Trying to identify new T206 underprints...or stamp.

[atx840]

Myself and Johnny have been working on this for over two years and we would REALLY appreciate any insight or input from the many knowledgeable collectors on here, both with the set and the printing process.

Many T206 collectors are aware of several interesting scrap cards out there with very neat back under prints, some related to the set and others from different ALC projects.



Recently a find of several handcut, missing ink cards, have slowly popped up in REA auctions…what's interesting is a few have unique back markings....which possible could be a new type of underprint....or maybe just a stamp.

The first example (Manning) to show up was included with the newly found handcut Piedmont 150 Plank in REAs 2011 auction, next was the Lake in a large lot in 2012 and most recently two cards (Griffith & O'Leary) in another larger lot in 2013. REA has confirmed these have all originated from the same find.



2011, 2012, 2013

A 5th hancut example (G Davis) was found by Craig M on the board, and so far is the sole SC example.

From studying high resolution scans of four examples, FOUND HERE, our theory is there were previously tested sheets with markings from another ALC project used when the printers were testing the initial P150 run. To note, all 5 known examples are found in the same 34 player 150 series grouping. The detail on these is much higher then any stamps I have seen.

The markings are not within the confines of one back as we see with typical stamps, similar to the Lash's Bitters the under print spans multiple cards. The detail is up there with the ghost backs, all are handcut cards and have other print issues which leads me to believe these markings were likely added to the backs during initial printing and before the sheet was cut.



Any ideas what this might be from? There is a hand in a cuffed sleeve, a square logo and what looks like berries on trees. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[z28jd]

I have a card with a weird marking I wondered about too. Didn't look like a stamp added on later to me. I'm guessing those cards you posted could have been on sheets that may have been test runs and were blank before the Piedmont back was added. Basically, scrap

[thehoodedcoder]

looks like the cards were in a pile...they got damp/moist, perhaps in someones basement and something else transferred the ink to them...perhaps a newspaper.

thats the most plausible explanation imo.

kevin

[atx840]

Kevin. Thanks for the post.

I doubt the detail would be that clear for a wet transfer. I think it was a sheet at the factory used for testing another project and then ended up used for T206 testing. They are missing ink, handcut and from the same grouping.

[steve B]

It's probably going to be a long search to find what the other item was. It really does seem printed, rather than stamped.

I can't really tell if it's over the t206 backs or under. Either way you're probably right about it being some other thing being setup. There are almost always what's called "make-ready" sheets, used for press adjustment. There's a bit of setup, getting the registration right, and sometimes making sure the inking is right before printing the actual production run. Usually only a few sheets, 5 to 10, maybe more if the pressman isn't all that good. The guy I worked with could get things near perfect in less than 5 sheets, it took me 10, but that was the first time doing it. The last thing I setup I got it in 6 which he thought was really good. The sheets used were always either leftovers from something else, or damaged paper. No point in wasting a good sheet.

That batch is interesting. There's at least 3 different sheets. The SC, of course is different, and the piedmonts are two or three different ones. One has two impressions with a good deal of distance between them. Either run through twice or they left the inking on while moving one of the rollers over. The logo is obviously doubled. There's another with no second impression, and maybe one with a slight distance between two impressions.


Another thing I noticed is that -I think- the hand is actually holding the logo. If you turn the logo upside down it matches up with the hand fairly well. So I'm thinking the image is a hand holding a playing card or maybe a package of something, with either berries or flowers on either side.
Probably a trade card. But very hard to figure out with just the one color. If it's a package, maybe cigarettes?


Steve B

[mrvster]

to own the Griffith thanks to a fellow board member....I have been trying to pick up a "berry" since the 2012 REA Lake.....but this week, my friend got me one, thanks....1000% scrap....just need to correlate the logos to some type of era trade card( like Steve said, or a tonic, laxative ect)...

seems 100 % plausible these were set up, test sheets.....

two years now these berries are "haunting" me.....i'm so happy to add another scrap....one more closer to wagner.....

Anyway, WE NEED HELP!!

