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#1
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Richard
Greetings & Happy Easter to ALL. Does anyone know what card is considered the rookie card of Billy Martin? I look forward to some replies. |
#2
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Mike
1949 Remar Bread. I own one. The stats lists him as 5'10 1/2 and weigh 165. How much could be have gotten up to, if he had been a team mate of Sosa ? And would he have taken them? he really could have kicked the crap out of that marshmellow salesman..... |
#3
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
I have a very rough 1948 Signal Gas card of Alfred Manuel Martin, the Oaks Third Baseman. 5' 11" , 160. |
#4
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: daryle
the '52 Topps be his "ROOKIE" card since it he is shown with the Yankees?..........a major league team? IMO, a RC is the players first card as a Major Leaguer. Such as, I don't recognize the T210 Jackson or the Baltimore news card of Ruth as their "ROOKIE" cards but rather their "Minor League" cards...pre-rookie.....although I'd love to have either (still kick myself in the rear everytime I get in and out of the shower for not buying that T210 Jackson I found about 7-8 years ago....around GD-VG/VG for under $10K..........)...just my thoughts, not meant to start an argument or anything. |
#5
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: peter chao
Vintage Collectors, |
#6
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: jeffdrum
I doubt that the '33 Goudey will be regarded as Ruth's rookie card. But if it is, IMHO it is a pretty meaningless designation at that point. |
#7
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Dan Bretta
By what definition of 'Rookie card' does the 1933 Goudey Ruth fit? |
#8
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Mike
If the 33 Ruth is designated his rookie, then there really isn't any point in doing it at all. If someone can arbitrarily assign any card, or year they want to. Then I want Mantle's rookie card to be the Topps 1961 MVP card, because that is my favorite Mantle card. Makes as much sense as the 33 Goudey being Ruths rookie. Since when don't Ruths first 19 years in the league count ? Thats right he had played 19 years before the 33 Goudeys came out. (approximaely). And all the subsequesnt cards produced before 33. So I figure mantles 61 Topps MVP card should be his rookie card. |
#9
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: barrysloate
If you read the introductory paragraph in the Mastro catalog for the Sergio Delgado collection, you can learn something interesting about defining rookie cards. In short, there will always be debate as to what constitutes a rookie card, and collectors will never be in full agreement. |
#10
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Mark
'52 Topps and '52 Berk Ross. |
#11
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Paul
For vintage cards, why don't we just dump the label "rookie card" and substitute "first card"? Everyone then would agree that Kid Nichols' "first card" is his N172, and Joe DiMaggio's "first card" is his 1934 Zeenut. If someone wants to come up with a new designation like "first major league card" that's fine too. |
#12
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: dennis
peter how did becket justify the 1933 goudey as his rookie card??? |
#13
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Harrison
How could the 33 goudey be considered Ruth's rookie when there were mulitple sets that he was included in while he was on the yankees? |
#14
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Richard
Guys, I agree that it is absurd to consider the 1933 Goudey Ruth to be the rookie card. What gives Beckett the authority to make that decision? It simply dosen't make sense. Common sense tells you that something that sounds irrational usually is. This is sheer nonsense. If Beckett considers the 1933 Goudey his rookie then I say that his 1916 M101-5 is his minor league rookie card. Makes about as much sense. Give me a break and wake up Beckett. |
#15
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Ken W.
I agree with Paul. While I, myself, don't really play the "rookie card" game, I feel that if you're goal is to do that - THEN DO IT! Go after a guy's FIRST card. I mean, that seems to me to be the whole point. Personally, if I thought that I owned a player's rookie major league card, and then discovered that there was an earlier minor league card, I would be disappointed. I'd probably try to aquire the earlier card, rather than trying to justify why my card was somehow more "important." And while I agree that the 1990's teenage stuff is pretty silly, I still would probably consider those cards my goal, if I was really working on a rookie collection. |
#16
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: peter chao
Guys, |
#17
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Joann
Peter (or anyone that wants to ring in): |
#18
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Weren't the exhibit cards nationally distributed? |
#19
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Mark
Why should minor league cards be considered rookie cards only in the case of prewar? If you're going to rewrite the definition to classify zeenuts and minor league n172s as rookie cards, then why not be consistent and say Ken Griffey Jr.'s rookie is his San Bernardino Spirit AA card and so on? |
#20
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: peter chao
Guys, |
#21
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Blank backed cards are not considered "real" cards???? |
#22
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: jeffdrum
My guess is that most collectors (perhaps not investors) are not waiting for a publication or company to tell them what a "rookie" card is. Beckett has been a hobby powerhouse as you say for years. I would place as much confidence in their definition of a "rookie" card for prewar as I do in their pricing in their annual guide. If you want to collect a players first card appearance be it in a minor league uniform or major league - who cares what someone calls it? Collect what you want to collect. |
#23
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: peter chao
Dan, |
#24
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: jeffdrum
I guess I have missed this part. Can you show me any of the major auction houses who refer to any of the 4 1933 Goudey Ruth cards as a "Rookie" in any of their auction listings? Maybe they have, but I have not seen it. Take the Baltimore News Ruth "Schedule Card" for an example. You can argue that it isn't a rookie because it's a minor league issue, or it's not a rookie because it's not a "card", or that's it's not a "rookie" because it wasn't nationally distributed. What you can't argue is that most any collector would rather have it than a 1933 Goudey "rookie." All of course is MHO. |
#25
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Todd Schultz
"all I'm saying is that it is clear and gaining wide acceptance." |
#26
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: peter chao
Todd, |
#27
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Todd Schultz
you said it's gaining wide acceptance, now you say only time will tell. Show me where it has been accepted by anyone who knows anything about vintaqe cards--anyone. |
#28
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Jorge
While I dont consider myself an expert at anything, I have studied the rookie card argument for a few years. Much of it from lurking on the Net54 and listening to guys like Hal and others. I believe the term rookie card is a post war term. It was probably born sometime after Topps had a established themselves as a consistent company that produced cards which where uniformly similar year after year. The problem I have with using the normal definition on prewar cards is that it probably would eliminate over 95% of the sets created from having rookie card candidates. Even the 5% would be suspect. I guess the biggest contraversy would be, what are nationally distributed sets. I'm not sure. I guess if cards were distributed from one company to all the states that were around at the time I would call that national distribution. But what if it just distributed to 5 or ten. Is that regional. What if it distributed in a few cities on the East coast and a few on the west, is that national? I'm asking because I dont know. We are talking in some cases over 100 years ago when methods of distribution were not as advanced as they were after WWII...... I know that Breisch William cards are considered to be nationally distributed, but when you look at how many of those cards exist today it seems hard to believe. There are probably local issues that have more cards in circulation than the Breisch's. .............Everytime I hear an argument concerning prewar rookie cards it always starts off the same way. The first guy always declares, its the first card made of that person even if its a minor league card. Then someone else will ask what if the players first card is a team card with 10 or 12 other players. The first guy will think about it a while and say "Doesnt matter". Well what if the team card photo was taken so far away that you wouldnt know whose in the picture unless you read his name. Or what if the first card is 8"x12" or bigger. Or what if its made of paper, better yet made of silk, does that count. What if it came in a strip and was hand cut by the public. What if its a cabinet or CDV, and so on and so on. In the years I have observed the argument, it always ends up with the same conclusion, no agreement..............(TO be continued) |
#29
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: jeffdrum
Good post Jorge. And the point is that there will be no agreement and it is essentially futile to try to define "rookie" especially in light of prewar issues. |
#30
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Cobby33
There's really no agreement even with post-war issues. With dozens of issues coming out each year, it is nearly impossible to ascertain which card/year/issue was the "first" or the coveted "XRC." |
#31
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: JK
Jorge, |
#32
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Rooky13
...Thank you JK....The key to my system is that it doesn't deal in absolutes. It doesn't say that a minor league card, or an oversized card, or any type of card cant be a rookie. What it does say is that some 19th century HOFamer who is featured on a cabinet card as part of a minor league team, can be a rookie card, if it scores higher than his next best card, which is a 1989 commemorative. Or the best of two evils. |
#33
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: barrysloate
I believe the rookie card debate can be looked at on a card by card basis. |
#34
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
So is the answer to Richard's original inquiry the 1952 Topps and 1952 Berk Ross cards? |
#35
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: barrysloate
Frank- Jackson's T210 was actually issued after his E90-1, so it couldn't be his rookie card by any definition. |
#36
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Jorge
Hi Barry......I think the way in which you choose what is a rookie card is great! The problem I have with using the post-war definition on prewar cards is that by definition many of the prewar players dont have rookie cards.... Or then again by definition (I think) they just haven't come out yet. Maybe Topps will include them in one of their new sets. |
#37
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: barrysloate
Thanks Jorge. I think you've analyzed this subject more than anyone, since you have helped Sergio build his collection over the last few years. And I think it's an area that by definition there will always be differences of opinion. |
#38
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Jorge
Barry if you look at the catagories that I used in ranking prewar rookie cards, National distribution is not one of them. I felt that it was one of the postwar necessities that could not be used for prewar evaluation. Instead I used other catagories such as set, which penalizes single card creations, or single team sets, which were some of the local or regional creations of the time. |
#39
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: barrysloate
Jorge- I did note that Sergio had the N300 Kid Nichols. What demerits did you give the N172? That's just one of those cards that I disagree with common opinion. |
#40
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Jorge
Barry.... If Im reading you correctly you are saying that the O J N172 is in your opinion Nichols rookie card, because it came before the Mayo. The fact that its a minor league card is not big enough of a detractor to offset being the earlier card. I am also assuming that you prefer the 89 N172 over Nichols 1888-89 N173 Cabinet card maybe because the cabinet card is oversized or because it was purchase with coupons instead of being obtained as a bonus (premium) with the tobacco that was purchased, like the N172 was....I think you choose rookie cards the same way I do or my system does. The difference being that instead of subtracting 11 points for being a minor league card you only subtract 5. The fact that the cabinet card came slightly before the N172 probably does not offset the 11 points you took off for the way the cabinet was distributed plus the 5 points for being oversized and dont forget that its still a minor league card, -5.....I think you use the same rational as I do, we just weigh the catagories a little differently. |
#41
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Mike
People can rationalize till' the cows come home, but a rookie card is a players first card. The only real debate is whether or not a minor league card constitutes a rookie card. That I can see being debated. But to say that a players rookie card comes 19 years or so after he has been in the league, is rediculous. One grey area has been cleared up in this conversation. Anyone who played before 1933, now has his rookie card in the 33 Goudey set. Or is Ruth the only one ? Nice to know that the rookie cards for hack Wilson and Jimmie Foxx are in the 33 Set. Along with Ruth of course. |
#42
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Jorge
Barry..... I think Sergio has both cards in the auction. If you notice I give different rankings,....."Best Rookie" is that of a card that is a standout, outscores the rest by 6 or more points. Rookie card rankings are given when theres two or more cards that score similarly, within 5 points, and a Notable ranking which is more subjective, is given when a card scores between 6-10 less than a Best Rookie or when the Best Rookie is like a Just So, extremly rare and a next best card is needed. |
#43
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: barrysloate
I may have missed Sergio had both Nichols. |
#44
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Richard
Jorge - |
#45
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Jorge
Barry.....Ive seen the N173 cabinet dated as both 1888 and 1888-89, and the N172 is from 1889...I believe theres a group of these cabinets in the Mastro auction, it may have more info on the date..... |
#46
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What is considered the Billy Martin Rookie?
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Jorge, can you email me with your email address? Thanks. |
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