Pete Rose deserves to be in the Hall of Fame

Rose might be an arrogant fool, but he gambled on baseball AFTER his playing career ended.
http://bit.ly/2lo16k

[GrayGhost]

I agree, but I think he should remain banned from working in baseball and a notation made.

Shoeless Joe, also, yes, He DID take the money, but to my knowledge did NOT play poorly or throw any games with his play. Of course, he did know about the fix too, so its a tough choice.

Im curious as to other people's opinions on Joe and Pete and the HOF.

[perezfan]

Absolutely, Rose should be in.

But I agree that he should not be allowed to ever coach or manage (which he very much wants to do). This way, his incredible accomplishments are properly realized, but his lifetime punishment is still severe and meaningful.

The debate will go on forever, but I feel that PEDs which enhance performance on the field are quite different (and more damning) than the post-career gambling issue. Just my opinion...

[Frank A]

Rose is a bum and should never get in. Even worse for a manager to be betting on his team or the other.

[Chris Counts]

Add my name to the list of Rose supporters. The Hall of Fame should get out of the business of judging players based on their moral shortcomings. The hall is filled with players, managers and executives who exhibited questionable moral behavior that matched or exceeded Rose's. I find the notion Bud Selig is the guy who's judging Rose particularly disturbing. This is the same guy who tried to contract the Twins because his pal Carl Pohlad wanted to make a bundle off the deal. His scheme died when it was discovered that Carl loaned Bud $3 million. Mark my words, one day Bud's cronies will be trying to put him in the Hall of Fame ...

[J.McMurry]

It was a lifetime ban. Put Jackson on the ballot for the vet committee now, and once Rose passes, put him on their ballot. If either is elected there should be a notation on their plaque that they were banned from baseball. No way Rose should be allowed to personally profit from being a HOFer or ever hold an official job in MLB.

and I agree, Air Bud's boys will make a push to get him in the hall in the future, and that would be the worst travesty of all.

[nolemmings]

never!

[chaddurbin]

pete rose AGREED to the lifetime ban that includes any chance of HOF membership...with the late commish. now he wants to weasel his way back in? i'd let bonds mcgwire et al in before rose.

[docpatlv]

My take on the whole HOF issue is this....there is a contingent that sits on their high horses believing that what Pete Rose did is the ultimate sin. I don't condone what Rose did in his post-playing days, but having said that, is it not possible that there are already-enshrined HOF members who have done what most people would consider "worse acts". Are there not HOF'ers who were blatant racists, abusive husbands, alcoholics, drug-abusers, adulterers, etc?

I guess my moral compass is set to different standards, but I would much rather be in the presence of someone with a gambling addiction than someone who hits their wife or embraces the hatred of others based solely on the color of their skin. We are not all angels, surely we have done things in our personal lives or workplace that may not constitute "model" behavior.

America's beloved Michael Jordan has had serious gambling problems, as well as other notable athletes. Oh, I know, Pete bet on baseball...is there such a thing as forgiveness? I can't pretend to know what Rose's thoughts were when his mistakes were brought into the spotlight. Should Pete have confessed immediately, probably, but we have all made mistakes that we did not confess to right away or at all. Has anyone ever made a mistake at their job that they did not admit to for fear of being reprimanded, or worse being fired?

All I know is that Rose squeezed out every bit of talent he possessed every day. When I see modern-day players pussy-foot around and not give it their all, it bothers the sh!t out of me. As a PLAYER, nobody gave more effort than Rose.

I could go on, but I'll leave it at this...I'm not sure what criteria the Hall uses to enshrine players, but if there is anything at all that mentions "moral conduct" or a "moral code", to be fair, we better start digging up dirt on everyone and start pulling some of those players out of there.

And for those who feel that Pete has not paid his debt to baseball, take a good look in the mirror...do you see perfection? Rose belongs in the Hall.

Edited to add: To put things into a bit more perspective, every day murderers and pedophiles are being released back into the real world (you know...the whole debt to society and forgiveness thing).

[william_9]

Pete bet on his own team as a manager. I can't see how that is any different than betting as a player, and actually, it's worse. He had control of the game in ways that no single player had. The fact that he was not taking the field is meaningless. He's like a petulant child these days constantly tugging at the media's pant leg.

I like J. McMurry's idea regarding the lifetime ban. Let him spend his days regretting his decision (it's not as though he can't make ends meet). Somewhere down the line, after Leo Durocher trips him up rounding third, and Ray Fosse can walk over and tag him out in front of the big home plate in the sky, once that happens, he should be placed on the next ballot. If he gets in, he gets in.

Oh, yeah. And Bud Selig will most definitely be immortalized in the plaque gallery.

[docpatlv]

Doing a quick bit of research, I found...

"Current rules ask voters to consider a player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, CHARACTER, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

So William, based on that criteria alone, perhaps Rose should not be allowed in, but then what about the racists (Cobb, Anson), alcoholics (Mantle), adulterers (Ruth), spitballers-vaseliners-emory boarders (Niekro, Perry).

What is your take on the "Character" issue?

Mike

[chaddurbin]

i think you're missing the point...that rose himself agreed and signed a document stating he's barred for life from baseball. his stats is hof-worthy, too bad he took himself out of the running! for him to make a scene now after giamatti has passed away is a disgrace.

[ChiefBenderForever]

I have no problem with Rose not being in the hall as long as they remove Anson, Cobb, Speaker, and a few others who played as hard as Rose and had the stats but had major character flaws which included gambling as well.

[william_9]

I think ultimately what happens is that the character of the player is judged using the standard of their time. No one would condone the actions of a Cap Anson or Ty Cobb these days, and their careers would probably end as a result. Albert Joey Belle is a pretty good modern day example. If he were a decent human being he'd probably have a lot more opportunities and thus a better shot at the Hall.

The list of questionable off-field, and sometimes on-field, offenses that are represented in Cooperstown are shocking considering the status that these names hold. However, when viewed within the context of their time, a racist in 1910 represents a huge portion of society. It's not right, but it's reality. Even a drunk like Mantle would be run into rehab today. That option didn't really exist in the 60's. The issue was squashed, swept under the rug, and forgotten. Heroes weren't made to look weak back then.

As for modern day voting, it's my belief that the game, and how the player represents it, is what matters. Pete Rose disrespected the game by betting on games that he had direct control of. That's not good for baseball. Neither is having Barry Bonds represent a generation of "me first" players. I think Bonds will pay the same price. Then again, no one likes Bonds as a human being either.

[docpatlv]

Quan,

I don't know 100% of what transpired, but I believe Rose signed the document because he painted himself into a corner. Athletes break contracts all the time. I understand that this is a different scenario, but what I'm trying to say is that it's not that cut and dry.

Maybe I am missing the point...My point is, based on his accomplishments as a player, he deserves induction. Noone can argue that. It's not as if he's trying to climb over the pearly gates.

[william_9]

Interestingly, Cum Posey, who was elected in 2006 during the Negro League vote, was known to have ties to gambling, and was a number runner himself. I'm not sure if anyone knows if he was involved in any baseball gambling. I'm sure we could speculate, but there's no telling why that committee voted the way they did. Whether it was purely baseball or if they considered other social and character elements in their vote.

[docpatlv]

William,

Phil Niekro and Gaylord Perry also had direct effects on the outcomes of games when they used illegal substances to their advantage. Mantle being hung-over many times over the course of his career probably had some impact on the outcomes of games.

All I'm trying to say is that people make mistakes, and to hold that over their heads until they're dead just doesn't make sense. If you can't agree to that, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Mike

[nolemmings]

if memory serves, the a$$hole signed the paper acknowledging that he should be banned, then after Bart passed away, he whined that he had some sort of unwritten, wink and a nod deal with Bart that he would be reinstated after a short time, and that he never bet on baseball but was signing the deal just to give everybody a non-messy out. Lying sack of $hit finally fessed up only recently that he in fact bet on baseball. Even though it would have been ugly, I always wanted a full blown hearing on that wooshbag, with him giving that defiant denial as each and every nail in his coffin was hammered. He should be shown for the selfish, narcissistic and lying dick that he is.

[docpatlv]

Todd,

Are you related to Ray Fosse?

As a somewhat ironic side note, I grew up in the town that Ray Fosse is from (Marion, Il). His mother was a patient of my father and she had Ray sign a bunch of memorabilia to give to me and my brother. Well, you know where Pete served his time...let's just say he wasn't warmly welcomed.

I won't argue that Rose may be conceited and as you put it a "dick", but again, I base my opinion moreso on Pete's accomplishments on the field. I only mentioned the character issue to try to help argue my point (don't think it worked).

