Sox. The constant barrage of "official" merchandise is out of control. Those of you in New England have probably seen the commercials for Wise potato chips, makers of the "Official Cheez Doodle of the Boston Red Sox". WTF??? Consider me "Officially checked out".

Fortunately, I have my vintage stuff to keep me sufficiently distracted. You guys, and your vast knowledge of things that I didn't even know existed have kept me from going mental. Long live vintage!

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

I have to agree. Outside of visits to oldtimers' homes (where the interview process was the top priority), I don't think I've requested a baseball autograph in-person for more than 10 years, perhaps longer.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Couldn't agree more.

And, should you for some reason obtain a modern-day player autograph, you'd have no idea whose it was anyway. Have you seen a team-signed ball these days? You can't decipher a single name.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Oops. Double post.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

This is just one guy's opinion, but, unless you are a completest or die-hard fan, why on earth would you even desire a modern-day autograph? Besides being indecipherable, it's not like any player these days will ever be rare. Look at a guy like Steve Bechler, who passed away less than a year after his debut, or Dernell Stenson, for that matter, who was tragically killed the very same year in which he first set foot on the hallowed grasses of Fenway. Before their untimely deaths, these young men signed literally hundreds (if not thousands) of insert cards which can still be obtained at a nominal fee. Sure, a 3X5 will go for far more given the rarity of a modern-day player to grant a 3X5 request, but the point is that the signature itself will never be rare. The last "rare" players due to early death (prior to the advent of signed insert cards) have to be Cliff Young and Williams Suero. Despite toiling in the minors for nearly a decade, Suero is the toughest of the two, and it doesn't help that he is of Dominican heritage. Just as the future has no more room for 300-win pitchers, the term "rare modern-day autograph" has also gone the way of eight track tapes and Clara Bow's career once "talkies" became en vogue. The player who is the dividing line between the old and new schools appears to be John LeRoy, who only pitched one game for the '97 Braves and died on an operating table less than four years later at the age of 26. There exist some signed minor league insert cards, although the amount of these issued was not as great as those featuring the autographs of guys like Bechler and Stenson.

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Posted By: William

Up until a few years ago, simply being a fan was reason enough for me. Though your point is well taken. Numerous factors have ultimately led to my self-removal from the autograph scene. Not the least of which are the skyrocketing prices. Jacoby Ellsbury and Clay Buchholz killed it for me. Two players, who last winter had a combined 37 games of MLB experience, each charging more than most Hall of Fame members. Rare or not, that business smells a lot like the baseball card market in 1990.

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Posted By: J. McMurry

Amazing how this thread's subject has morphed,but I do agree about the modern autographs lack of appeal. I remember the hullabalu greg Jeffries started in 1988 by charging $10 an autograph, and today I doubt many people could tell you who greg Jeffries was. I know Mr. mint is considered a joke on this board,but he wrote the best bit of advice I've ever read in regards to collecting, "Avoid the feeding frenzy".

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Posted By: J. McMurry

Jodi,

Do you recall if John Leroy spent any time with the Braves' AA club in Greenville?

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Jody,

According to my records, LeRoy went 6-6 with Greenville during 1996-97.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

What about collecting for the sake of enjoyment? I still obtain autographs in person of the local minor league team...I try to get as many autographs as I can on an official American Association baseball and for the "Star" players I try to get single signed baseballs.

These will never be worth a lot, but they give me enjoyment. I agree though that modern players signatures can be very difficult to read...anyone want to take a guess as to who the two single signed baseballs are signed by? Both career minor leaguers, but they both had outstanding hitting statistics.



How about a Lou Limmer on a Western League ball from 1949 - he set a team record for homers that year with 29. A record he held for only 7 years before Dick Stuart smashed it.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

By all means, do what makes you happy! Collecting rare signatures is what always did it for me. More power to you if obtaining modern-day players can still bring you joy.

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Posted By: J. McMurry

oh I still love to snag some autographs at the minor league ball park, and I landed some players years ago that are making a name for themselves in the ML now, such as Josh hamilton, carl crawford,corey patterson, c.c. sabathia. That is fun.

The weird thing is now, I would not pay for any of their autographs. (unless maybe they were "slam-dunk" hall of famers with reasonable fees)

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I should note that I don't pay to get any player's autograph nor would I ever again...I have only payed to get a players autograph once and that was Don Sutton's and he was such an ass that it made the autograph virtually worthless to me. I have obtained autographs from major leaguers who were giving them for free and each time it was pleasant. Jim Palmer, Ozzie Smith, Bret Saberhagen, and Tom Gordon all showed up locally at one point or another to signings and were not charging. And of course the former major leaguers who have played or managed for Lincoln always sign for free and all have been pleasant..including Tim Johnson, Pete LaCock, and Felix Jose just to name a few that were with Lincoln this year.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

That's surprising about Sutton. I had always heard good things. At the last report I was given, he was one of only a few HOFers who signed through the mail without asking for compensation (although this may have changed).

