Any player cards you dont collect because of morals

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by BobC

Obviously your insinuation is he was taking PEDs or doing something else along the lines of cheating. If PEDs, I've seriously asked this question before. Knowing how PEDs apparently effect muscles and strength, please explain then how taking them can have such a dramatic effect on someone's batting average, but as is the case with Gwynn, seemingly no such dramatic effect on his hitting home runs,

His two best homer seasons came when he was 37 & 38 years old, the former representing a 467% increase over the season prior and just his 2nd double digit season out of 11. He had 3 consecutive double digit seasons from 37-39 after 2 in his first 15 seasons.

So, yes, there was a dramatic increase.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Tabe

His two best homer seasons came when he was 37 & 38 years old, the former representing a 467% increase over the season prior and just his 2nd double digit season out of 11. He had 3 consecutive double digit seasons from 37-39 after 2 in his first 15 seasons.

So, yes, there was a dramatic increase.

Valid points Chris. I guess it is hard for me to think in terms of someone being so helped by PEDs in hitting home runs when those monumental numbers for them amount to only 16 or 17 home runs for an entire year. LOL

Of course, there is still the argument that Gwynn had such a fantastic eye and ability to hit for a high average that couldn't there also be a possibility that he just decided to try going for more home runs? At that point in time the home run was becoming THE thing in baseball, with the PED era really taking off around that time as well. Rather than comparing Gwynn to the likes of Bonds, McGwire and Sosa, maybe it would be more appropriate to compare him to Cobb, who actually due to average and hitting ability has a much more likely connection and comparability as a hitter? Cobb actually did a somewhat similar thing as Gwynn for a couple years later in his career as well. Most noticeably in 1925 when Cobb hit 12 homers for the year, up from just 4 the prior year (300% increase). That season, when he was 38 I believe, included the two-game stretch where Cobb suddenly put up 5 homers over two back-to-back games. A feat and MLB record he still owns part of, and which even Ruth didn't equal if I remember correctly. And there is also the story/legend of Cobb supposedly telling a reporter to watch him show people how he could hit home runs if he wanted to. Cobb also did a similar jump in 1921 at the age of 34 when he equaled his same single season home run high of 12 as well. That time he improved on a prior year total of only 2 home runs, for a 600% percent increase, blowing even Gwynn's 467% single season jump out of the water.

There are a number of things that have been said about Cobb and that he was accused of during his career, but I don't think taking PEDs was ever one of them. To my knowledge, I don't think Gwynn was ever proven to have taken PEDs, nor failed a drug test. And just look at his batting average over the four prior seasons before his 'power surge" of hitting 17 homers. The man could flat out hit, and like Cobb, led his league and the entire majors in average over multiple seasons. Now if you want to debate about whether Gwynn's high averages were possibly the result of taking PEDs as well, that is possibly a different argument/discussion, maybe.

I honestly don't know. And since his passing, we'll never hear it from him either. At least before his passing, he spoke out and took blame for not doing or saying more against the PED movement, along with laying blame to all of MLB for not doing/saying more against it as well. That never sounded to me like someone who partook in the taking of PEDs themself.

[BobC]

Double post!

[Koufax32fan]

Well, that was a weird few minutes; I learned way too much about some very bad people - I have done a lot of reading about baseball history, and can't believe I didn't ever hear about or remember Marty Bergen. I do have his brother Bill's T206 card.

Ok, what's the deal with Led Zeppelin?

And - disclosure here, I am a Chicagoan of a certain age so MJ was, is and always will be the greatest basketball player in history - I am surprised by LeBron being mentioned and not Kobe.

Back in the early 2000's, I was a lawyer for a company that had a business lawsuit in Denver, Colorado. We had the same lawyer who represented Kobe. I respect my (former) outside counsel for taking his case and she did a great job for us (and for him), but I lost all respect for Kobe after that. I don't collect basketball cards, but I would not spend a shekel (or even a nickel) on a Kobe card.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Koufax32fan

Well, that was a weird few minutes; I learned way too much about some very bad people - I have done a lot of reading about baseball history, and can't believe I didn't ever hear about or remember Marty Bergen. I do have his brother Bill's T206 card.

Ok, what's the deal with Led Zeppelin?

And - disclosure here, I am a Chicagoan of a certain age so MJ was, is and always will be the greatest basketball player in history - I am surprised by LeBron being mentioned and not Kobe.

Back in the early 2000's, I was a lawyer for a company that had a business lawsuit in Denver, Colorado. We had the same lawyer who represented Kobe. I respect my (former) outside counsel for taking his case and she did a great job for us (and for him), but I lost all respect for Kobe after that. I don't collect basketball cards, but I would not spend a shekel (or even a nickel) on a Kobe card.