Mike

[nolemmings]

Sorry if I came across so heavy handed--can you tell I'm not a fan of Pete?
I understand your position--no question the guy could play. I'm all for second chances too, but not for the Hall. I'm not saying the guy should be denied a job, housing, or medical care, or forced to live in a leper colony. Just cannot honor and exalt him to Cooperstown. I think most already enshrined would agree.

Of course, were you to sell me some of your px7 discs, I could reconsider my position

[docpatlv]

Todd,

I promise I will check to see what PX7 doubles I have. I think I may only have around 5-6 so I will try to send some scans/prices when I get a chance.

I wrote an article for Old Cardboard, but Lyman wanted me to revise and rescan things and it just never came into fruition.

I'll send an e-mail soon

Mike

[william_9]

Actually, I think holding mistakes over someone's head, especially when it involves something that people love, not only makes sense, but is one of the most basic of human reactions. Otherwise, why have courts or jails or even a Hall of Fame? If everything is forgetten once it's over, then why bother to remember?

It's a minor infraction in your's or my everyday life (betting), but in the context of the game it's huge. Having the say over how a team takes the field is something that Pete abused for his own benefit. This is insider trading for the rest of us, and the penalty for being caught is that you are no longer allowed to run anything.

[J.McMurry]

So should we let Bernie Maddoff out of prison in a couple years and give him a job with the Federal Reserve or Department of social security?

[D. Bergin]

Since 1920 betting on baseball has been THE cardinal sin in the sport. It was a mantra that was repeated over and over again in every clubhouse on every team from that point on.

It was made perfectly clear for decades........you get caught betting on baseball, you are out............Period.

Other issues of character are irrelevant. If you are concerned about other character flaws, then make a cut and dry rule and stick to it. This was about as cut and dry as it gets.

I'm not sure why Pete Rose should get exempted from this. Sure, he was a fantastic ballplayer with a 1st ballot, near unanimous resume.

However, I have a feeling if a middle of the road star like Don Baylor or Buddy Bell were in the same predicament, there wouldn't be quite the same uproar to get them reinstated to the game.

And, for clarifications sake........the Hall of Fame and the MLB are intertwined. If you are banned from the game for life, you should also be banned from the Hall. Period.

Joe Jackson was never forgiven, then neither should Rose be.

[drc]

Rose's story that the punishment was supposed to be reduced, despite the agreement he signed, is made up and laughable. Rose had legal representation for the agreement and, if the lawyers thought the punishment was only supposed to be a year or two, there's no way they'd let him sign an agreement banning him for life. They'd go down in history as legal boobs-- "Our client was supposed to pay a $100 fine, but argued it down to 20 years in Sing Sing."

This side "gentleman's agreement" with Giamatti is one of Rose's stories.

[Mark]

Even the most outstanding players need to follow the law. As others have said, organized baseball has long established that involvement in gambling is a crime, a mortal, unforgivable sin. Since Rose gambled on the Reds while managing the Reds, he must suffer for the best interests of baseball. Same goes for Shoeless Joe Jackson.

[william_9]

Originally Posted by J.McMurry

So should we let Bernie Maddoff out of prison in a couple years and give him a job with the Federal Reserve or Department of social security?

Of course not. The point that I was making is that once one is found to be cheating the system, that person is removed from the system permanently. You don't throw Pete Rose in jail for what he did, but, you also don't ever trust him to hold a position in the game ever again either.

Madoff wasn't running an insider trading scheme. His fraud was much more egregious.

[calvindog]

If you let Pete Rose back in then what do you do with McGwire, Bonds, Palmero, etc? He wasn't a player when he did this, he was a manager -- he betrayed the trust given to him in the most offensive manner. And his actions after he bet on baseball, i.e., the twisted PR game he's been playing for years, is actually more sickening. Just cause he's not in the HOF doesn't mean he's not a part of baseball history. His stats are clean and his place is secure -- just not in the HOF. Keep him out, make the penalties for cheaters severe and maybe one day a cheater may think twice before breaking the rules.

[J.McMurry]

"All I'm trying to say is that people make mistakes, and to hold that over their heads until they're dead just doesn't make sense"

William 9, that was the quote I was responding to. I think you and I agree, maybe I just used a poor example for comparison.

Pete Rose didnt just make a "mistake", he chose to do something he knew was wrong, and did it several times over several years.

[william_9]

Got it. The invester analogy threw me.