Stupid Buyers, Stupid Sellers?

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Posted By: Neal 

Here is my question. Everyone on this board is quick to villanize a seller that is trying to rip off poor unsuspecting buyers with misleading descriptions, reprints, etc. etc. However, on the other side of the coin, why aren't people mad when a seller lists something too cheaply, maybe with a BIN price, and obviously doesn't know what he's got. Everyone would be quick to boast about what a great deal they got! Would anyone try to send an email to the seller with a note like "...hey buddy, I noticed your card on Ebay, it's a one of a kind, it's probably worth 20 times your BIN price, just thought I'd let you know so that you can cancel the auction and relist it at a more reasonable price." Why is everyone so quick to warn buyers that are getting ripped off? Why isn't the same standard applied to the stupid seller as it is to the stupid buyer? I'm looking for a deal like the next guy, however, this is something I've always wondered about. Thanks for reading.

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Posted By: Bob

All I know is that when ever I post a nice card with what I think is a reasonable BIN, I can always count on a couple of guys letting me know how the BIN was too low and how I could have sold it for more

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Posted By: David

An eldery woman once offered me an SF Hess baseball player for $20 and I paid her $800--, so put that in your pipe and smoke it.

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Posted By: David

I like good deals, but don't take advantage of ignorant sellers. In most cases, the ignorant are trying to sell their 1961 Fleer Honus Wagner for $10,000 not 25 cents-- so your scenario is rare in my personal experience.

In collecting and authenticity issues, too many people use ignorance as an excuse to find someone else to blame. As Ross Peroit would say, "That dog won't hunt." I do beleive the knowledgeable should act ethically. But if a collector chooses not to do any homework there's nothing I nor anyone else can do. I don't have any legal power to make people learn, they have choose to do it on their own.

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Posted By: David

Simple solution: Don't use a BIN.

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Posted By: David

One thing I apparently never learned is the art of negotiation. Whenever people ask me for my 'lowest price,' I do some calculations and acutally give the lowest price I will sell for. About everying fourth person then tries to negociate the price lower, apparently assuming my answer was merely a ploy. At that point the negociations, as I think to myself, 'Life's too short for this.'

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Posted By: Jeff S

I completely agree, David. But, David, you're on the wrong track. And David, not so sure about that. David?

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Posted By: Jeff Obermeyer

Neal,

Hmmm... well, we criticize buyers who use misleading wording or who sell fake stuff as the real deal because what they are doing is illegal (possibly) and unethical (definately). They are trying to intentionally misrepresent something in an effort to get money - they are actaully trying to rip you off.

Now, regarding sellers who maybe don't know what they have or list something too cheaply... to me, it is the seller's responsibility to know what he or she is selling. If they want to list something that's worth $100 with a $10 BIN, that's not my problem - they set the BIN, which implies that they would be willing to sell the item for that price. I'm just paying them what they wanted for the item.

I don't really see one being related to the other at all... one is an effort to defraud a buyer, and the other is simply paying the price which is being asked by the seller.

Just my take...

Jeff
http://www.seattlehockey.net

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Posted By: chatterbox

Did you ever think that maybe the seller does not know where to find out how much something cost. For instance I have a Houston colt .45s - 1962 baseball card I have had it for well over 6 years I don't know where to find the info about it and that is why i haven't sold it cause someone like you might think oh well that dumb women sold that card to cheap her lost my gain



Just a dumb truckdriving women

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Posted By: Jeff Obermeyer

<<Did you ever think that maybe the seller does not know where to find out how much something cost. For instance I have a Houston colt .45s - 1962 baseball card I have had it for well over 6 years I don't know where to find the info about it and that is why i haven't sold it cause someone like you might think oh well that dumb women sold that card to cheap her lost my gain>>

Gee... if someone is going to sell something, and they think it might be valuable, maybe they should invest some time in trying to find out how much it's worth. There's this great new thing now... it's called the internet. People use it to get information.

As an example, let's examine a hypothetical 1962 baseball card. You could search on various web sites for info, you could post on bulletin boards asking for info, you could go to a local card shop, you could go to a bookstore and look at a price guide, you could see if anyone you know collects, you could search eBay for comparable items either for sale or which have closed... there are lots of different ways to find out the potential value of your item.