Find the BERRIES

Steve, great input as always from our resident printer to give us insight from the inside, THANKS

And Chris, THANKS for putting this thread together....almost sick how we think alike on these


peace

johnny

[Gradedcardman]

Johnny,

I stick with my statement from last week...you and Chris are really the same person...admit it !!

[mrvster]

Your the man!

Addicted to scrap

[atx840]

Thanks Steve...I think its plausible they are printed on some other test sheet....would be nice to find out what exactly.

Also want to thank Johnny's friend for the trade and to Craig M for adding two more to the collection.

[thehoodedcoder]

For the low low price of 50 thousand dollars you can own one of these cards. LOL

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...#ht_309wt_1400

They should have marked it up to the 99,999. that is what darby-s thinks he will get for his yellow brown collection. LOL.

kevin

[Gradedcardman]

The price may be crazy but Darby-S is one of the best and most knowledgeable on this board. As he and many others say, if you don't like the price then move on but don't insult the seller with a lowball offer to just prove a point.

[npa589]

Originally Posted by Gradedcardman

The price may be crazy but Darby-S is one of the best and most knowledgeable on this board. As he and many others say, if you don't like the price then move on but don't insult the seller with a lowball offer to just prove a point.

+1

What some people need to do, before they comment on prices, is put their thoughts through the prism of "Do I know the reason for why they have the price so high?" I'll help you out and tell you that you don't know the exact answer. So, either move on or politely ask the seller why. There are a myriad of reasons why a seller may have a card for sale at what you perceive to be an insane price. What if they have no need for the money, and enjoy having it in their collection, but are listing it for 15 cents a month with a conditional approach of "If someone is willing to pay this price, then I would then be willing to give it up."?

Also, there is something with regard to reselling an item that is important with regard to taxation..., but that's a whole 'nother issue.

[mrvster]

In all due respect, I know the seller of that lot(Weimer,Joss, epdg m/c)...and believe it or not, his buy it now is not that far off....

Weimer is sister to mine....There are approx. 12 or less accounted for(ghost underprints).....There are the same amount of Brown Old Mills and Cobb Backs....These under print back ghosts are extremely, extremely rare and cool.....they are on a different level and would expect brown old mill or better pricing on them....

meaning, a 15 k price tag on that card alone presently would not be unheard of(especially relative to rare backs)......

Joss yellow brown is one of the nicest examples of yellow brown scrap....

Collectors may "think" there are a lot of yellow browns out here.....I estimate 80 or so.....that is rarer than drum my friend.......perceptually "common" to scrap, they are very rare......joss could bring 8 k plus at the right setting(rea) presently.....and future is the limit....


That 50/50 split back epdg is next to impossible....REA setting 6-8k EASY....maybe , SHOULD I DARE SAY, 10k??? why not....

15+10+8.....pure speculation.......not way off buy it now....I bet he'd get close to those in REA.....


THEY ARE JUSt that rare....

Dan's collection is sick.......60-80 on that lot would not be unheard of....and mark my words, future that will be a bargain.....no one realizes yet the uniqueness and rarity of these scraps....


the future looks bright as collectors become more educated....

[thehoodedcoder]

the way you have them all lined up yet the cards are skewed to me says all of these cards got something transfered onto them after they were cut right?

what makes you think they were printed first?

[atx840]

I overlaid them to try and rebuild the pattern (which isn't limited to one card) to help identify it. The detail is really high on these, similar to ghosts and could have been printed before or after the Piedmont ad...but I believe the sheet was still intact at the time. It is not uncommon for printers to reuse sheets for testing purposes.

Either the printer grabbed a sheet and tested for another project (this new pattern) and set it aside and later on was used to test T206s (saving paper). Then the sheet was handcut and we get unfinished T206 fronts with pattern on the back.

Or a printer grabbed an old test T206 sheet to test this pattern and later on it was cut up and we get unfinished T206 fronts with pattern on the back.

Similar to the Lash's Bitters sheet.

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by mrvster

In all due respect, I know the seller of that lot(Weimer,Joss, epdg m/c)...and believe it or not, his buy it now is not that far off....

