Shoeless Joe Jax DIVERSION, why isn't he in any 1911-1917 major T or E-card sets ?

[tedzan]

OK, so many of you have expended all your energies on a questionable Joe Jackson "centerfold" on a T202 card.
It's about time for a diversion, so here is a thought-provoking question for you guys to mull over......

Other than the American Caramel (E90-1) and 1910 OLD MILL (T210), I find it very mystifying that Shoeless Joe
was never featured on any of the subsequent T-cards or E-cards (except E135 Collins McCarthy) prior to WWI.






Has anyone else ever wondered why this is so ?

If not, then give this subject some consideration....and, let's have a meaningful discussion over this mystery ? ?


TED Z

[tedzan]

Incidently, if I have left out any Joe Jax cards issued between 1911 - 1917,
please chime in with what Joe Jax cards I have overlooked ?


TED Z

[martyogelvie]

maybe his illiteracy kept him from signing many contracts?

I have read before that he was sensative to the subject and aften at a restaraunt he would order the same thing a teammate ordered vs having someone read the menu to him....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Cracker Jack is an E card, no? OH prior to WWI I see. Sorry.

[ethicsprof]

Peter, i think you're safe. Ted posts PreWW1, then 2nd post indicates
'11-'17.

best,
barry

[ctownboy]

Ted,

Aren't B 18 blankets considered tobacco issues from before WWI?


David

[fkw]

1913 E270 Colgans tintop
1914 E224 Texas Tommy




T cards....... I believe there just wasnt artwork done of him, otherwise if he was in T205 he would have usually been in all the related sets T202, S74 silks, P2 pins, etc. that use the same drawings.

E cards......... The E90-1 card he was a "common" (batted .130 in 1908, .176 in 1909) in that set and not a Star player..... and when the other sets that used the same pictures (E92,E101, E102, E105) made their sets he wasnt a Star yet, so didnt choose him. E106, T216, Tango and D303 could have though I guess since they are from a few years later.

[tedzan]

Hey guys, thanks for your inputs. I forgot that the 1914 & 1915 CJ's were classified as E-cards.

Anyhow, I'm really interested in your thoughts (theories) why Joe Jax is missing in the major
T-card sets and the majority of all the other E-card sets ?


TED Z

[brett]

I may have somewhat explained it in an answer I gave in the other thread regarding the question of why his name wasn't mentioned on the T202 card.

Originally Posted by Abravefan11
"I've tried to remain impartial throughout this thread but I must admit after closely comparing the newspaper photo with the T202 image I'm on the "It's Joe" team now.

With that said I'm perplexed by the fact that they would use an image of Joe and not mention him on the card. Other players that aren't included on the end panels are mentioned in the description of center panel images."

Here was my response...
Yeah, and I can assure you that they were all compensated and signed off on the usage of their names on those cards. Maybe they were simply never able to get Joe to sign off for whatever reason or he just didn't want to be a part of it. Laws back then were much different than they are today and it's quite possible that Hassan had MLB's permission to use any of their player's images as part of the set without having to get the individual player's permission as long as they didn't use his name. I'm a sports agent and there are similar rules today as it related to trading cards. Some companies who don't have MLB's license can use players images and names BUT NO TEAM LOGOS as long as they have a license with the Players Association (like Upper Deck now). On the other hand, card companies have made cards where they didn't specify players names because they didn't have a group licensing agreement (GLA) with the Player's Union, but they could in fact show team logos because they bought the rights from the League. Look at Topps football cards from the mid 70's to around 1981 and you'll see that all the helmet and team logos are airbrushed out (no license from the League). Look at Fleer football cards from the same era and you'll see all the players in team logos, but no specific mention of those players' names (no license from the Players Association). As it turned out, the fans cared more about the players names and statistics and Fleer was put out of the football business for many years. At that point, Topps then got the NFL's rights to use team logos as well. Hope this possibly clears that up.

ALSO, all the players pictured on end panels of the T202 set were from the same exact pictures used in the T205 Gold Border set. Players like Lajoie and Crawford who for whatever reason never granted their permission the be included in the T205 set (but obviously agreed to be included in the T202 set) could only be featured on center panels being as no end-panel artwork existed. Maybe Shoeless Joe never agreed for his name to be used on either. There were several other sets from that era that he didn't appear in as well. In 1915 when he was considered the top player in the game why did he grant Cracker Jack permission to make a card of him, but not American Caramel? I'm sure American Caramel would have liked to include him as they made cards of all the other stars of the day. Looks like Joe wasn't very easy to pin down and maybe he was just way ahead of his time when it came to guarding his intellectual properties.

