So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

[packs]

This is about where they were in their careers when they stopped being contemporaries after Clemente’s death. I don’t think Kaline can be considered an elite player from 1968 to 1972 whereas I look at what Clemente was doing and see an elite player still at the top of his game.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

This is about where they were in their careers when they stopped being contemporaries after Clemente’s death. I don’t think Kaline can be considered an elite player from 1968 to 1972 whereas I look at what Clemente was doing and see an elite player still at the top of his game.

Yes. I am aware. That's why I compared them at the same age.

In 1968 Kaline posted a 146 OPS+
in 1969, 116
In 1970, 127
In 1971, 144
In 1972, 149

He was one of the best hitters in baseball three of those five years and well over the league the other 2. This is not declining.

[packs]

Those OPS+ numbers are nice and do jump out at you but he played 102 games in 1968 and 106 games in 1972. His counting stars aren’t great in those years though he did continue to walk like a beast.

I just don’t think you could call him elite. But when I look at Clemente in the same time period I see the same player he was in his prime.

That’s all I’m trying to say.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Those OPS+ numbers are nice and do jump out at you but he played 102 games in 1968 and 106 games in 1972. His counting stars aren’t great in those years though he did continue to walk like a beast.

I just don’t think you could call him elite. But when I look at Clemente in the same time period I see the same player he was in his prime.

That’s all I’m trying to say.

In 1970, Clemente played only 108 games. In 1972, he played 102.

Games Played, 1968-1972
Kaline: 603
Clemente: 612

I am failing to see the difference or why Kaline's 2 injury years should prevent him from "elite", while Clemente is not given the same treatment for the exact same thing.

My only strong opinion is that they should be held to the same standard.

[packs]

Good call on the games played didn’t look as close from afar.

I don’t always like WAR but to compare both for the same time period:

Kaline - 15.5 from 1968 to 1972
Clemente - 33.2 from 1968 to 1972

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Good call on the games played didn’t look as close from afar.

I don’t always like WAR but to compare both for the same time period:

Kaline - 15.5 from 1968 to 1972
Clemente - 33.2 from 1968 to 1972

If the argument is that Clemente was better 1968-1972, I would agree, though I'm not really a fan of WAR as the arbiter, it has a lot of value opinions in it I doubt everyone agrees with. Especially the defensive component, which is where a lot of this gap comes from.

Now run 1955-1959

[packs]

No don’t get me wrong I’m not diminishing Kaline. I was commenting on the idea that Clemente probably had a few more big seasons in him had he not died. I don’t feel like he was on the same path as Kaline. Though Clemente could have just as easily gotten hurt in 1973 and never been the same.

Anything can happen with what ifs.

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by G1911

Kaline had 144 and 149 OPS+'s at ages 36 and 37, Clemente 143 and 138. Kaline was not declining at this time. This is simply untrue. He was league average at age 38 and 39, before retiring.

Kaline was a star starting in 1955, at age 20 (he got MVP votes at age 19, but he did not deserve them). Clemente's breakout was 1960, at age 25. Before 1960 his bat was below league average, 6% over in 1956 when he hit .311 with no power and walked 13 times in 147 games, but below every other year. Like Kaline, Clemente blame a regular at a young age (19 for Kaline, 20 for Clemente) but he did not perform for some time. Clemente was a star player for 13 years, Kaline 18. It is not likely Clemente was going to age so well to turn this into an advantage for him.

If we are going to give Clemente credit for fantasy years that did not happen on the backend, we should give credit to Kaline for real, actual years on the front end.

Precisely...If you are loooking at total numbers...not very close....if you are looking at longer/more productive peak years...again...not very close...if you want fantasy age 38-40 years...well bring your crystal ball

[cgjackson222]

The comparison between Kaline and Clemente in their later years is not an apples to apples comparison.

Kaline was playing a lot 1st Base from 1968 onward. While he was still primarily a right fielder, he played a total of 135 games at 1st Base between 1968 and 1973. In his final year, in 1974, he ONLY played DH.

When you play 1B or DH, you need to hit quite well to be league average.

Kaline hit average for a right fielder, but below average for a 1st baseman or DH.

So, Clemente was hitting average for a Right Fielder, and still a premier fielder.
Therefore, he was more valuable to his team than Kaline towards the end of his career.

[ClementeFanOh]

jhcollins- nope, wrong. I don't care that someone disagree, I care when
people aren't savvy enough TO STAY ON POINT. Nice try though! Creating a
thread with wonks like you in mind! Trent King

[G1911]

In 1968, Kaline posted an OPS+ (I can't think of a better solitary figure of general offensive performance) of 146. In 1971, 144. In 1972, 149 (which is better than Clemente). He wasn't a slouch in '69 or '70 either. From 1968-1972, Clemente posted an OPS+ of 153, Kaline of 134.

73 and 74, Kaline's bat was league average. Kaline was below the league average 3 times, Clemente was below average for 4 years, though he didn't play out his decline, for tragic reasons. I don't think anything thinks Kaline was performing like a star his final 2 years.

Clemente is definitely better from 1968-1972; which I suppose is the whole point of focusing on this section. Nobody is arguing that Kaline was better in this selected period. Clemente is a player I greatly admire and like. But we need not claim Kaline was performing as an average to below average player at his position(s) starting in 1968; that's just not there in the data. He clearly was not. Let's not get hyperbolic.

Kaline was far above an average player in 1972, as was Clemente. Even if we pretended Kaline was a 1B exclusively for the sake of argument. Average 1B weren't posting OPS' of that caliber, RF's were not either. Nowhere near.


I should probably stop before ClementeFan has a heart attack and goes apeshit on a fourth poster now.

[ClementeFanOh]

G1911- my "heart attack" can only arise from your actually staying point.
Ah well, even a broken clock is correct twice a day. Trent King

And the right call is still, and always was, Roberto.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Interestingly, for a great player, Clemente has some significant negatives/mediocre stats: home runs, steals and walks. In the end, based on a subjective judgment, I would give a slight edge to Clemente over Kaline, but I give very little credence to arguments Clemente was on a par or better than Aaron.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Interestingly, for a great player, Clemente has some significant negatives/mediocre stats: home runs, steals and walks. In the end, based on a subjective judgment, I would give a slight edge to Clemente over Kaline, but I give very little credence to arguments Clemente was on a par or better than Aaron.

Before looking deeper, I would have expected Clemente to have the better SB record, and while he wasn't a walk machine, I didn't realize how little he walked. I thought Clemente would have the higher OBP, and lose slugging by a wider margin than he does (He's only .005 below Kaline's).

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by G1911

But we need not claim Kaline was performing as an average to below average player at his position(s) starting in 1968; that's just not there in the data. He clearly was not. Let's not get hyperbolic.

From 1968 through the end of his career in 1974, Kaline's Wins Against Average was 2.0, 1.3, 1.3, 1.5, 1.4, -.7, -1.8. So from 1968 through 1974, Kaline's total Wins Above Average was 5.5, and his average WAA was less than 1 per year. Now, if Kaline ONLY played Right field during this time, his numbers would be much better. But he was hitting average to below average for a 1st basemen and below average for a DH.

He was also a fielding liability during this time with a negative dWAR in ever single year.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

From 1968 through the end of his career in 1974, Kaline's Wins Against Average was 2.0, 1.3, 1.3, 1.5, 1.4, -.7, -1.8. So from 1968 through 1974, Kaline's total Wins Above Average was 5.5, and his average WAA was less than 1 per year. Now, if Kaline ONLY played Right field during this time, his numbers would be much better. But he was hitting average to below average for a 1st basemen and below average for a DH.

He was also a fielding liability during this time with a negative dWAR in ever single year.

He was an average bat in 1973 and 1974. When were 1B's posting 134 OPS+'s as average? Let's not get carried away. He was getting on base and slugging well over average starters. If this is average offensive performance, Clemente has a whole lot of average years in his post-1960 career.