Weimer is sister to mine....There are approx. 12 or less accounted for(ghost underprints).....There are the same amount of Brown Old Mills and Cobb Backs....These under print back ghosts are extremely, extremely rare and cool.....they are on a different level and would expect brown old mill or better pricing on them....

meaning, a 15 k price tag on that card alone presently would not be unheard of(especially relative to rare backs)......

Joss yellow brown is one of the nicest examples of yellow brown scrap....

Collectors may "think" there are a lot of yellow browns out here.....I estimate 80 or so.....that is rarer than drum my friend.......perceptually "common" to scrap, they are very rare......joss could bring 8 k plus at the right setting(rea) presently.....and future is the limit....


That 50/50 split back epdg is next to impossible....REA setting 6-8k EASY....maybe , SHOULD I DARE SAY, 10k??? why not....

15+10+8.....pure speculation.......not way off buy it now....I bet he'd get close to those in REA.....


THEY ARE JUSt that rare....

Dan's collection is sick.......60-80 on that lot would not be unheard of....and mark my words, future that will be a bargain.....no one realizes yet the uniqueness and rarity of these scraps....


the future looks bright as collectors become more educated....

my dopner card is 1 of 4 or 5. that makes it rarer than all of the insanity you speak of here. i should list it for 150k since there is even less of them.

even if i listed it...it wouldn't sell at that price. its insulting in the reverse to see someone asking an absurd price on a card as it is to get 'lowballed' on an offer.

kevin

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by atx840

I overlaid them to try and rebuild the pattern (which isn't limited to one card) to help identify it. The detail is really high on these, similar to ghosts and could have been printed before or after the Piedmont ad...but I believe the sheet was still intact at the time. It is not uncommon for printers to reuse sheets for testing purposes.

Either the printer grabbed a sheet and tested for another project (this new pattern) and set it aside and later on was used to test T206s (saving paper). Then the sheet was handcut and we get unfinished T206 fronts with pattern on the back.

Or a printer grabbed an old test T206 sheet to test this pattern and later on it was cut up and we get unfinished T206 fronts with pattern on the back.

Similar to the Lash's Bitters sheet.

they are cockeyed. sheets of paper are square or rectangular. how do you run a diamond shaped piece of paper through a press? you don't. your pattern is not at right angles to the sheet the way it would have been cut for the card.

as a side note it doesn't look like they are berries. they look like cuff links and a hand.

kevin

[steve B]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

they are cockeyed. sheets of paper are square or rectangular. how do you run a diamond shaped piece of paper through a press? you don't. your pattern is not at right angles to the sheet the way it would have been cut for the card.

as a side note it doesn't look like they are berries. they look like cuff links and a hand.

kevin

It's also only one color out of several. Without context there's no way to tell if the print is angled, or if the hand and whatever the other items are were supposed to be angled on the item being printed.

That one has a normal impression and another an impression that's doubled means they weren't created on the same sheet.

Paper can also get caught in the press and get ruined in many ways, among them getting rotated, when that happens two corners get messed up very badly, the part of the sheet in the center is usually ok. But it gets partly printed "diamond shaped"

You'd think the result would be tossed in the trash, but not always. Stuff happens even with modern equipment and better QC. I've pulled a card from a modern pack that was entirely torn in half.

I won't get into the price argument, each misprint of this sort or the cylinder impressions "ghosts" on the back are unique or nearly so. Caption problems like Dopner are also very uncommon. 1-2 existing compared to 4-5 existing isn't much difference. (Although I think that number will increase for the caption mistakes) I don't have a problem with someone asking a lot for an item in that category. I have a few cards I paid silly prices for decades ago. for some it's worked out well, others not so well. The ones I passed up......
(Orr rookie from the test set, $100 which at the time was insane since I could get nearly all the other topps sets from 66-late 70's for that much. )

Steve B

[David R]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

my dopner card is 1 of 4 or 5. that makes it rarer than all of the insanity you speak of here. i should list it for 150k since there is even less of them.

even if i listed it...it wouldn't sell at that price. its insulting in the reverse to see someone asking an absurd price on a card as it is to get 'lowballed' on an offer.

kevin

+1 I totally agree Kevin.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by mrvster

In all due respect, I know the seller of that lot(Weimer,Joss, epdg m/c)...and believe it or not, his buy it now is not that far off....