[T206DK]

It could be that Joe's illiteracy kept him out of any deals with advertisers other than the ones we know of. If he received requests or contracts and never read them or responded to them I assume the companies just skipped him or felt he wasn't interested. Afterall, they were trying to sell candy or a tobacco and not cards of particular players. the feeling may have been that enough "stars" of the day were represented in their tobacco or candy inserts to attract buyers without the likes of Joe Jackson picture.
Does anyone know if Jackson was ever used to sell furniture or shoes by local stores in Cleveland....just curious.

[glchen]

I wonder why Joe wouldn't agree to this. I thought one of the reasons for the Black
Sox were that players were chronically underpaid by the team owners, so they
were looking for extra cash. So if these companies offered some dollars for their
permission, why wouldn't he jump at it? Maybe he was a very private person, but I
have seen him in posed photos from that era.

[FrankWakefield]

1913 T200s, the little ones and big 'uns for the Cleveland team.

[T206DK]

1909-11 E90-1 American Caramel Co.
1911 M101-2 Sporting News Supplements (03.23.11)
1910 T210-8 Old Mill Cigarettes
1911 T5 Pinkerton Cabinet
1911-15 Baseball Stars Notebooks
1912 E270 Colgan's Chips Tin-Tops
H813 Boston Garter
1913 T200 Fatima Team Cards (Cleveland-AL)
1913 T200 Fatima Team Premiums (Cleveland-AL)
1913 WG5 National Game Card Game
1913 WG6 Tom Barker Card Game
1914 B18 Egyptienne Straights Cigarettes Blankets (Purple Pennant)
1914 B18 Egyptienne Straights Cigarettes Blankets (Yellow Pennant)
1914 #103 E145-1 Rueckheim Bros. & Eckstein Cracker Jacks
1914 E224-1 Texas Tommy
1914 PC-UNC E&S Publishing Post Card
1914 WG4 Polo Grounds Card Game
1915 #103 E145-2 Rueckheim Bros. & Eckstein Cracker Jacks
1916 BF2 Ferguson Bakery Felt Pennants
1916 #86 D350 Standard Biscuit
1916 #87 M101-4 Altoona Tribune
1916 #87 M101-4 Burgess-Nash Clothiers

1916 #87 M101-4 Everybody's
1916 #87 M101-4 Gimbels
1916 #87 M101-4 Globe Clothing Store
1916 #87 M101-4 Green-Joyce Clothiers
1916 #87 M101-4 Herpolsheimer Co.
1916 #87 M101-4 Indianapolis Brewing Co.
1916 #87 M101-4 Morehouse Baking Co.
1916 #87 M101-4 Sporting News
1916 #87 M101-4 Ware's
1916 #87 M101-4 Weil Baking Co.
1916 #86 M101-5 Block and Kuhl Co.
1916 #86 M101-5 Famous and Barr Clothiers
1916 #86 M101-5 Gimbels
1916 #86 M101-5 Holmes to Homes
1916 #86 M101-5 Sporting News
1916 #86 M101-5 Successful Farming
1917 #82 H801-8 Boston Store
1917 #82 E135 Collins-McCarthy
1917 #82 E135 Standard Biscuit
1917 #82 D328 Weil Baking Co.
1917 #87 D329 Weil Baking Co.
1917 M-UNC Davis Printing (Team Issue)
1920-21 #15 W514 Strip Card
1940 R335 Gum, Inc. Play Ball
1946-49 W603 Sports Exchange

the above list are cards that feature Joe Jackson.

[tedzan]

Dave

That's a quite formidable list; but, the majority of those sets are regionals. Besides the 2 Cracker Jack issues, Joe Jax
is not featured individually in any major Candy or Tobacco sets during his great years with Cleveland and Chicago (1911
to 1920).

I don't know about you, but this mystery sure sparks my curiosity ?

I have some thoughts regarding why....but, first I'd rather hear Net54er's opinions. I think this is a discussion long over-
due. It's certainly more significant than the guesswork as to whether it's Joe Jax in a T202 centerfold photo (in order to
hype up the $$ value of that card).

Thanks for postig the list.

TED Z

[T206DK]

Ted, I am eager to hear your views. though Jackson was illiterate, he was also known as a shrewd business man by many who came in contact with him. He may have just wanted too much money as compared to other players of his time, and the candy and tobacco companies didn't really need him to sell the particular product if they had dozens of other star players of the day signed on. After he left baseball I think he ran several businesses in Greenville, which tells me that he had some business sense about him even though he had never gone to school.

