Revisiting the 1910 PC805 Novelty Cutlery Postcard set.

[rainier2004]

Also, as Phil pointed out, the Collins and Crawford look like the images were shot the same day at the same spot. That spot could be Bennett Park in 1909 as Philly came into town 3 times that year and these guys played each other. Doesn't look like Bennett to me though and their meetings were in summer and not spring and everyone has the long sleeves and all.

By 1909 teams were playing in Hot Springs including Philly and Detroit. They had a second field built in 1909 to accommodate all the teams coming for spring training and in 1912 a third field went in. Maybe they were taken there? Wonder how many of these images were taken in spring training?

[phlflyer1]

Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities

I believe that the uniforms that Chase, Dooin, Johnson and Street all date from 1909 as well.

Hi Kevin,

Dooin is my lone type example and you are 100% correct that he is pictured in a 1909 uniform.

Phillies 1909 Uniforms
http://exhibits.baseballhalloffame.o...if&Entryid=148

Phillies 1900-1967 Uniforms
http://exhibits.baseballhalloffame.o...ement=68&pos=1

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

By 1909 teams were playing in Hot Springs including Philly and Detroit. They had a second field built in 1909 to accommodate all the teams coming for spring training and in 1912 a third field went in. Maybe they were taken there? Wonder how many of these images were taken in spring training?

I actually thought that hose images vlooked like they were taken in Hot Springs, AR too. I have not had a chance to do any research though. If they were taken in Spring Training, it is very hard to date the images by their uniforms as it was common for the players to wear uniforms from previous years. I have seen images of teams in Spring Training where the players are dressed in three, four and five different uniforms from past years.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities

I actually thought that hose images vlooked like they were taken in Hot Springs, AR too. I have not had a chance to do any research though. If they were taken in Spring Training, it is very hard to date the images by their uniforms as it was common for the players to wear uniforms from previous years. I have seen images of teams in Spring Training where the players are dressed in three, four and five different uniforms from past years.

Pics of those places are around, showing the left field wall from ground view was difficult to find. But yeah, spring training would throw the whole thing off like you said.

Im getting lost a bit, but Rick pointed out the spelling mistakes made. 805s had 4 spelling errors while the 796s only had Honas wrong, seems unlike then the 796s came first to only mess up 3 more players names after words.

Also, why are all the postmarks on the NCs in PA? I havent counted yet, but the 796 that just sold on ebay is also sent from PA.

[rainier2004]

The Cobb is the Frances Burke photo, no? Is there no date confirmation for this? Rick has all the info already laid out above, looks like it matches the 1905-07 pics I have. Where is this shot at? We know Burke took photos in 1907 of the team, assume this could be from the same shoot.

[Casey2296]

I like the double dots on Cobbs last name, seems like artistic license, much like the asterisk on the Speaker, no purpose other than a fun design.

[Baseball Rarities]

Yes, it is a Burke photo. I assume that it is from 1907. Same one used for some of his other cards like his 1915 Cracker Jack and 1922 E121 American Caramel. Like I have mentioned before, it is common for card manufacturers to use old photos for their cards.

Obviously, the year of the photo does not date the card. Despite what others may try and suggest, it just determines the earliest that a card could have been made.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities

Yes, it is a Burke photo. I assume that it is from 1907. Same one used for some of his other cards like his 1915 Cracker Jack and 1922 E121 American Caramel. Like I have mentioned before, it is common for card manufacturers to use old photos for their cards.

Obviously, the year of the photo does not date the card, it just determines the earliest that a card could have been made.

What are you talking about???!!! This is a bombshell!!! Proof that the Cracker Jack set is actually from 1907! Going to stand the hobby on its ear!

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I like the double dots on Cobbs last name, seems like artistic license, much like the asterisk on the Speaker, no purpose other than a fun design.

Dooin, Overall and Matty have the same dot...just so random? Man that glove looks huge!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I also think it's significant that the Novelty Cutlery company was located at their new factory at 67 Barr St in 1910 with an adjacent photo studio/gallery depicted in the lower left of the postcard Leon just acquired.

Thanks Phil. It has great clarity in hand.

.

[JK]

Originally Posted by rickalaska

Again, how does Walter "Johnston" (Johnson) and "Honas" (Honus) Wagner get misspelled in 1910?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I really don't find this to be a very persuasive argument for dating a set. Printing errors and misspelled names, even stars, were fairly common during that era. Look no further than the E98 Cy Young card which depicts Irv Young.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by JK

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I really don't find this to be a very persuasive argument for dating a set. Printing errors and misspelled names were fairly common during that era. Its like asking how does an E98 Cy Young card end depicting Irv Young? Clearly Cy Young was a well known star by the time that one slipped through some less than eagle eyed print editor.

I totally agree. Players’ names were misspelled all of the time. Christy Mathewson had his name misspelled “Matthewson” during his prime.

The postcard that misspells Wagner’s first name as “Honas” is the one with the image from the 1909 World Series, so the earliest that it could have been produced was then.

So, it makes no sense to posit that a name could be misspelled in late 1909 and not 1910.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

I totally agree. Players’ names were misspelled all of the time. Christy Mathewson had his name misspelled “Matthewson” during his prime.

The postcard that misspells Wagner’s first name as “Honas” is the one with the image from the 1909 World Series, so the earliest that it could have been produced was then.

So, it makes no sense to posit that a name could be misspelled in late 1909 and not 1910.

I don't find it that odd the names are misspelled, but 4 of the 25 cards are wrong including two of the first 5 HOFers. As Rick pointed out, NC is in Canton which is fairly close to Pittsburgh and Wagner and he is the only that is incorrect in both sets somehow.

But the 805s have a much more refined look to them. All the names are located on the bottom, very decorative border and publishing info added, consistent font and the 796s have none of this...but the 805s have 4 spelling errors while the 796s only have the one. And then the odd image crop on the Plank on the 796s...

[Casey2296]

In 1900, the U.S. high school graduation rate was six percent. During the 1910s in Canada, the highest level of education the average person completed was grade six.

It's not unreasonable to presume that the assistant in charge of the refined 805 set produced after the 796 may have been spelling challenged. My personal opinion is that both sets were produced by NC, I still have not come to grips with the idea of why a marketing company would not brand the 796.