The T206 "Elite Eight" have become the "Elite Eleven"

[tedzan]

A recent internet survey that has sampled 100,000+ T206 cards has revealed that the unique group of eight T206's that I have referred to as the "Elite Eight"
has 3 additional "cousins"....therefore, now we have the "Elite Eleven".

For you new guys on Net54 that are interested in such nitty-gritty regarding T206's, I will reprise the history of the "Elite Eleven" here............

Back in 2006, a number of us T206 "Nut-54er's" conducted numerous surveys on this forum. Sparked by Barry Arnold's famous EPDG thread, we had tons of fun.
One of these surveys focused on certain "150/350 series" cards. This particular survey resulted in sorting out 14 subjects from the then known 150/350 series.

1st.......initially we narrowed this group of 14 subjects to 7 of the 8 that are pictured in this 1st group of scans.....Dahlen, Ewing, Ganley, Tom Jones, Karger,
Lindaman, and Mullin (horiz.).....and, we included Lundgren (Cubs). These 8 guys barely qualify as 150/350 subjects, by virtue of the fact that they are very
rarely found with a PIEDMONT 350 back. No SOVEREIGN 350, SWEET CAPORAL 350, etc..

2nd.......in this process, we discovered Red Ames (hands at chest) and Larry Doyle (throwing) are 150-Only subjects. Previously, thought to have been 150/350
subjects.

3rd.......Frank Schulte (front view) was originally considered in the surveys as part of this "Elite" group, not enough info was available then to include this card.
A unique sample of a PIEDMONT 350 Schulte has been confirmed (no EPDG yet); so, it has been included in this group in recently.

4th.......although, Schaefer and Spencer were originally considered in the surveys as belonging to this "Elite" group, these two subjects were uncertain back in
2006. Therefore, they were not included in the original "Elite" group.
My recollection is that Shaw was not considered.

What makes these 11 subjects quite unique is this.....the majority of the population of these 11 are found with 150 series backs (PIEDMONT, SOVEREIGN, and
SWEET CAPORAL). Also, very rarely with Brown HINDU (Karger & Mullin have yet to be confirmed with this back). Furthermore, the Bob Ewing, Tom Jones, and
Tubby Spencer cards are also found with the SWEET CAPORAL 150, Factory 649 (overprint) back.


Original "Elite Eight" subjects





Three additional subjects




Although Lundgren (Cubs) was not printed with HINDU, SOVEREIGN, nor SWEET CAPORAL....this card is very similar to the ELITE 11 with respect to
the initial 350 press runs of PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG.





TED Z

__________________________________________________ _____________________
LOOKING FOR these T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set

AMES....CAMNITZ....CRAWFORD (bat)....DOYLE (port)....JORDAN (bat)....McGRAW (port-cap)
McQUILLAN (bat)....TINKER (bat off)....WILTSE (port-cap)

[Craig M]

I love it Ted!

...so tell me, what recent turn of events led you to include the new three?

Craig

[Abravefan11]

I've been sitting on information about these cards for some time now. Admittedly, I have been selfishly holding back in an effort to try and acquire an example of each of these before exposing all of the cards and their difficulty. Fortunately with today's crazy prices I'm almost complete. Now that the cats almost all the way out of the bag, myself and a couple other collectors have been tracking and collecting these cards for years and believe the list includes at least one more subject.

Here are a couple of mine.

[atx840]

Tim I had those 11, you think there are more?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Craig M

I love it Ted!

...so tell me, what recent turn of events led you to include the new three?

Craig

Hi Craig

The Schaefer & Spencer were suspected back in 2006 when we were doing a survey in Barry Arnold's EPDG thread. Art Mrtineau responded to that
survey indicating that Schaefer very likely belonged to this Elite group.

I was monitoring Spencer in the survey. But, for whatever reasons which I cannot recall, both of these subjects were discontinued from the survey.

Anyhow, to answer your question, it was recently brought to my attention that it is evident that Schaefer, Shaw, and Spencer are only found with
the ususl complement of 150 series backs.....and, the PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs. But, not with SOVEREIGN 350, nor SWEET CAP 350, nor any
other 350-type back.

This fact is based on empirical data gleaned from a huge T206 survey of 100,000+ cards.


TED Z

[Craig M]

Tim...you said "selfishly holding back"...

That could not be further from the truth; it's called being smart.

I would like to thank you, Ted and the countless others that continue to pour your heart and soul into T206 research. It amazes me that it's been over 100 years and secrets about T206 are still being revealed.

