SPORTS CARD RADIO (anonymus PSA "insider")

[slidekellyslide]

The registry guys have so much money tied up in PSA cards that I believe there will be a shift to an acceptance of altered cards. Especially if the number of altered cards reported is true. Sure, some will leave but it’s never really been about the cards for a lot of them IMO, it’s the number and the competition. PSA knows this and that’s why they’re seemingly paying no attention to this scandal.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

The registry guys have so much money tied up in PSA cards that I believe there will be a shift to an acceptance of altered cards. Especially if the number of altered cards reported is true. Sure, some will leave but it’s never really been about the cards for a lot of them IMO, it’s the number and the competition. PSA knows this and that’s why they’re seemingly paying no attention to this scandal.

Exactly where I think this is headed.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

The registry guys have so much money tied up in PSA cards that I believe there will be a shift to an acceptance of altered cards. Especially if the number of altered cards reported is true. Sure, some will leave but it’s never really been about the cards for a lot of them IMO, it’s the number and the competition. PSA knows this and that’s why they’re seemingly paying no attention to this scandal.

100% spot on!! I’ve said this from day one ....Registry And to a Lesser extent Pop report Fuel Newport Beaches arrogance and Blow Off nothing to see here mantra.....Registry Has Been And Sadly Will Continue to their Number 1 Money making machine. I’d say it’s been the biggest money maker in the industry.

It’s very sad....If altered cards become acceptable this industry is toast

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

The registry guys have so much money tied up in PSA cards that I believe there will be a shift to an acceptance of altered cards. Especially if the number of altered cards reported is true. Sure, some will leave but it’s never really been about the cards for a lot of them IMO, it’s the number and the competition. PSA knows this and that’s why they’re seemingly paying no attention to this scandal.

Not sure I agree with this IF (I) it becomes generally accepted that a majority of high grade pre war cards are altered and (2) the hobby presents another alternative of grading cards whereby it is believed the cards graded by this other method are not altered.

If a new TPG comes into being using technology to detect alterations and becomes the accepted way of grading, then cards graded under the old method will lose value, as well as be regarded as tainted. The registry is to satisfy a person's need to brag. I question how much bragging can be done if that altered 8 is matched up against an unaltered 8, as measured by the different grading slabs the two cards are in.

Let's go back to that cocktail party where a person is showing off his high grade cards to his society friends. In the midst of the presentation some guest in a high pitched voice asks the host why he doesn't have them re slabbed in that new slab the guest saw at last week's cocktail party, which slab was accompanied by that Wall Street Journal article which states this new grading method has a 99% success rate of detecting alterations for 8's and higher, versus the reputed 22% success rate under the old grading methods. Where is that fly on the wall when you need it?

It all comes down to bragging, which IMO is a function of how much awareness people have of the alteration problem and the grading alternatives to detect them.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Not sure I agree with this IF (I) it becomes generally accepted that a majority of high grade pre war cards are altered and (2) the hobby presents another alternative of grading cards whereby it is believed the cards graded by this other method are not altered.

If a new TPG comes into being using technology to detect alterations and becomes the accepted way of grading, then cards graded under the old method will lose value, as well as be regarded as tainted. The registry is to satisfy a person's need to brag. I question how much bragging can be done if that altered 8 is matched up against an unaltered 8, as measured by the different grading slabs the two cards are in.

Let's go back to that cocktail party where a person is showing off his high grade cards to his society friends. In the midst of the presentation some guest in a high pitched voice asks the host why he doesn't have them re slabbed in that new slab the guest saw at last week's cocktail party, which slab was accompanied by that Wall Street Journal article which states this new grading method has a 99% success rate of detecting alterations for 8's and higher, versus the reputed 22% success rate under the old grading methods. Where is that fly on the wall when you need it?

It all comes down to bragging, which IMO is a function of how much awareness people have of the alteration problem and the grading alternatives to detect them.

I agree and was thinking along this line. If the current grading companies do nothing (and that's basically what PSA wants to do), and a new company or used technology and methodology is used to identify unaltered cards, the will change things drastically. Especially with high end cards, the old grades may become obsolete or considered lesser-- especially if and when the new technology and methodology demonstrates that many of the registry cards are altered.

Futher, and as I've said before, it takes only a percentage of collectors, investors, PSA registry people to drop out to change their minds and/or drop out fot the bottom to fall out. And I believe that a percentage of people WILL change their tunes about PSA graded cards.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by drcy

I agree and was thinking along this line. If the current grading companies do nothing (and that's basically what PSA wants to do), and a new company or used technology and methodology is used to identify unaltered cards, the will change things drastically. Especially with high end cards, the old grades may become obsolete or considered lesser-- especially if and when the new technology and methodology demonstrates that many of the registry cards are altered.

Futher, and as I've said before, it takes only a percentage of collectors, investors, PSA registry people to drop out to change their minds and/or drop out fot the bottom to fall out. And I believe that a percentage of people WILL change their tunes about PSA graded cards.