[tedzan]

Dave

I do not think the "compensation" factor explains why Joe Jax does not have an individual card in the major T and E card
sets (T202 - T216, and E92 - E106).

As, he had already allowed American Caramel and ATC to portray him in their E90 set and T210 set, respectively.
There has to be something more to this mystery.

Come on guys, let's hear your thoughts on why the 2nd best batter in BB in this era was not featured in these major BB
card sets ?


TED Z

[steve B]

A few thoughts.

Maybe the earlier deal with ATC went bad at some point? paid less than expected, not treated well, something like that?

Maybe the candy issues while major didn't sell well in Cleveland so it wasn't a big deal?

could he have had an exclusive deal with a third party who signed him and would try unsuccessfully to resell the rights? Sort of an early agent?

Or an exclusive deal with someone who never actually produced a set or with a regional that had failed aspirations at being bigger?

Steve B

[T206DK]

Ted, I have read that he was still kind of looked upon as being a bumpkin even after he left Cleveland. Perhaps there was just some bias against him because of his simple country roots. Fans jeered him in Philadelphia and in Cleveland based on stories that were written about him in the newspapers I think.

[T206DK]

We don't actually know for a fact he gave ATC or American Caramel his approval either( or do we). someone else ( his wife usaully) would read things to him. Would they have used his image without his permission ? I don't know, but there was still a lot of handshake deals in business going on back in those times with no written contracts.

[Bridwell]

Hi Ted,
I have a newspaper ad dated 1911 with Jackson endorsing Brown's Hats. So he probably was not against endorsements during that time. It's possible that the tobacco company authorizations were mailed to the homes of players. This was done in 1908-09 and then the same auths were probably re-used for future sets by ATC.

Jackson didn't spend much time 'reading' his mail, and the auths may have gone out at a difficult time in his career when he was moving around and getting established. Later he appears in Cracker Jack, Texas Tommy and B-18 Blankets around 1914.

Ron R

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ted given that most of the major E sets (I think) are 1911 or earlier, and his first real full season was not until 1911, how many major sets issued after he was a well-established player is he really not in, at the end of the day? Maybe we should list those and compare to other players' gaps?

[tedzan]

Peter S

Shoeless Joe played for the New Orleans Pelicans in 1910, batting .354 to lead the Southern Association. In
mid-Sept of 1910, Joe reported to Cleveland and played in 20 games, batting .387....in 1911, he batted .408
in 147 games....in 1912 he batted .395 in 154 games.

Therefore, I'm reprising your words in a question to you. Was he at this point "a well-established player" ?

Peter
CHECK THIS OUT....I have listed 17 pertinent sets that defy all normal reason, as they didn't include Joe Jax.

The following 4 sets include Cobb, Lajoie, Speaker, Wagner.....but no Jackson.

1911 E94
1911 Sporting Life (M116)
1915 E106
1916 Fleischmann

The following Tobacco sets include Cobb, Lajoie, Speaker.....but no Jackson.

1911 T205
1911 T206
1912 T202
1912 T207
1912 T215-1
1913 T215-2

Furthermore, the following Tobacco cards were marketed in the New Orleans area

1910 T213-1 (includes 20 Southern Leaguers in that region)
1914 T213-2
1919 T213-3
1915 T214
1916 T216 MINO, KOTTON, VIRGINIA EXTRA......(these 3 sets include Wagner)


This mystery further deepens !

And, I'm still waiting for some one here (anyone) to provide us a reasonable explanation why Shoeless Joe
is not in any of these sets.....when his peers are in all these sets ?


TED Z

[tedzan]

Furthermore, to add more "ammo" to this mystery....Dave's (T206DK) lengthy list (post #13) certainly indicates
that Joe Jax allowed many less prominent BB card company's to print his image.

So, why did Joe Jax not appear in the more prominent BB card company's sets, as I've listed in the above post ?

Really, I don't understand why this subject is not eliciting more of a conversation here ? ?


TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ted, it's an excellent question. Do you know, on a related matter, why Walter Johnson isn't in so many of the "E" sets?

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Really, I don't understand why this subject is not eliciting more of a conversation here ? ?


TED Z

Thank you for trying, Ted.