To witness this in my lifetime is a very special day for sure and I look forward to more reveals.

"gratias tibi"

Craig

[tedzan]

The following info provides the status of 10 of these ballplayers during the time period of April 1909 >> 1910 season which may well explain why these guys
were "short-circuited" with respect to the usual full complement of 350-type backs (as are typical of most of the other T206's in the 150/350 series group).







Note
The timeline of the transitional status of these 10 player's is approximately concurrent with American Lithographic's start-up of printing their 350 cards.
Of which the PIEDMONT brand was printed first.


Bill Dahlen...............Oct 27, 1909....signed by Brooklyn

Bob Ewing...............Jan 10, 1910....traded tp the Phillies

Bob Ganley..............May 18, 1909....traded to Philadelphia A's

Tom Jones...............Aug 20, 1909....traded to Detroit

Ed Karger................June 9, 1909.....sold to St. Paul Saints (American Association)
.............................July 26, 1909....traded to Boston (AL)

Vive Lindaman..........July 7, 1909....Major League career ends

Carl Lundgren...........Apr 23, 1909....Major League career ends

Germany Schaefer.....Aug 13, 1909....traded to Washington

Al Shaw..................1910....played with Wichita Jobbers (Western League)

Tubby Spencer.........1910....played with St. Paul Saints (American Association)


Needless to say....the PIEDMONT 350 cards and the EPDG cards of these 12 - T206's are very rare and will usually sell for a premium.

Unless, of course, you are lucky to find any of them selling for a common price. I don't think that will occur with the Lundgren card

Questions are welcomed, and appreciated.


TED Z

[g_vezina_c55]

Interresting thread Ted

THX

[wonkaticket]

Good stuff Ted.

[atx840]

Ted, I believe these 9 are also no prints with Sov350, t206resource has them as possible-not confirmed.

19 Barger, Cy Rochester
101 Collins, Jimmy Minneapolis
164 Evans, Steve St. Louis Nat'l
192 Gray, Dolly Washington
197 Groom, Bob Washington
309 Mattern, Al Boston Nat'l
326 McLean, Larry Cincinnati
399 Puttman, Ambrose Louisville
436 Shannon, Spike Kansas City

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by atx840

Ted, I believe these 9 are also no prints with Sov350, t206resource has them as possible-not confirmed.

19 Barger, Cy Rochester
101 Collins, Jimmy Minneapolis
164 Evans, Steve St. Louis Nat'l
192 Gray, Dolly Washington
197 Groom, Bob Washington
309 Mattern, Al Boston Nat'l
326 McLean, Larry Cincinnati
399 Puttman, Ambrose Louisville
436 Shannon, Spike Kansas City

Hey Chris

There are many more than those you have listed.

From my SOVEREIGN 350-only NO-PRINT list that I posted 6 years ago on this forum when I completed my All-SOVEREIGN set...........

350 SERIES......consists of 204 cards......the NO-PRINTS are:

Abstein
Adkins
Arrellanes
Barbeau
Barger
Becker
Bliss
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Charles
Clark
Clymer
Collins (Minn.)
Cross
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Demmitt (New York American)
Dessau
Dorner

Downey (fielding)
Elberfed (portrait-Washington)
Engle
Evans
Fletcher
Freeman
Ganzel
Graham (St Louis AL)
Gray
Groom
Hayden
Hoffman (St Louis AL)
Hunter
Jones (portrait Detroit)
La Porte
Lattimore
Lord
Lundgren (Kansas City)
Maddox
Maloney

Marshall
Mattern
McAleese
McBride
McElveen
McLean
Milan
Miller (Pittsburg)
Mullen (portrait)
Murray (bat)
Myers (bat)
Nattress
Phillippe
Puttman
Rhodes
Ritter
Rudolph
Schirm
Schlafly
Schreck

Shannon
Sharpe
Snodgrass (bat)
Starr
Willett



TED Z
__________________________________________________ ______________________
LOOKING FOR these T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set

AMES....CAMNITZ....CRAWFORD (bat)....DOYLE (port)....JORDAN (bat)....McGRAW (port-cap)
McQUILLAN (bat)....TINKER (bat off)....WILTSE (port-cap)

[atx840]

Thanks Ted, I know there are many more but those 9 are in an exclusive group that are not printed with several backs yet are still listed as possible for Sov350.

[tedzan]

Trust me....those 9 subjects you listed are SOVEREIGN 350 NO PRINTS....period.

Anyhow, I'm trying to understand what do these 9 cards have to do with the subject matter in this thread....regarding the "Elite Eleven".

If they are meant to be an O/T that's fine.....I dig that. I just don't get how these 9 unrelated T206's fit in this discussion.

Please explain ?


TED Z

[Jantz]

Good information Ted!

Interesting that Ewing is the only player with a 1910 date in your noted timeline. He seems to be, at least for me, the easiest player to find with a Piedmont 350 back.

Do you think its possible that more of his cards were printed with a 350 back since his trade came much later than the other players you have listed?


Jantz

[deadballfreaK]

[Phillies*phan]

Good stuff Ted. When you say "very rare" can you be more specific as to a possible ratio. Maybe like 150 to 350 is 10-1. I do have Dahlen and Karger in Piedmont 350.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Jantz

Good information Ted!

Interesting that Ewing is the only player with a 1910 date in your noted timeline. He seems to be, at least for me, the easiest player to find with a Piedmont 350 back.

Do you think its possible that more of his cards were printed with a 350 back since his trade came much later than the other players you have listed?


Jantz

Great to hear from you Jantz

You make an interesting point regarding the Ewing card. In my hunt for these T206's with PIEDMONT 350 backs or EPDG backs, I have had (or seen) more Ewing's
with these two rare backs than any of the other subjects in this "Elite" group.

To give you a more certain answer, I'll have to check-out my records.


TED Z

[atx840]

OT for sure Ted...I've emailed my data and reached out to you and never hear back so this is the only way I can engage you to discuss some other interesting oddities.

Breaking the 350 series backs into groups (sheet mates) based on cards that are only found with the same backs with no exceptions....you start to see patterns.

Like your Elite 11 pop right out - Groups 8 (3), 18 (3), 24 (5) = 11 + Group 19 (Lundren)



Those in Group 4 (9) I mentioned are in their own group and are all still unconfirmed for Sov350s....leading me to believe they do not exist. There are several more subgroups if you start to group the unconfirmed groups.

I think we can knock off most of the unconfirmed cards through this method.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by atx840

OT for sure Ted...I've emailed my data and reached out to you and never hear back so this is the only way I can engage you to discuss some other interesting oddities.

Breaking the 350 series backs into groups (sheet mates) based on cards that are only found with the same backs with no exceptions....you start to see patterns.

Like your Elite 11 pop right out - Groups 8 (3), 18 (3), 24 (5) = 11 + Group 19 (Lundren)



Those in Group 4 (9) I mentioned are in their own group and are all still unconfirmed for Sov350s....leading me to believe they do not exist. There are several more subgroups if you start to group the unconfirmed groups.

I think we can knock off most of the unconfirmed cards through this method.

I haven't seen the data Chris has on the 350s, but I've had a nice long look at his work on the 460's and other than a very few minor adjustments that might be needed it looks to be both correct and very interesting.

Steve B

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

I really wish I had kept back and front scans of all the T206s I once owned. All most all the cards I accumulated and sold from the mid 80s to the mid 2000's I either did not keep any scan or never scanned the front with back.

Of the 80 cards I had from the mid 80s there was a Ewing and Spenser EPDG and I was almost positive I once owned a Mullin Pied 350, I use to buy horizontals all the time. Decided I did not want to go for a back run of them because I had a Piedmont 150 and 350, sold off the others and kept the highest grade one. But that being said I have no scan of the 350, so who knows if I actually owned one.

I added cards are interesting because I thought the Shaw and Schaefer were a little tougher but not well known but the Spencer never seemed to fall into that category.

I still think there are some tougher commons out the that will get there day in the sun. Kleinow, NY & Smith, Chicago come to mind.

Lee

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Phillies*phan

Good stuff Ted. When you say "very rare" can you be more specific as to a possible ratio. Maybe like 150 to 350 is 10-1. I do have Dahlen and Karger in Piedmont 350.

Hi Doug

The relative scarcity of the PIEDMONT 350 and the EPDG versions of the Elite Eleven with respect to their PIEDMONT 150 cards varies from subject to subject.

Tracking these T206's over the years tells me that the ratio of P150 to P350 ranges from a factor of 20:1 to 50:1

The ratio of P150 to EPDG ranges from 40:1 to 60:1

I'll try to get some actual numbers on these cards.


TED Z

[Gradedcardman]

Ted that answered my question as well. Thanks for the insight.