Whatever happened to all of the GAI graded cards? That's PSA's future as I stated more than 5 plus years ago. We will all have so much fun cracking the PSA slabs for the new slab company. So much FUN@!!! I don't know about you guys but I can't wait to crack all the slabs and re submit...kinda like they do now.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Whatever happened to all of the GAI graded cards? That's PSA's future as I stated more than 5 plus years ago. We will all have so much fun cracking the PSA slabs for the new slab company. So much FUN@!!! I don't know about you guys but I can't wait to crack all the slabs and re submit...kinda like they do now.

I thought that is why they change flips and slabs. Then say how great the new ones are and how there "might" be problems with the older version(s).

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Not sure I agree with this IF (I) it becomes generally accepted that a majority of high grade pre war cards are altered and (2) the hobby presents another alternative of grading cards whereby it is believed the cards graded by this other method are not altered.

If a new TPG comes into being using technology to detect alterations and becomes the accepted way of grading, then cards graded under the old method will lose value, as well as be regarded as tainted. The registry is to satisfy a person's need to brag. I question how much bragging can be done if that altered 8 is matched up against an unaltered 8, as measured by the different grading slabs the two cards are in.

Let's go back to that cocktail party where a person is showing off his high grade cards to his society friends. In the midst of the presentation some guest in a high pitched voice asks the host why he doesn't have them re slabbed in that new slab the guest saw at last week's cocktail party, which slab was accompanied by that Wall Street Journal article which states this new grading method has a 99% success rate of detecting alterations for 8's and higher, versus the reputed 22% success rate under the old grading methods. Where is that fly on the wall when you need it?

It all comes down to bragging, which IMO is a function of how much awareness people have of the alteration problem and the grading alternatives to detect them.

Why does the guest have a high pitched voice? Is this a commentary on registry collectors, or just people who would actually brag about baseball cards at a cocktail party?

[drcy]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

The registry guys have so much money tied up in PSA cards that I believe there will be a shift to an acceptance of altered cards. Especially if the number of altered cards reported is true. Sure, some will leave but it’s never really been about the cards for a lot of them IMO, it’s the number and the competition. PSA knows this and that’s why they’re seemingly paying no attention to this scandal.

I believe if there is technology and methodology to identify unaltered cards and those that are altered, then this won't be true.

Side by side, the unaltered version will always be more prized and higher valued, and, in comparison, the altered cards will be considered lesser.

There may be more acceptance and conscious collecting of altered cards because they are so commonplace, but the unaltered cards will become the prized cards, and the altered cards will be considered second tier.

And there will be a taint and questioning of those "high end" collections and collectors who don't have their cards examined by the new technology.

The first time some rich guy presents an unaltered set, and such a set is auctioned off by REA or Heritage or whomever, that will set the new standard. All that all PSA stuff will be questioned and considered lesser.

Futher, many PSA registry people may be collecting the numbers, but once it's shown and generally considered by the hobby that these numbers are at the least unreliable, and at the most false, I think even that number collecting $$ money will change and, at least, soften. There's nothing to brag about if the general hobby scoffs at the numbers.

I think that PSA's current, and usual, approach of doing nothing and hoping it just blows over, will doom them. Because the cows have now left the barn.

Duly note that, even on the PSA forum, many posters are saying they are not buying graded cards, will never buy from PWCC, and or at least delaying buying graded cards until they see how things work out-- and this is from PSA's board.

[slidekellyslide]

I really don't think anyone will be able to take on PSA and the registry. Brent was either prescient with his alteration/conservation post back in June or maybe he knew something was coming around the bend?? Tee Hee... Anyway the trend will be towards acceptance of alterations. Perhaps there will be a limit to what will be acceptable but it's coming. Guaranteed. I will also guarantee that if someone at another grading service or a new grading service offers up 99.9% fraud detection in their slabs that PSA will adopt every one of those detections and the new company will wither and die in short order.

The registry drives the money in this hobby.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I really don't think anyone will be able to take on PSA and the registry. Brent was either prescient with his alteration/conservation post back in June or maybe he knew something was coming around the bend?? Tee Hee... Anyway the trend will be towards acceptance of alterations. Perhaps there will be a limit to what will be acceptable but it's coming. Guaranteed. I will also guarantee that if someone at another grading service or a new grading service offers up 99.9% fraud detection in their slabs that PSA will adopt every one of those detections and the new company will wither and die in short order.

The registry drives the money in this hobby.

Putting aside the question of PSA adopting a method to establish that many of their previously slabbed cards have now been objectively determined to have been altered (thus bringing to the fore liability under their grading warranty), there is something called patent protection.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Putting aside the question of PSA adopting a method to establish that many of their previously slabbed cards have now been objectively determined to have been altered (thus bringing to the fore liability under their grading warranty), there is something called patent protection.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if PSA is already working on it themselves or already know exactly what to do to detect many of these alterations. You do bring up a good point about their warranty though and opening them up to liability. They don't seem too concerned about it at the moment though...at least publicly.