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Posted By: J. McMurry

I too am surprised about Sutton. I also met him at a show(about 15 years back)and he was great,answered my questions in detail and was funny. I know it's a crap shoot as to what you're gonna get when you meet these guys on any given day. my buddy told me the story of when he met Willie Stargell at the local minor league ball park, willie signed for him, then rudely blew off a little kid just a few feet away. My friend ripped up his card right there and threw it away. ( I know, he shoulda gave it to the kid,but he probably didnt want it either after that episode)

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

This was at a show in Lincoln probably about 20 years ago now...I paid something like $10 for two autographs and I got a single signed baseball and I had an 8X10...I made the mistake of asking for a personalization on the photo for my brother-in-law. He uttered a swear word and looked at the guy next to him (Handler?, agent? bodyguard?) asked me what I wanted on it then signed and slid it across the table without looking at me.

Jim Palmer and Ozzie Smith tie for the nicest baseball guys I've met..both held conversations without any prompting from me and Palmer asked me how many autographs I wanted. He was signing at a local dept. store when he was pimping his Jockey underwear line. I got two autos that day one on his 83 Topps card and the other on a generic card that he provided...I turned down his offer of a signed mini-poster of him in his underwear.

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Posted By: DJ

I as well have grown tired of the greed of the current ball player, but they are most certainly not to blame and in most instances, treat the fans outside the ballpark awaiting a signature for a future star in the same manner as they would in the pre-Steiner days. There are some differences of course. Phil Hughes signed up a storm following a Scranton game, but told me that due to an agreement with a memorabilia company, he wasn't allowed to sign on the sweet spot. Of course when people like Hughes (or $100+ for Kershaw with Steiner) sign on the side for big dollars, are we to blame them? Especially when they become the next Ruben Mateo or Alex Escobar. How many games did Phil Hughes win this year? I believe as many as I won.

In regards to the original post...the beauty of the autograph and what keep forgers in business is it's simply words against words (a bunch of opinions) and I would highly doubt (HIGHLY DOUBT) that any vintage signed T206 exists in authentic form. I have seen a few forgeries (from the likes of Waddell to Jennings to even Chance) and it's comical and exist only to fool those who like to pay little to believe they have a "deal" and will go through the rest of their lives in total denial.

DJ

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Let me get this straight DJ...you don't think ANY autographed T206's are authentic?

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Posted By: DJ

Dan,

No, that's not what I'm saying. My bad. Perhaps I should have noted that my opinion revolves around cards signed shortly after their playing careers came to an end maybe limiting that timeframe to the 1950's and 1960's. We have all seen authentic pen signatures of those who passed away in the 1970's (Parent, Livingstone, Flick, a horde of Marquard's), but are there many common signed fountain pen examples of the lesser guys who may have perished before it was vogue to locate addresses of obscure players and have them pen something outside of a three by five card? There are exceptions to every rule and super collector Jeff Morey is one (Cicotte, Young and Cobb), but highly, highly unlikely that Donlin exists as well as many around that time frame and that obscure nature.

I remember back in 1999, one seller had a small quantity of signed T206's, of all the "toughies" including Chance, Waddell etc. and admitted that they were not authentic and signed instead by what appeared to be a child's scrawl. That lot sold cheaply ($100), but then flipped by a seller who failed to tell the potential bidders when he broke it up, that they were not authentic and turned what would be probably $10,000 worth of signatures at the time from a modest $100 investment into a what would be a $500 profit.

DJ

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

I think DJ is reiterating what I had expressed earlier. If so, then he is also correct.

As a private response to my comments expressed in this thread, I received an email from a good friend who has been an autograph collector for nearly 60 years. He told me that he is kicking himself for not sending out T-types to be signed, despite the fact that he had them at the time (1950's) and he actually did write the Cobbs, Lajoies and Youngs (as well as the Warhops, Marquards and Flicks) for autographs at that time. I can't help but to say that his regret is shared by the both of us!

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

"...Parent, Livingstone, Flick..."

Dr. Paddy, I presume? Either way, he should get off the "e".

(My apologies--I can't resist a bad joke.)

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Posted By: DJ

Yeah, totally lame Jodi.

In saying what I said, I was directed to Verk's latest auction where someone between 1927 and 1939 got obscure player Ed Sothoron to sign an E126 card. That same person said that he sent Cobb a T205 card to get signed, only to never see it again. Maybe it was during that "stamp hording" phase that CObb went through.

DJ

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

The player's name is Allen Sothoron (sometimes spelled "Allan"). Actually, I indirectly referred to that card earlier on in this very thread.

Cobb's "hoarding" phase was likely the product of the imagination of a financially-strapped Al Stump. I don't think Cobb ever purposely turned down a mail request (unless a collector wrote him multiple times).

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Posted By: Rhys

Jodi

If I understand your sarcasm correctly, I totally agree with you about Al Stump. I dont think Cobb was 1/10th as bad a man as Al Stump made him appear. Cobb had his problems and his demons all of which are understandable for someone who spent his entire childhood searching for the love of his father, only to learn his own mother blow his head off. But Cobb is incorrectly labeled as a raging racist and horrible man mostly due to the work of Al Stump rather than factual accounts and that is sad.

Rhys