[tedzan]

We had a thread that discussed Johnson's lack of of visibility on virtually all E-card sets (except for E91) back in 2006.
At this moment, off the top of my head, I do not recall the outcome of our discussion back then. Anyhow, let us save
that subject for another thread; and, get back to the question at hand in this thread


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Just some quick thoughts. Joe was almost inactive in the major leagues when the artwork for the T206 was produced. By the time he was in the majors and becoming a star T206 was coming to an end.

Does this help with other issue like T213, T214, and T215 that used T206 artwork as well?

T205's were produced before Joe was in the majors and not having a card in this set should explain his not being included in T202 as they share images as well. I still can't explain why his name wouldn't be included on the description of the center panel photo.

[Abravefan11]

T216 uses images from the E102 set which was also before Joe's time.

[tedzan]

Regarding your......
"I still can't explain why his name wouldn't be included on the description of the center panel photo."

My two answers to that......
Other than the T210 card of Joe, he apparently gets "No Respect" from ATC (the gist of this thread's contention).
Secondly, have we really ascertained without a doubt that, that centerfold photo actually depicts Joe Jax ?

Furthermore, when the T206 Southern Leaguer (SL) players were in the designing stages, Joe Jax was winning the
batting title at Savannah in 1909.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm quite sure that there are other T206 SL players representing Savannah ?


TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

My best guess is that it is a combination of before his time, sets using same images as before his time, and historical anomaly, and that there really is not any specific explanation such as he didn't give permission for specific reasons.

[Abravefan11]

I don't think it was a lack of respect from what I have seen (he was included in T210) but rather a timing issue. Most of the images used in the T206 set and E102 sets were created before Joe was a star and later sets reused the same artwork which didn't include Joe.

I'm not ignoring the T202 panel question I just don't think it is relevant to this discussion and I don't want to derail this topic.

Joe was winning the batting title in 1909 but images for some SLer's were taken from the 1908 season.

[tedzan]

Your...."Joe was winning the batting title in 1909 but images for some SLer's were taken from the 1908 season."

Joe was also winning the batting title with his hometown team, Greenville, batting .346 in 1908. In fact, the pix
of Joe, that American Caramel used for their E90 card, is taken from that team.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Your...."Joe was winning the batting title in 1909 but images for some SLer's were taken from the 1908 season."

Joe was also winning the batting title with his hometown team, Greenville, batting .346 in 1908. In fact, the pix
of Joe, that American Caramel used for their E90 card, is taken from that team.


TED Z

Again I don't think it was a snub by ATC but rather a matter of timing. No player that I'm aware of represents a Carolina Association team in T206.

When ATC added the additional 14 SL players they were 4 Virginia League, 4 Texas League, and 4 Southern League (Alabama, Arkansas, and Louisiana.) No more players were added from the Georgia area.

[Abravefan11]

Ted I think most sets on your list can be explained, the one that glaringly stands out to me is T207. His not being included in this set makes no sense to me. Four of the Cleveland players in the set were not on the team until 1912. Buddy Ryan played his first year of pro ball for Cleveland in 1912 and he was included. Given Joe's 1911 performance I can't figure out why ATC wouldn't include him in this issue.

[tedzan]

Your......" When ATC added the additional 14 SL players they were 4 Virginia League, 4 Texas League, and 4
Southern League (Alabama, Arkansas, and Louisiana.) "


Rockenfeld is the only New Orleans player of the Southern Association in this 350-only group of SL subjects.
Why wasn't Joe Jax selected ? He was the most popular ballplayer in that League in 1910.....and, is credited
with New Orleans winning the pennant.

Furthermore, the final T206 press run (460 series) occurred in the Spring of 1911....tell me why Joe Jax wasn't
depicted in this series with a Cleveland uniform ?

I'll tell you why....for whatever reasons, ATC snubbed him (as they did in all their subsequent sets).



TED Z

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

T216 uses images from the E102 set which was also before Joe's time.

E106s also re-use art from the 1908 E102 set, so it's no mystery why he's not in those. Also, T213s, T214s and T215s just re-use T206 art, don't they? Outside of the 1911/1912 T-cards, he's in about as many issues as we'd expect.

[botn]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I'll tell you why....for whatever reasons, ATC snubbed him (as they did in all their subsequent sets).

TED Z

And you characterized the T202 thread as guesswork? LMAO.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Rockenfeld is the only New Orleans player of the Southern Association in this 350-only group of SL subjects.
Why wasn't Joe Jax selected ? He was the most popular ballplayer in that League in 1910.....and, is credited
with New Orleans winning the pennant.