[barrysloate]

I really don't believe that because nothing is being done now and it's business as usual this story is over. Somebody is going to look at this as a golden opportunity to build a better mousetrap, and to enter the third party grading business with technology that is capable of exposing all of these altered cards. Then anybody who tries to sell an altered card in a slab will find that no auction house will accept it unless it's clearly stated in the lot description something along the lines of "this card was once deemed an 8 but now has been revealed as having the corners built up." As such, those cards will be dead in the water.

Maybe business as usual today, but this will end very badly. And the registry will offer no protection.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I really don't believe that because nothing is being done now and it's business as usual this story is over. Somebody is going to look at this as a golden opportunity to build a better mousetrap, and to enter the third party grading business with technology that is capable of exposing all of these altered cards. Then anybody who tries to sell an altered card in a slab will find that no auction house will accept it unless it's clearly stated in the lot description something along the lines of "this card was once deemed an 8 but now has been revealed as having the corners built up." As such, those cards will be dead in the water.

Maybe business as usual today, but this will end very badly. And the registry will offer no protection.

Beware the Ides of March!!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I really don't believe that because nothing is being done now and it's business as usual this story is over. Somebody is going to look at this as a golden opportunity to build a better mousetrap, and to enter the third party grading business with technology that is capable of exposing all of these altered cards. Then anybody who tries to sell an altered card in a slab will find that no auction house will accept it unless it's clearly stated in the lot description something along the lines of "this card was once deemed an 8 but now has been revealed as having the corners built up." As such, those cards will be dead in the water.

Maybe business as usual today, but this will end very badly. And the registry will offer no protection.

I hope you are right.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I really don't believe that because nothing is being done now and it's business as usual this story is over. Somebody is going to look at this as a golden opportunity to build a better mousetrap, and to enter the third party grading business with technology that is capable of exposing all of these altered cards. Then anybody who tries to sell an altered card in a slab will find that no auction house will accept it unless it's clearly stated in the lot description something along the lines of "this card was once deemed an 8 but now has been revealed as having the corners built up." As such, those cards will be dead in the water.

Maybe business as usual today, but this will end very badly. And the registry will offer no protection.

I agree, except I think the altered cards will be worth less rather than dead in the water. Worth less not worthless.

I've long said I thinking pricing and valuation of the cards will change, in various ways.

Even if altered card are accepted, I don't think theer will be the same cache (cash) between, say, a 9 and a 10.

Another question to ponder is, if PSA can identify alterations (someday), how will they treat resubmitted cards? If they are able to identify all the alterations they previously missed, how will the deal with all the misgraded cards out there? Perhaps they hope they are unable to better identify alterations in the future.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Putting aside the question of PSA adopting a method to establish that many of their previously slabbed cards have now been objectively determined to have been altered (thus bringing to the fore liability under their grading warranty), there is something called patent protection.

And there is a patent on a new digital , computer based grading system...I've just been wondering if that group is getting ready to introduce it or maybe sell the technology to PSA...

The patent paperwork or link to it was posted here maybe a year ago by Peter Spaeth I believe? Several lawyers out of California and some former Microsoft engineers...

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I really don't think anyone will be able to take on PSA and the registry. Brent was either prescient with his alteration/conservation post back in June or maybe he knew something was coming around the bend?? Tee Hee... Anyway the trend will be towards acceptance of alterations. Perhaps there will be a limit to what will be acceptable but it's coming. Guaranteed. I will also guarantee that if someone at another grading service or a new grading service offers up 99.9% fraud detection in their slabs that PSA will adopt every one of those detections and the new company will wither and die in short order.

The registry drives the money in this hobby.

Past behavior is indicative of future behavior.....

Agree +1

[CurtisFlood]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I really don't think anyone will be able to take on PSA and the registry. Brent was either prescient with his alteration/conservation post back in June or maybe he knew something was coming around the bend?? Tee Hee... Anyway the trend will be towards acceptance of alterations. Perhaps there will be a limit to what will be acceptable but it's coming. Guaranteed. I will also guarantee that if someone at another grading service or a new grading service offers up 99.9% fraud detection in their slabs that PSA will adopt every one of those detections and the new company will wither and die in short order.

The registry drives the money in this hobby.

Imagine the registry guys trying to replace all the colored, altered, trimmed cards in their sets. Mission impossible.

[bosoxphan]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

The registry guys have so much money tied up in PSA cards that I believe there will be a shift to an acceptance of altered cards. Especially if the number of altered cards reported is true. Sure, some will leave but it’s never really been about the cards for a lot of them IMO, it’s the number and the competition. PSA knows this and that’s why they’re seemingly paying no attention to this scandal.

Think you’re right in the long run but it’s gotta be disclosed and the price reflects that. Comic books alterations/conservation are accepted but the book has a different color flip and the alterations are listed. And the book sells for a fraction of the price.