Weimer is sister to mine....There are approx. 12 or less accounted for(ghost underprints).....There are the same amount of Brown Old Mills and Cobb Backs....These under print back ghosts are extremely, extremely rare and cool.....they are on a different level and would expect brown old mill or better pricing on them....

meaning, a 15 k price tag on that card alone presently would not be unheard of(especially relative to rare backs)......

Joss yellow brown is one of the nicest examples of yellow brown scrap....

Collectors may "think" there are a lot of yellow browns out here.....I estimate 80 or so.....that is rarer than drum my friend.......perceptually "common" to scrap, they are very rare......joss could bring 8 k plus at the right setting(rea) presently.....and future is the limit....


That 50/50 split back epdg is next to impossible....REA setting 6-8k EASY....maybe , SHOULD I DARE SAY, 10k??? why not....

15+10+8.....pure speculation.......not way off buy it now....I bet he'd get close to those in REA.....


THEY ARE JUSt that rare....

Dan's collection is sick.......60-80 on that lot would not be unheard of....and mark my words, future that will be a bargain.....no one realizes yet the uniqueness and rarity of these scraps....


the future looks bright as collectors become more educated....

Said many times before only worth what somebody is willing to pay you for them.

I will agree the days of these major oddballs being sub one thousand dollar cards is long gone, however in terms of value for the BIN price if there was really a value or deal to be had they still wouldn’t be listed and would have sold already.

Cheers,

John

[Sean]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Said many times before only worth what somebody is willing to pay you for them.

I agree. They're Dan's cards. He can ask whatever price he wants for them. And we are free to not buy them if we so choose. There is no need to feel insulted, this is simply business.

Now if you want insults, make Dan a lowball offer.

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by Sean

I agree. They're Dan's cards. He can ask whatever price he wants for them. And we are free to not buy them if we so choose. There is no need to feel insulted, this is simply business.

Now if you want insults, make Dan a lowball offer.

exactly...and they just sit there. its not a business if you don't sell anything.

its amusing. some cards have been there for 3 years. maybe not his but definitely some of his have been there for at least 2.

its annoying to have to continue to scroll past them day after day. its a waste of everyones time. cut everyone a break already. list the thing for real or delist it.


kevin

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's also only one color out of several. Without context there's no way to tell if the print is angled, or if the hand and whatever the other items are were supposed to be angled on the item being printed.

That one has a normal impression and another an impression that's doubled means they weren't created on the same sheet.

Paper can also get caught in the press and get ruined in many ways, among them getting rotated, when that happens two corners get messed up very badly, the part of the sheet in the center is usually ok. But it gets partly printed "diamond shaped"

You'd think the result would be tossed in the trash, but not always. Stuff happens even with modern equipment and better QC. I've pulled a card from a modern pack that was entirely torn in half.

I won't get into the price argument, each misprint of this sort or the cylinder impressions "ghosts" on the back are unique or nearly so. Caption problems like Dopner are also very uncommon. 1-2 existing compared to 4-5 existing isn't much difference. (Although I think that number will increase for the caption mistakes) I don't have a problem with someone asking a lot for an item in that category. I have a few cards I paid silly prices for decades ago. for some it's worked out well, others not so well. The ones I passed up......
(Orr rookie from the test set, $100 which at the time was insane since I could get nearly all the other topps sets from 66-late 70's for that much. )

Steve B

as being someone that worked in a print shop for 4 years, its not worth the time to try and realign crumpled paper onto your neatly stacked pile of output. to try to cram it through a cutter. you simply have problems "jogging" the paper or aligning it properly in the cutter. you toss them in the garbage almost 100 percent of the time, unless they are numbered and or you need an exact count of them.

your suggesting that your back has a diamond print and it might be normal. i submit the question "how many fronts have a diamond print". i have yet to see one single example. show me a front and i will consider it plausible.

kevin

[mrvster]

I am a T206 error collector and the Dopner is a silly error...(BTW, there are more than 5 examples or so on them, I have seen them myself).....a extremely miniscule amount of the "R" blocked out, that card is not over $300.00 card imho.....My Hemphills missing part H and E are much cooler....