Rockenfield played for Montgomery in 1909. As you know the 14 additional SL players were added in the 350 series first released in the spring of 1910. This all happened before Joe began play in New Orleans.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Furthermore, the final T206 press run (460 series) occurred in the Spring of 1911....tell me why Joe Jax wasn't
depicted in this series with a Cleveland uniform ?

No new SL players were added after the 14 mentioned above and I don't think at the time the final 460 series was going into production Joe had done enough in Cleveland to warrant ATC including him as a professional.

Originally Posted by tedzan

I'll tell you why....for whatever reasons, ATC snubbed him (as they did in all their subsequent sets).
TED Z

Had Joe not been included in the T210 set I would agree he was snubbed.

[Matt]

Tim- - I agree with you that T207 is the only question, though Matty, Cobb, Young and Lajoie are missing there as well.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Matt

Tim- - I agree with you that T207 is the only question, though Matty, Cobb, Young and Lajoie are missing there as well.

Matt after more consideration I'm not as surprised given what you said. I think whatever kept so many other HOF players out of the T207 set kept out Joe as well.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Matt after more consideration I'm not as surprised given what you said. I think whatever kept so many other HOF players out of the T207 set kept out Joe as well.

I think those players were just too artful to put into such a drab offering. I bet seeing what the artist did with WaJo, they decideed to have mercy on the other superstars of the day.

[tedzan]

The 3 tobacco sets in the T216 issue, for the better part, borrowed the artwork from the E90-1 set.
Actually, I think it was the same printer. Therefore, Joe Jackson's image was available. All they had
to do was change his uniform.


TED Z

[tedzan]

I've had my suspicions that the T207 cards were not printed by the American Lithographic Company.
That may account for why Matty, Cobb, Young, etc. were not in it. However, a lot of other subjects,
that are not found in the white-bordered cards, are found in the T207 set.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The 3 tobacco sets in the T216 issue, for the better part, borrowed the artwork from the E90-1 set.
Actually, I think it was the same printer. Therefore, Joe Jackson's image was available. All they had
to do was change his uniform.


TED Z

Images used in the T216-1 set were a combination of at least 3 former sets.

E102, E90-1, and E101

Joe was definitely an available image for the T216 sets.

[Bridwell]

T207 has a very odd collection of players. I'm working on a set, and continue to be surprised at how many of the players were not in T206. Besides some stars already mentioned by Ted and Tim, there is no Wagner, Eddie Collins, Crawford, Evers, Grover Alexander, Plank, Baker, M. Brown, Walsh, etc.

T207 is one strange set, and probably deserves its own discussion.

Ron R

[tedzan]

OK, we have eliminated several of the aforementioned sets. But, that leaves us these remaining sets to consider.

1915 E106............................same images from E90-1, therefore no excuse for no Joe Jax
1916 T216 KOTTON................same images from E90-1, therefore no excuse for no Joe Jax
1916 T216 MINO....................same images from E90-1, therefore no excuse for no Joe Jax
1916 T216 VIRGINIA EXTRA.....same images from E90-1, therefore no excuse for no Joe Jax
1916 Fleischmann

Since Joe Jackson is featured in the T210 Old Mill set (Series 8), and American Litho. repeated many of their T210
images in the T206, T209, T211 (Red Sun), and T213-1 (Coupon) sets.....but, not Joe's image.
Why is this so ?

That being said, there appears to be no rational reason for not continuing to print Joe in the following sets, given
his tremendous performance during these years........

1912 T202
1912 T215-1
1913 T215-2
1914 T213-2
1915 T214
1919 T213-3


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Considering the T202 end panels are the same images as the T205 set and Joe wasn't in that set, isn't that a rational explanation for why he wasn't included?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tedzan

OK, we have eliminated several of the aforementioned sets. But, that leaves us these remaining sets to consider.

1915 E106............................same images from E90-1, therefore no excuse for no Joe Jax
1916 T216 KOTTON................same images from E90-1, therefore no excuse for no Joe Jax
1916 T216 MINO....................same images from E90-1, therefore no excuse for no Joe Jax
1916 T216 VIRGINIA EXTRA.....same images from E90-1, therefore no excuse for no Joe Jax
1916 Fleischmann




TED Z

Imagine if that awful pic from E90-1 was reproduced in all these other sets. Ugh.

[tedzan]

DITTO

It's a good thing they left him out.....

But, at the same time, the kids back then loved Joe and they deserved to have BB cards of him.
American Caramel should have updated their picture of Joe and printed him.





TED Z

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by tedzan

. . .the kids back then loved Joe and they deserved to have BB cards of him.

For Ted and all the kids back in 1911: