Would JSA or PSA not pass a card that was signed in person for any reason?

[jbsports33]

Recently sent in a autograph card to PSA and JSA that was signed in person in the early 1970s, both told me it would not pass, has this ever happened to anyone else. Have the program and other autos that had been signed that day, could another player have signed it for kids, without a kid seeing it? This was a friend that was about 9 yours old at the time and the signed card was his favorite player, his family told me he had it signed, but he passed away recently.

Jimmy

[packs]

Sometimes people remember things differently than they happened. Maybe the other materials were signed that day but not the card. Maybe the card was a through the mail thing and wasn't signed by the player even though after time the owner remembered having it done in person. Never know.

[whitey19thcentury]

a collector acquaintance of mine knows someone who goes to most of the major PGA tourneys. He got 3 Tiger Woods signed items in person at these events. About 7-8 years ago, he sent them to a major 3rd party authenticator. 2 came back as authentic/slabbed, the other was deemed not real.

Go figure

[jbsports33]

Thanks for the feedback, I can understand not having a good memory as a kid, but if this was your favorite player I would want to look him in the eye. It seems to be tough call, because I have mixed feelings and opinions - some good even after the PSA and JSA results. I wish I could post a picture, but the family has it now

Jimmy

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by packs

Sometimes people remember things differently than they happened.

True.

But sometimes the authenticators don't know what they're talking about.

[HRBAKER]

Maybe PSA/DNA is wrong. WOuldn't be the first time.

[jbsports33]

Which is why I am commenting about this, because some dealers that I trust and know did feel the history of the item and the signature looked okay. There was a lot of positives about this before hand. I do know that all the cards had been signed the same day all from the same year and team. I tend to have an idea myself, but I am no expert with autos and thought having some of the best look at it would be at least helpful

Jimmy

[Vintagedegu]

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[MooseDog]

I have a signed Thurman Munson card I got in person in Oakland as a kid that was not passed by both JSA and PSA. I wanted to sell the card as I needed the cash, but all it did was put me further in the hole as they don't refund fees if items don't pass...

[Griffins]

There was a documentary on JSA, where he didn't pass a Sal Bando autograph that was signed a few feet away. If you search on the old board there should be some info on there. Perhaps on an HBO special?
I've had a few friends that have had stuff signed in person that was rejected as well.
Bottom line is that is an opinion, and not always the best one at that. You should be able to find a lot of info on this if you run a few searches.

[Lordstan]

Anthony,
The story you are talking about goes a little differently.
The reporter and crew got a picture signed by Bando, who was at the show. JSA was there doing show autograph authentication. The crew then filmed the reporter signing a blank picture of Bando in the parking lot. She used the real one as a guide.
The reporter then went back to the authenticator table, who glanced quickly at the sig. He told her she looked honest and gave her a cert.
Right after that, they showed the video to the authenticator, who had no defense. They even showed it to bando, who was, needless to say, shocked.

Mark

[Griffins]

Mark- thanks for the clarification. Certainly damning, and it seems hobby authenticators are not held to the same standards of competence that forensic ones are.

[perezfan]

There is more to that story than can be quickly summed up here. Bando was signing at that very show (a few feet away), and nobody in their right mind would forge a nearly worthless Sal Bando autograph. It was a complete set-up...

Of course the guy who OK'd it was lackadaisical, negligent and needlessly cocky. But that was one person- who I would wager is no longer employed by Spence (I don't know for sure, however).

If the autograph in question was of greater value or scarcity, it would have received far more scrutiny by the authenticators. While the Bando example was inexcusable, I do not believe it is indicative of 99% of the material that Spence or PSA evaluates.

That said... mistakes are still made and it is not a perfect science.

[jbsports33]

Thank you for all the feedback, I am usually helping others on the site, but sometimes it’s nice to be on the other side of things

and yes I remember the Bando issue, this was not the first time I have had issues, and all the comments are great to read and give me perspective that I am not crazy here. I trust the family very much and I am just trying to help them out

Jimmy

[yanksfan09]

I think with both hobby and forensic authenticators you have to realize it's just another opinion, and hopefully a somewhat educated one....

It's impossible for anyone to be 100% right all of the time when they are not there seeing the signature signed themselves.

You just have to educate yourself, first of all and after that go with who you trust the most. We all know of the better authenticators and others with a much worse reputation.

I would also agree, that that whole Sal Bando thing was just a complete set-up and it would never cross someone's mind that someone would forge his sig... It would have held more weight if the undercover reporter forged a bigger name auto.

Either way, 3rd party authentication will never be 100% accurate. The best we can do is try to expose and erradicate the true scammers and crooked authenticators and put our trust into (hopefully) some of the top minds and more trustworthy companies and individuals.

[Frank A]

Autograph authenticators are the biggest piles of crap in the hobby. Its nothing but a scam and good auto's for their buddys and the auction houses. What a joke they are.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Frank A

Autograph authenticators are the biggest piles of crap in the hobby. Its nothing but a scam and good auto's for their buddys and the auction houses. What a joke they are.

That is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Perhaps you've been burned a time or two and lost some money as a result. Most of us who collect autos have, and subsequently learn from it.

But from what I have seen personally, the respected authenticators (PSA, Spence, Keating, Gutierrez, Albersheim, Simon) get it right at least 90% of the time. It is sometimes difficult to remain objective when we don't like the results. Just my opinion...

[tinkereversandme]

Sure it's not 100%, but what is an acceptable rate of making errors? If the big authenticators are incorrect 20% of the time, that means for every 10,000they authenticate, 2,000 of them are no good. I have seen way too many circumstances as mentioned where good signatures are failed which essentially makes them worthless and too many bad autographs that are passed as legit. It's an avil that is necessary in today's collecting world and I wish these guys could realize with an extended data base of examples that the item that they are looking at is the real deal.

Regards,

Larry

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by Frank A

Autograph authenticators are the biggest piles of crap in the hobby. Its nothing but a scam and good auto's for their buddys and the auction houses. What a joke they are.

Frank, what is your solution on something like a Gehrig, Ruth, etc? Blind faith? JSA, PSA, Albersheim, Simon, etc have made a mostly strong reputation by getting it right most of the time, someone has to be relied on.

You could use Forensic document guys who get it wrong more often that not, oftentimes VERY wrong. There's a reason some of them aren't accepted.

With any player, unless you get the sig in person, there is some type of "leap of faith". But, having confidence in what you buy, and who authenticates it means a lot.

I mean, I could look at a Mathewson and give an opinion? Would I be right? Maybe, but Id still rather have some of the respected authenticators look, as that is their business and what they do for a living.

[drc]

I always wondered about the case study that involves a reporter forging a Sal Bando autograph. First, in the real world who would forge a Sal Bando autograph for submission to JSA or PSA? Just seemed like a strange to unlikely scenario that would exist only on a tv show. Perhaps the only person who would even come up with the serious idea of going to a Sal Bando signing to forge a Sal Bando autograph would be that reporter or her editor. And Second, I found it somehow troubling on some level a reporter forging autographs. Just didn't sit well with me.

Not making excuses for JSA. They clearly made an error.

[scooter729]

Originally Posted by perezfan

There is more to that story than can be quickly summed up here. Bando was signing at that very show (a few feet away), and nobody in their right mind would forge a nearly worthless Sal Bando autograph. It was a complete set-up...

Of course the guy who OK'd it was lackadaisical, negligent and needlessly cocky. But that was one person- who I would wager is no longer employed by Spence (I don't know for sure, however).

As an FYI, the employee who OK'd it - Larry - is still with JSA. I saw him at the Boston show last week. I know him from years ago and he is great with autographs - we actually both got started by collecting autographs together at Fenway Park and the various Boston hotels in the '80s - he just got caught in a really bad setup and looked horrible in the process.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

Frank, what is your solution on something like a Gehrig, Ruth, etc? Blind faith? JSA, PSA, Albersheim, Simon, etc have made a mostly strong reputation by getting it right most of the time, someone has to be relied on.

You could use Forensic document guys who get it wrong more often that not, oftentimes VERY wrong. There's a reason some of them aren't accepted.

With any player, unless you get the sig in person, there is some type of "leap of faith". But, having confidence in what you buy, and who authenticates it means a lot.

I mean, I could look at a Mathewson and give an opinion? Would I be right? Maybe, but Id still rather have some of the respected authenticators look, as that is their business and what they do for a living.

I think the issue is the science involved in authenticating an autograph. It's like advertising for food, where they say eating this food reducing your chances for heart attack, and the FDA made them remove these statements. If autograph authentication is only 90% accurate, in a way, that should be stated somewhere so that the buyer/seller know that upfront rather than trust it 99%. This is as opposed to grading cards for quality and authenticity where there is more science involved, i.e, using black light, 30X magnification, etc. I guess I don't really know how autograph authenticators work, but if they are just eyeballing autographs and/or comparing to existing genuine ones, I really don't think that is enough.

[Exhibitman]

To answer the initial question, yes, it happened to me.

Unfortunately, circumstances can really affect a signature. Take these two Lennox Lewis sigs--I got the Kayo card signed myself at a Lewis promotional appearance before the Klitschko fight and a friend got the ticket signed backstage at an HBO telecast:

[Frank A]

How about a beautiful Ruth ball I sold a few years ago. The man who bought it took it to one of these so called authenticators. Oh, that ball is no good, bad auto. The guy comes back to me with it and I asked him what asshole said it was no good. The person must be an idiot. He told me. If the so called expert was in front of me I would have choked him. I have seen plenty of nice Ruth sigs, and this was one. Nice early sig on a red and blue stiched ball. I gave the guy his money back, as I am a legit guy. I then decided to send it to one of the auction houses. WALAA. It was Authenticated. A MIRACLE!!!!!!!!!!! I made less money on the ball but is was magicly real. You can take all these specialists and send them to hell. PHONIES, all of them.

[jbsports33]

I do have respect for most in the hobby including authenticators and the companies. I was not trying to start a problem and I have been studying autos for a few years now and I understand it’s all about opinions. I just wish there was more consistency for the little guy, because I do think the auction houses get the upper hand. Maybe there is favoritism and there are issues and I have had more issues with autos then any other collectible, I just wish it was easier to sell and buy them without the hassles.

Jimmy

[Scott Garner]

With regards to professional authentication (opinion) companies like PSA and JSA:
Please let me state upfront, I believe that companies like these have value to the collector, especially when it comes to a big $$ signature. As several have already stated, they don't always get the "opinion" part right because they are human.

IMHO, experience has taught me when it comes to collecting signatures that you didn't actually get yourself:

Buy from dealer that you know well and trust. Legit guys always stand behind the sale. Some of the best autograph dealers that I would recommend include: Phil Marks, Bill Corcoran, Jim Stinson, Rhys Yeakley and Kevin Keating.

Take the time and responsibility to educate yourself on what a player's signature looks like prior to adding it to your collection.

When it comes time to determining the necessity that a signature be "legitimized" by a professional authentication company, use common sense. What is the liklihood that a particular player's autograph will be forged? If the liklihood is minimal, what is the value in spending the time/energy/money to have an "opinion" rendered on a sig? Sadly, there are collectors out there that feel that EVERY signature must have somebody like PSA or JSA authenticate it.