Scraps and caption errors are ON ANOTHER DIMENSION.....apples and oranges....

These scraps are altenative T206....Dopner is a crap card, not a scrap

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by mrvster

I am a T206 error collector and the Dopner is a silly error...(BTW, there are more than 5 examples or so on them, I have seen them myself).....a extremely miniscule amount of the "R" blocked out, that card is not over $300.00 card imho.....My Hemphills missing part H and E are much cooler....

Scraps and caption errors are ON ANOTHER DIMENSION.....apples and oranges....

These scraps are altenative T206....Dopner is a crap card, not a scrap

Easy now Johnny my boy getting all fired up!

The same can be said for any of the stuff we collect. In terms of silliness folks could argue that tiny color shifts on cards or missing a touch of red are just as weak, in terms of uniqueness as a “nodgrass” etc. To each his own when it comes to this stuff. They are worth what someone is willing to pay there is no real set price. Case in point you think the “dopner” is a $300 card tops and some would argue the same for your Griffith oddball job above….it’s not just beauty that’s in the eye of the beholder. Sometimes when it comes to collectibles its price too.

On the BIN on the Weimer I will go on the record and say even I think that’s high and I would be a person in the market for those. If I had to say where I would be…I’d say 10k perhaps a bit more on the Weimer, 5k on the EPDG and 2k tops on the Joss. So even for me that’s a lot of ground to cover to get to 50k just too much amazing stuff for 50k to be had.

But hey they’re his cards, eBay is a market place and he can list them every day of the week for all I care not my place to dictate to anybody what should and shouldn’t be listed let alone at what prices they should be listed for…that’s where Kevin and I disagree.

Cheers,

John

[atx840]

Stay on target...stay on target.

[Gradedcardman]

+1

[teetwoohsix]

This is very interesting!!

To me it looks like these odd markings are under the the Piedmont back. I may be wrong, but I think these markings may have been on the sheet first?

I guess this can be a fun project to focus on, to see if we can find out what else the ALC was printing during this time frame, and try to match them up!!

Cool thread Chris. Congrats on the Griffith Johnny!! Nice

Sincerely, Clayton

[Jantz]

Chris

I like the McGraw card with the Piedmont 150 & Piedmont 350-460 backs on it. I see the Tolstoi back also, but the Piedmonts intrigue me.

Can't help you much with the other back stamps, but if I notice anything, I'll let you know.


Jantz

[Tao_Moko]

I think the "berries" look more like an olive branch w/ olives. Maybe that will help expand the search of printing possibilities at that time(if it is printed). The hand seems too large to be from a similar sized tobacco card so I'm guessing that it will be from an advertising piece. Bear with me on this - I see a hand with a dressy sleeve, something that may be a glass bottle and olive branches. Is it an Olive Oil advertisement? I agree that it doesn't look like a wet sheet transfer or a stamp.

[Jantz]

Chris

This might not help much, but I found a spot on match for the Lash's advertisement.

It was on the back of a trade card.


Jantz

[atx840]

Thanks guys. Much appreciated.

Jantz, I believe David R, who originally showed us these lovely Lax overprints actually acquired a Lash Bitters postcard/ad with the front and back matching (men at a bar on front). I've seen several Lash advertisements in my search for the berries....nothing with what I'm looking for unfortunately.

It was requested for the SC example, you can see the detail of the berries vs stamps. The Olives might be a great lead, is the square a cup with olives in it? I also believe the pattern is repeating, in a square, a hand and logo on each corner of each branch....possibly multiple printings of it.

Great input!

[mrvster]

for the input guys.....looks almost like an alien in the logo

I like the "olive" theory

[steve B]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

as being someone that worked in a print shop for 4 years, its not worth the time to try and realign crumpled paper onto your neatly stacked pile of output. to try to cram it through a cutter. you simply have problems "jogging" the paper or aligning it properly in the cutter. you toss them in the garbage almost 100 percent of the time, unless they are numbered and or you need an exact count of them.

your suggesting that your back has a diamond print and it might be normal. i submit the question "how many fronts have a diamond print". i have yet to see one single example. show me a front and i will consider it plausible.

kevin

I'm not suggesting they realigned it, or cut it down to reuse.