I had a girlfriend who knew the prosecutor on the other side of the Kobe case and I would agree with you knowing the details of that case. Disgusting.

Amazing how so many people and organizations that purport to support women gave him a pass on that rape. Definitely a case of selective narrative cuz Kobe.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I had a girlfriend who knew the prosecutor on the other side of the Kobe case and I would agree with you knowing the details of that case. Disgusting.

Amazing how so many people and organizations that purport to support women gave him a pass on that rape. Definitely a case of selective narrative cuz Kobe.

Yeah, I don't see how anybody could read the full, complete details of that case and come away thinking Kobe was innocent.

[Prof]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I had a girlfriend who knew the prosecutor on the other side of the Kobe case and I would agree with you knowing the details of that case. Disgusting.

Amazing how so many people and organizations that purport to support women gave him a pass on that rape. Definitely a case of selective narrative cuz Kobe.

I've only read the somewhat detailed descriptions of that case that are available publicly, and it was pretty messed up. He absolutely got a pass, and people have really glossed over it at this point.

I never liked him before that case. That cemented my dislike for him. And I never liked his contrived mamba stuff afterward either.

I wouldn't collect his stuff for myself. But, if I ever found something very cheap that I could flip, I'd buy it and flip it.



I really don't see what anyone would have against LeBron though. I'm not even a fan of his, but he's been squeaky clean his entire life. No scandals at all.

The worst thing he did was The Decision special, and maybe he was a little odd about Hong Kong/China stuff a few years ago.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Prof

I've only read the somewhat detailed descriptions of that case that are available publicly, and it was pretty messed up. He absolutely got a pass, and people have really glossed over it at this point.

I never liked him before that case. That cemented my dislike for him. And I never liked his contrived mamba stuff afterward either.

I wouldn't collect his stuff for myself. But, if I ever found something very cheap that I could flip, I'd buy it and flip it.



I really don't see what anyone would have against LeBron though. I'm not even a fan of his, but he's been squeaky clean his entire life. No scandals at all.

The worst thing he did was The Decision special, and maybe he was a little odd about Hong Kong/China stuff a few years ago.

Kobes wife sort of helped in that..when the wife stays and the person is a huge star....that can help sway public opinion....

as to Leberon, its more political stuff that most under 30 year olds dont care about ..like when he posted that officer that shot a girl who was about to stab another girl and he basically put a target on the officers back for saving another girl from being stabbed if not killed....plus a ton of pro china stuff that seem hypocritical when he talks about problems in the US...question of degree etc

[G1911]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Kobes wife sort of helped in that..when the wife stays and the person is a huge star....that can help sway public opinion....

as to Leberon, its more political stuff that most under 30 year olds dont care about ..like when he posted that officer that shot a girl who was about to stab another girl and he basically put a target on the officers back for saving another girl from being stabbed if not killed....plus a ton of pro china stuff that seem hypocritical when he talks about problems in the US...question of degree etc

I’m pretty sure Kobe was forgiven because the accuser refused to testify in the criminal case and so the case was dropped. As I recall it, much of the actual evidence was not indicative of her accusation. Back then, there was generally still a presumption of innocence or having to prove the charge, unlike today where, for example, Bauer is guilty even though he was found not guilty and all of the evidence indicated the charge was an outright lie.

I’m pretty sure you nailed it for Lebron. Attacking the US government for very questionable things (such as the case where an officer, on video, shot a woman actively trying to murder an innocent block woman and saving her life with only a decor or two to spare and he tried to stir up outrage) while simultaneously appearing to, at best and most charitably, have no problem with the CCP marked him as a left wing wackadoodle to many on the right. Curt Schilling, but in reverse. I will never understand people who insist athletes must agree with their politics, on either side. I can understand, though don’t agree with, barring athletes who did heinous things that are objectively terrible and were in the context in which they lived like rape (with evidence) or murder. Drawing the line at political dissent from their views is just virtue signaling self righteousness. I have left wingers and right wingers in my cards and don’t care.

[sreader3]

For me it comes down to one's sense of what constitutes an endorsement. Is one endorsing or ratifying an athlete’s character by collecting his cards? Or is collecting done for other reasons, such as an historical accounting, a desire to finish a set, or other factors unrelated to a player’s character? I take the latter view. I don’t think that people endorse or ratify a player’s actions just because they collect his cards. So I will continue to acquire Hal Chase, Pete Rose and—if a set collection should ever require—O.J. Simpson and any other psychopath.