WAR hates his defense. I don't put much stock in that, some do. I don't think it's a very accurate measurement, though it really helps some players I like and usually works for the guy I like more than the guy I don't (though the guy I like here is Roberto more than Al). I don't know when his glove really went, I don't doubt Clemente was probably better on D late career too.

WAA has them essentially equal for their careers too, like most measures.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by G1911

He was an average bat in 1973 and 1974. When were 1B's posting 134 OPS+'s as average? Let's not get carried away.

I am not sure I am following. Kaline's lifetime OPS+ was 134.
But his OPS+ was 96 in 1973 and 107 as DH in 1974.

Other AL DHs' OPS+ in 1974:
New York: Ron Blomberg 147
Angels: Frank Robinson 146
Cleveland: Oscar Gamble 140
Kansas City: Hal McRae 139
Minnesota: Tony Oliva 109
Texas: Jim Spencer 108
Baltimore: Tommy Davis 105
Chicago: Pat Kelly 104
Milwaukee: Bobby Mitchell 103
Boston: Cecil Cooper 101
Oakland: Jesus Alou 83

So Kaline's OPS+ at DH of 107 was higher 5 other AL DHs and lower than 6.
The average OPS+ of the DHs was just under 117, significantly higher than Kaline's.

The point is that a player's value to his team has a lot to do with the position he plays. Clemente was still playing a productive Right Field at the end of his career, not platooning with 1st Base or DH.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I am not sure I am following. Kaline's lifetime OPS+ was 134.
But his OPS+ was 96 in 1973 and 107 as DH in 1974.

Other AL DHs' OPS+ in 1974:
New York: Ron Blomberg 147
Angels: Frank Robinson 146
Cleveland: Oscar Gamble 140
Kansas City: Hal McRae 139
Minnesota: Tony Oliva 109
Texas: Jim Spencer 108
Baltimore: Tommy Davis 105
Chicago: Pat Kelly 104
Milwaukee: Bobby Mitchell 103
Boston: Cecil Cooper 101
Oakland: Jesus Alou 83

So Kaline's OPS at DH of 107 was higher 5 other AL DHs and lower than 6.
The average OPS+ of the DHs was just under 117, significantly higher than Kaline's.

The point is that a player's value to his team has a lot to do with the position he plays. Clemente was still playing a productive Right Field at the end of his career, not platooning with 1st Base or DH.

Your original post cited his 1968 and on performance as average to below average. I was responding to that. From 1968-1972, he posted a 134 OPS+, finishing over 140 three times in those five years.

I agree, and have said a few times, he was just a league average bat his last two years while providing little value elsewhere. 1973, he’s declined and no longer a great or even a star. But that’s 1973-1974, not 1968-1974. I have, very specifically, never stated anywhere that Kaline was a stud in 1974. He was 39 and could have hung on another year or two maybe, but not as a real contributor.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by G1911

Your original post cited his 1968 and on performance as average to below average. I was responding to that. From 1968-1972, he posted a 134 OPS+, finishing over 140 three times in those five years.

I agree, and have said a few times, he was just a league average bat his last two years while providing little value elsewhere. 1973, he’s declined and no longer a great or even a star. But that’s 1973-1974, not 1968-1974. I have, very specifically, never stated anywhere that Kaline was a stud in 1974. He was 39 and could have hung on another year or two maybe, but not as a real contributor.

Yes, I was looking at 1968 thru the end of his career. You have decided to exclude his final two years, which obviously changes things quite a bit.

You are repeating that "he was a league average bat his last two years"
My point is that when you are a league average bat playing DH or 1B that is really an average or below average bat for those positions.

You also seem to think that dWAR is meaningless. Fine, that is your opinion. But perhaps his team thought he shouldn't play Rightfield any more because he wasn't good at it any more.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Yes, I was looking at 1968 thru the end of his career. You have decided to exclude his final two years, which obviously changes things quite a bit.

You are repeating that "he was a league average bat his last two years"
My point is that when you are a league average bat playing DH or 1B that is really an average or below average bat for those positions.

You also seem to think that dWAR is meaningless. Fine, that is your opinion. But perhaps his team thought he shouldn't play Rightfield any more because he wasn't good at it.

As I’ve said from the get go, I agree his last two years. A league average bat DH is not valuable. Absolutely nobody has said Kaline was great in 73 or 74. He was also not average or below average the five years before that though, as was originally argued. He was far above average starters at either of his positions (mainly OF). He was posting strong batting lines those five years. His bay isn’t in decline until 1973, not 1968.

I also agreed he probably wasn’t a star on defense anymore and Clemente was better. I don’t think we disagree; I’ve certainly written nothing contradictory to your point here. I don’t doubt moving him to DH at 39 was a good idea.

[isiahfan]

Funny thread...everyone wants to compare this year or these two years or three years that don't exist....

Please compare total careers...PLEASE...or even primes...but you RC guys are really focusing on the last few years...that Kaline played basically on one leg.

Simply...Career stats ARE NOT CLOSE...Prime years are really not that close either

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by isiahfan

Funny thread...everyone wants to compare this year or these two years or three years that don't exist....

Please compare total careers...PLEASE...or even primes...but you RC guys are really focusing on the last few years...that Kaline played basically on one leg.

Simply...Carrer stats ARE NOT CLOSE...Prime years are really not that close either

Do you believe that WAR or WAA are valuable statistics?
If so, have you looked at the career totals for Clemente and Kaline?

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Do you believe that WAR or WAA are valuable statistics?
If so, have you looked at the career totals for Clemente and Kaline?

I believe they have value to a point yes....but I also feel they are a bit flawed...like all metrics. And like all sports I don't think the numbers necessarily tell everything...they do more so in baseball than the other 3 major sports IMO. But when the WAR is that close...and I see a MJOR gap in counting statistics like BB, RBI, HR....and the stats that lean the other way are negligible....makes my decision easy. Macro/Aggregate view vs micro/hypothetical view for me

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by isiahfan

I believe they have value to a point yes....but I also feel they are a bit flawed...like all metrics. And like all sports I don't think the numbers necessarily tell everything...they do more so in baseball than the other 3 major sports IMO. But when the WAR is that close...and I see a MJOR gap in counting statistics like BB, RBI, HR....and the stats that lean the other way are negligible....makes my decision easy. Macro/Aggregate view vs micro/hypothetical view for me

Okay, well, I don't think any amount of statistical analysis is going to change your mind. So we will just have to agree to disagree.

I do want to point out that most people on this thread, myself included think it is pretty even between the two. You may be the odd man out in thinking that Kaline is obviously better than Clemente.

[G1911]

I am hard pressed to think of, among the greats, two more closely matched contemporaries at a position. Maybe Dickey and Cochrane?

Whoever comes out on top, it's by a small margin.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by G1911

I am hard pressed to think of, among the greats, two more closely matched contemporaries at a position. Maybe Dickey and Cochrane?

Whoever comes out on top, it's by a small margin.

Ooooh Dickey vs. Cochrane is a really good one. I'd have to think about that one for a while.

[Touch'EmAll]

Berra won MVP in 1951, 1954 & 1955. Was 2nd in voting 1953 & 1956.

Campy won MVP in 1951, 1953 & 1955

[Shemp]

Here are the top 5 WAR's for Kaline:

1961 - 8.5
1955 - 8.4
1967 - 7.5
1956 - 5.5
1958 - 5.5

Kaline's best 5 year period was 1955 to 1959 with total WAR of 32.6.
Kaline had 3 seasons with a WAR above 7.0.


Here are the top 5 WAR's for Clemente:

1967 - 9.0
1966 - 8.2
1968 - 8.2
1969 - 7.5
1971 - 7.5

Clemente's best 5 year period was 1965 to 1969 with total WAR of 40.0.
Clemente had 7 seasons with a WAR above 7.0.

So for me the question is "which player at their peak gives my team the best chance of winning?". Clemente looks to be that guy. Is he overrated? No. He's a notch below Aaron but above contemporaries like Frank Robinson or Johnny Callison.

Kaline may not have had as many high WAR years but was a very steady and reliable player for a long time. Is he overrated? No. Was he better than Frank Robinson? No. Was he better than Johnny Callison? Yes.

Full disclosure: as a kid in the 1960's my favorite player was Clemente.

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Okay, well, I don't think any amount of statistical analysis is going to change your mind. So we will just have to agree to disagree.

I do want to point out that most people on this thread, myself included think it is pretty even between the two. You may be the odd man out in thinking that Kaline is obviously better than Clemente.

I think it is very close...but my "statistical analysis" is tilted to the guy that had a massive advantage in some pretty big categories...RBI BB SB HR...everything else was +/- IMO

I think more people had/have an emotional attachement to RC...and thats's OK...he's more iconic for sure

I think...again...thoe trying to use "statistical analysis" for clemente are grasping at best using various random stats....where as I am saying look at there numbers as a whole where they ended up. No ifs and coulds or buts...no take this year or age or in the month of May...Total career stats. They definitely lean one way. Defense is a wash IMO...hard to give a guy a large edge oer another that has 10 GG and just as good of an arm.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Shemp

Here are the top 5 WAR's for Kaline:

1961 - 8.5
1955 - 8.4
1967 - 7.5
1956 - 5.5
1958 - 5.5

Kaline's best 5 year period was 1955 to 1959 with total WAR of 32.6.
Kaline had 3 seasons with a WAR above 7.0.


Here are the top 5 WAR's for Clemente:

1967 - 9.0
1966 - 8.2
1968 - 8.2
1969 - 7.5
1971 - 7.5

Clemente's best 5 year period was 1965 to 1969 with total WAR of 40.0.
Clemente had 7 seasons with a WAR above 7.0.

So for me the question is "which player at their peak gives my team the best chance of winning?". Clemente looks to be that guy. Is he overrated? No. He's a notch below Aaron but above contemporaries like Frank Robinson or Johnny Callison.

Kaline may not have had as many high WAR years but was a very steady and reliable player for a long time. Is he overrated? No. Was he better than Frank Robinson? No. Was he better than Johnny Callison? Yes.

Full disclosure: as a kid in the 1960's my favorite player was Clemente.

Wait, you're taking Clemente over Frank Robinson? Sign me up for that trade, I'll even toss in Milt Pappas.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by isiahfan

I believe they have value to a point yes....but I also feel they are a bit flawed...like all metrics. And like all sports I don't think the numbers necessarily tell everything...they do more so in baseball than the other 3 major sports IMO. But when the WAR is that close...and I see a MJOR gap in counting statistics like BB, RBI, HR....and the stats that lean the other way are negligible....makes my decision easy. Macro/Aggregate view vs micro/hypothetical view for me

Kaline played in one of the easiest stadiums to hit HRs in. Clemente played in one of the most difficult. Kaline hit 226 HRs in Tiger Stadium, Clemente hit 86 in Forbes Field. The HR gap is negligible. Clemente had a much higher batting average and provided a huge value defensively over Kaline. While Clemente didn't steal a lot of bases, he had one of the highest extra bases taken percentages. Clemente also better stats with RISP, .327/.485 to .312/.474 for Kaline. RBIs are product of your teammates getting on base in front of you (as well as playing in a small home park).

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by rats60

Kaline played in one of the easiest stadiums to hit HRs in. Clemente played in one of the most difficult. Kaline hit 226 HRs in Tiger Stadium, Clemente hit 86 in Forbes Field. The HR gap is negligible. Clemente had a much higher batting average and provided a huge value defensively over Kaline. While Clemente didn't steal a lot of bases, he had one of the highest extra bases taken percentages. Clemente also better stats with RISP, .327/.485 to .312/.474 for Kaline. RBIs are product of your teammates getting on base in front of you (as well as playing in a small home park).

HR Negligible?...Huge defensive gap over a 10X GG winner....

I don't do drugs...but you must have access to some great stuff .015 advantage in RISP....you are really grasping now

I get the emotional attachment to RC..iconic player.....but you really have to get off the nipple