My point is that if someone puts this item on eBay for a BIN price then that implies to me that that is how much they want for it.

BTW - no where in my post did I state or imply that the seller who doesn't know the value of their item is "dumb".

Jeff

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Posted By: petecld

I completely agree with Mr. Obermeyer on this issue. It's not the buyer's responsibility to set the price. If you have something to sell, you have the financial gain so it is the seller's job to determine asking price.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...and, even if you follow what he's saying, you can really only make your best guess at what a vintage card is worth.

Look how much some of the book/market values changed, jsut going from last year's to the current Lemke guide. Many big jumps in values/prices in some cards, others stayed the same. My Nadja has gone through the roof, and I think it'd still sell for way more than "book" if I put it up for auction.

From day to day, even the best, most experienced of us don't know what something is going to sell for. Hey...remember when "rockets-lover" showed up? We all though he won a lottery somewhere, and anything he bid on went for at least 50% more than it should have...

Put your item on eBay for a dollar, and if it helps you sleep at night, put a reserve on it. (Though, I almost never bid on reserve auctions myself). The market will determine what it's going to sell for.

The AAA crap is just that: crap. Toilet paper in lucite. It is basically dumb to buy that crap. I was "dumb" when I first came to eBay. One of my first purchases was a 19whatever Spaulding in a NASA holder. I knew nothing about it. But, boy-oh-boy the auction description made it sound like The Grail (deception and lies). I got "such a deal" on it at 6.99, plus shipping. I didn't know about the Board then. How did I find out? After I bought it (it wasn't a private auction) another eBayer sent me a message and told me. Never made that "dumb" mistake again...

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Posted By: runscott

I've warned friends before that their BIN's were too low, but I wouldn't warn a self-proclaimed expert.

I agree with Jeff O that the seller has a responsibility to do just a little research first - if they don't know what they're selling, they can omit the BIN and let the market determine the value.

On the other hand, when you see an obvious case of a novice collector about to be screwed, you need to do something. At this year's National I was walking from the train station to the convention and a slightly mentally challenged man (50ish guy) with a brown paper bag latched onto me. He had loads of mid-60's HOF'er cards just tossed into this bag (no protection at all), and was going to take them to a dealer table and sell them. He was very excited. I had to explain to him that a dealer might (boy am I being nice!) take advantage of him. I then gave him a top-loader for the NM '68 Mantle that was bouncing around in his bag, told him under no circumstances to take less than $100 for it, and directed him to a friend's table. I don't know what happened, but hopefully it was okay. I would have made him an offer (and I'm sure he would have taken anything), but I really didn't trust myself not to take advantage of the situation.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

1. You don't know what motivates a seller. Sometimes a seller who knows better intentionally sets a low price based on time into the item and money into the item; he is trying for a quick flip and doesn't really care what it is "worth". Once, about 15 years ago, I watched a collection pass from Allan Rosen through the hands of several successive dealers at a big show over three days. AR paid $5500 for the collection (I watched him buy it--very entertaining, BTW, good theater) and by the end of the weekend it was broken between four dealers whose combined wholesale purchases amounted to over $7000. Obviously, the retail was considerably higher. I asked Rosen at the end why he had paid $5500 for the collection and not busted it up, since it was obviously worth more (this was the day before everyone auctioned off every damned thing). His response: I sold the lot for $6,000 and made 10% in an hour.

2. Value is relative to time. A guy who paid a dime for a card at a junk sale and sells it for $50 may not care to take the time to research the item, have it graded, etc.

3. There is a huge difference between trying to steal from someone (which is what a deceptive seller is doing) and making a bad deal for yourself. We on this board appropriately become incensed when a dealer tries to rip off the public; there simply is not the same degree of moral outrage over a seller who sets too low a price and hurts only himself.

4. Valuing cards is like valuing stock--the items are worth what the market says they are worth. Every transaction is based on the buyer's determination that the item is worth more than the sales price--how many cards do you purchase at less than your maximum bid? To suggest that a dealer should be told that he needs to up his price is akin to telling a buyer that he needs to pay his max bid.

5. When we were kids and used to trade cards, we all remember trying to get a better card for less. Hell, I once traded a Willie Mays for a Thurman Munson, which is a stupid trade in any era, but I did not blame my friend for ripping me off, I blamed myself for not knowing enough to get more (I knew Yankees and Mets, and did not care about Giants). The same mentality comes into play in the current financially turbocharged atmosphere. We are still a bunch of kids trading cards.

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Posted By: bruce moreland

Does the "moral evaluation" of this situation change if the seller is someone who walks into a card shop with a load of stuff they've had since they were a kid?

If the card shop owner plays it cool until the seller asks too little for his stuff, do you admire the card shop owner for his ability to make a great deal?

bruce

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...everyhone tries to make a buck, that's what they're there to do.

Car dealers buy a used car from someone for $5K, try to sell it for $9K. They get a new car from the factory for $15K, try to sell it for $23K.

Used book dealers buy used books for 25% of the cover price, then resell them for 50% of the cover.

Cards are no different. Churn and burn. And, make a profit on your investment.

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Posted By: David

There are obvious exceptions that I think most (most) of us would follow. If someone came up to me with an original $50,000 Picasso print, kept in the family, and was offering it to me for sale for $5-- I would point out their error in pricing. If someone had a genuine T206 Magie error, that they were offering in person at common price, I would tell him what he had and have him change the price.

Secondly, if contacted, I am willing to give an honest guestimate of price of an item and a cursury judgement of authenticity. I'm sure that most people on this board are the same way. I know for a fact that if a newbie posts a value or identity question to this board, board members will give an idea of value and/or direct to relevent recource (SCD). In other words, a newbie can't complain that she didn't get an answer, if she didn't ask a question.

When I have an item of which I have no idea of value, I put it up on eBay (without BIN) to find out. In some cases, the item sells for three times what I would have thought, sometimes 1/3. Sometimes I think, "That guy got a steal." That's the way it works out and, almost always, the highs and lows even out and I'm happy.

I think many newbies mistake real value with being gyped. Commonly someon thinks that his fancy Rookie Card he's had for the last five is worth $40, and is furious and dissapointed when it only sells for $15. It's not a case that he was gyped, but that that the card was always worth $15. If he had asked anyone knowedgeable in the past five years, she might have said "You can't sell that for $40. It's probably worth $15." In other words, eBay can act as the great 'reality check.'

Last point: If you don't know an items value, don't use BIN. If a collector is going to put a $5 BIN on that $50,000 Picasso, there's really nothing I or anyone else can do for him.

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Posted By: RC_McKenzie

Re: #5.. I recall my parents sitting me down after they had a received a phone call from the parents of a dude from my junior high who I had just traded 8 Eddie Murray rookies in vg to NM for a 1962 Willie Mays in VG/E. This was 1979 and Eddie Murray was relatively famous at that time. The guy had laughed with his parents about how he ripped me off and they called up my parents to ask if they wanted to have him bring them back and undo the deal. My parents said no to them, but they sat me down to explain to me that money does not grow on trees..

BTW I have a 1963 Topps autographed Dave Giusti in g/vg. Is it valuable.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

You look under the name of the brand, then the year. Football guides are separate from baseball guides. Anyone you know who collects cards will probably give you a good estimate--just don't tell him you want to sell it to him.

Ask and look around.

Terry Knouse always tells me why he's charging what he's charging. He just bought a N162 Kelly at Philadelphia, and the seller said it was vg-ex. He can't see anything wrong with it, except tiny flaws , like a touched corner. But he was chargegd less than that, so he selling it for less than that. Someone wants to sell him a Old Judge Rusie for $1200--he hasn't seen it yet. I said i didn't think I'd want to see it, and so on.

Yes, people sell stuff for all sorts of reasons. An acquaintence gave me a big box of '68 and '69 Topps. because his son, the previous owner, had committeed suicide so he wouldn't have to go to Viet Nam (he didn't tell me this; I found out 6 months later about the son). A young man in the berkeley hills sold a big box of his entire baseball card collection for $1 (the Berkeley hills are very expensive), because the baseball strike turned him off so (the one that actually took place last). People sell stuff to other people and lie about the worth of cards they are selling and trading to get the buyer, soon to be seller, in trouble, then lie about what THEY said...trust price guides, transactions, and a little bit your own gut feeling--but don't ever think you're an expert when you know you're not.

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Posted By: David

The autographed Gusti 63 Topps is probably worth a couple of bucks. Card grade and grade/attractiveness of singature is imporant. Most autographed vintage cards are not Near Mint or better, so it does not have to be a high grade card to get best price-- just have a strong overall appearance. Authenticity will naturally be a question in the potential buyer's mind.

Autographed vintage Topps/Bowmans are not widely popular. Most casual collectors would pick an 8x1) or ball. There is, however, a small but avid collecting population who specialize in those. Many of these folks are trying to make sets.

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Posted By: David

In other words, if you got the signature in person, it's likely worth more in sentimental than financial value.

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Posted By: David

Bruce, I understand your point, and beleive that, while not to be confused with a charity (especially if they're payint $1,000 rent for their store front and have full time staff), a dealer should not take undue advantage of the ignorant.

However, before taking their bag of goodies to a local dealer, the collector can at the very least check out eBay and get some idea of value. I simularly check out eBay and I bet everyone else on the board does too. My advice to anyone considering buying at Shop at Home is to, before you call that 1800 #, simply do a search on eBay and see what comparative items are going for. That's all I ask. If you think the prices are comparative, fantastic. But my guess is that anyone who bought for $1,000 Ken Godin's Jerry Rice Rookie (probably a Portaguese stamp issued in 1991), did not follow my advice.

And you don't even have to own a computer. My retired parents took a cross country RV trip to the motherland (UP Michigan). Even though they didn't have a computer with them, my 63 year old mother, and her traveling case of medicines, nasel sprays and 1/2 off Perkins coupons, would stop by the small town libraries and send emails to my family at least twice a week.

In otherwords, if my mom has the ability to double check the prevailing price on a 2001 International Rookie Michael Jordan handkercheif Ken Goldin is offering for $2,000, there's no excuse for anyone else if they didn't do their homework.

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Posted By: David

As there are apprently so many newbies who don't know how to do thier homework or check out the market, I offer the following lessons.

---------
Lesson #1) eBay.com. Ebay is a auction site online where lots of people sell their things. Anyone can buy, sell or do research at the site. eBay has many pretty pictures.

-----------------
Lesson #2) As practice, let's look up the following items on eBay
'1953 Topps Mickey Mantle'
'T207'
'Bobbin' Head'
You can look up other things too!

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Lesson #3) 'Asking for Help' Practice these phrases in front of a mirror or your cat, then use them when you feel neccesary.

"Hi. Can you help me identify this?"
"Hi. Do you know the value of this?"
"Hi. Can you help me find information on this item."
"Hi. Someone offered me $XX for this collection. Does that sound like a reasonsobale price?"

--------
Lesson #4) If you have a million dollar item, don't sell it for $3. I repeat, DO NOT sell it for $3.

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Posted By: runscott

If someone buys an item for $10 that they think is worth $50, then sells it to you for $100, and you know it's worth $1,000, did you do something morally wrong? I don't think so. Should you have told them that their price tag of $100 was too low? Puh-leazzzeee, gimme a break here - maybe you wouldn't have taken their deal, but I would have.

Antique dealers buy piles of photos, cards, etc. all the time for practically nothing, then sell them on ebay not knowing what they had, but still make a tidy profit....that's because they sell JUNK for a living and know nothing about rare photos or cards - is it my job to train them in my field? No, and it isn't their job to train me how to buy and sell junk. They buy in bulk knowing that an occasional gem will slip through, but they still make their profit and don't care to invest the time to to educate themselves so that they can identify every single measly item they buy and sell. Basically, they made a choice, and it involved bulk.

An example is the Mathewson cabinet that you and I were involved in - the owner was happy to sell it for $5 on ebay, having paid far less than that for it as part of a larger lot of photographs. I offered $700, which she accepted, then backed out of the deal after apparently receiving additional information from another source. Of course she did - she never invested the time to educate herself to be an expert at vintage baseball player cabinet photos!

Could she have sold it for what she got on Mastro without my intervention? Of course not - she's not in the business of selling unique Matty cabinet photos - she sells JUNK! If I hadn't offered her $700, she would never have contacted you the expert authenticator, someone would have quietly won the item on ebay for far less, and she would still have made a nice profit, and been perfectly happy. In fact, the extra money she would have made off of that single photo because 2-3 knowledgeable EDUCATED collectors realized it was Matty, probably would have made her pleased as punch.

...oh, and another thought - do you think after Mastro sent her the auction check she went back to the original seller and offered to share the profit?

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Posted By: David

On more than one occasion I have overestimated the value of an item I bought from a non-collector, and ended up selling it at a substantial loss. On none of these occasions did I go back and ask for my money back or to at least split the difference because I was dumb. If I made such a request, it's fair to assume the original seller would laugh it my face and say 'Fat chance.'

So my philosopy is, I will start giving back money to these 'gyped' sellers, when they start giving me my money back when they get bargains. In other words, it's a two way street.

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Posted By: runscott

I bought a card very cheaply, but at a price that the seller was happy with, and that I was happy with. He had just purchased the card in an auction and the price he offered me I can only assume was one that made him a nice profit.

When I got the card and examined it, I discovered that it had a player on the card that made it worth substantially more than I paid for it - how much more, I wasn't sure. I considered telling the original seller that the card had turned out to be rare and then sending him an extra check. But then, would he be obligated to send another check to the person he purchased it from? And would that person then be obligated to send a check? and so on, and so on.

Finally, the descendants of the original photographer who probably died back in the late 1800's, would be entitled to some sort of check. To avoid these complications, I decided to keep the original deal that myself and the previous owner had agreed to.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...or her reasoning...

>>>...For instance I have a Houston colt .45s - 1962 baseball card I have had it for well over 6 years I don't know where to find the info about it and that is why i haven't sold it...<

First...if you never knew its value, how did you ever know what to pay for it...even 6 years ago?

Second...you have honestly been looking for SIX YEARS and you haven't been able to find a single price guide in the library or book store, or a single card dealer that could tell you? Or, nowhere on the internet or at a card show? Are you serious? For SIX YEARS???

I'm sorry...but, there are so many venues out there that have been readily avaialble for you to get card price/value info, I really can't beleive you've put any effort into it.

In 2 minutes time, you could find a card dealer in the yellow pages that could at least point you in the right direction...not even including what's on the Net...

I'm not meaning to be critical, I just don't follow the purpose of your comment...to not be able to find any info for Six Years would tell me that you either haven't tried, or that you lived in Antarctica w/o an ISP conection or telephone.

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Posted By: David

Party's offer, time to pay your bills.

I've done some calculations, and this is what I've come up with:

Runscott: I once bought some photos from you and paid to much. You owe me $200

Elliot: You once sold a card to me for $20. I re-sold it for $50, but I was hoping to sell it for $100. You owe me $50.

Doug Allen: I bought some nice photos from MastroNet and they sold for a profit. But they sold slower than I hoped. You owe my $50.

Dan Mathewson: I once thought I saw you on the other side of the street downtown, and crossed to say Hello. It turned out to be someone else. You owe me $10

Carl: You once asked me what I thought of the T206 Wagner on eBay. I said it looked bad. A real T206 Wagner would cost at least $200,000. That's what you owe me.

Leon: You've never bought anything from me, but if you did it would have cost $50. That's what you owe me.

Check or money orders only please. No PayPal.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...I was undercover. I had to pretend to not be me.

You almost blew my cover.

Value: Priceless.

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Posted By: runscott

Best post I've seen in a long time - but I think I only owe you $189! (I already sent $11 to the descendants of the original photographers)

If things ever get too serious, watch an old movie - I'm watching "From Here to Eternity", and it has to be the whackiest 'meant to be serious' film I've ever watched. When Frank Sinatra asked Montgomery Clift if he had a problem with women, I fell out of my chair.

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Posted By: BROOKS

I HATE TO SAY THIS DAVID BUT IF THAT S.F.HESS CARD STORY IS TRUE I AM AFRAID YOU ARE THE LEADING CANDIDARE FOR THIS YEARS "ATE UP WITH THE DUMB ASS" AWARD