I'm saying that the possibilities I see are-
The sheet was being used in setup, and got wrecked when it jammed. Then was tossed, and "rescued" maybe to bring someones kid a few cards to play with. Similar to the way any other printers scrap got saved. (Some of the other errors are normal production, some aren't)

OR
The hands and berries/olives/whatever were intended to be printed on an angle, and were. The makeready sheets from whatever that was were done on T206 makeready sheets since there was enough blank space available.

Some items are more efficiently printed skewed on the sheet. Like diamond shaped labels, or envelopes. Irregular shapes can also work better skewed a bit.

I think at some point there will be a trade card found that's not square or rectangular, and includes the hand holding a packet of something. A label is a possibility, but using cardstock to setup for thinner stock doesn't make sense.

Steve B

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I have a card with a weird marking I wondered about too. Didn't look like a stamp added on later to me. I'm guessing those cards you posted could have been on sheets that may have been test runs and were blank before the Piedmont back was added. Basically, scrap

Hey, I got a t206 (Merkle portrait) with the same weird print on back as yours! I don't have a scan of the back right now but here's the front. I'll find that card and get you a scan of the back, (BTW "The Great T-206 backstamp project" site has a lot of cool stuff (but not ours). Also mine doesn"t have initials stamped on it like yours. Who is your card of? Dave.

[mrvster]

is that a belt loop??? w a comb in back pocket?? with a dog in the pants??....on the sweet cap??

man, i'm getting delirious

[mrvster]

is in and 1000% scrap!!

extremely happy....thanks a.b.

[Exhibitman]

Interesting thread. Ever since I got it I've been trying to figure out what this one is:

[MVSNYC]

Adam, looks like a wet sheet of loose-leaf paper was once laid over it.

[mrvster]

Charlie said the "hand" on the Griffith looks like it's holding a cigar.....and the "berries" look like a vine....

[Sean]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Adam, looks like a wet sheet of loose-leaf paper was once laid over it.

It looks like a Wet Sheet Transfer to me as well, though I can't tell what that sheet was.

[MuddyMules]

I found a this and it matches pretty close to the hand on the card. All I have to work with is microsoft excel on this laptop and had to take a picture of the screen with my phone to upload the file. Chris- see what you think.

[mrvster]

you found it!!! chris post my Griffith!

[wolf441]

Okay, so I couldn't find an image, but Lash Bitter's did make a wild cherry version. We need to search for any Lash's advertising from the 1910 period and I think you may be able to nail down the berries as well.

[atx840]

That's not quite it but a good start..appreciate it Ted.

A new example was found, Powers....so far all cards (6) found with these markings are also part of the SC 649 OP subset....possibly a printed 34 card sheet of these was used for the berries ad. 34 card sheet



A pattern of hands, cup and berries keeps repeating.

[Gradedcardman]

I want it back !!! LOL !!

[MuddyMules]

But it was so close........thanks for sharing the other pictures Chris.

It appears to me that the "thing" the hand is holding is some sort of leather container, especially with the top cut like it is and the pattern on the black areas of the body. It looks like it has a snap type buckle (the black square), that would latch into the area that looks like an alien eye. Below that would be some sort of nameplate possibly for engraving your name on it or a name plate of the manufacturer with the rectangle piece below it being an engraving plate.

(edit) just another thought........it looks like a holder or holster for a tobacco tin. It looks to be the right size for one.

[mrvster]

please help us solve this one

[npa589]

Lol...hahaha, I sold one like this before too. Had no clue!

Originally Posted by Gradedcardman

I want it back !!! LOL !!

[MuddyMules]

I have found the mystery item shown in the hand. It is a Twin Oaks Tobacco Tin and the olives are actually Acorns. Here is a link to the tin: http://www.etsy.com/listing/52192582...condition-twin

There are several of these for sale on ebay. Now everyone......go find the advertising piece that fits the card!!!!