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#1
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I'm not saying that Liss was lying. I'm saying that he wasn't being directly asked how many locations did they print the 1990 issue in. He was being asked about the Bush card so inconsequential information to the point he was addressing wouldn't have been brought up by him. His point was simply that the Bush card was printed in a separate place from the 1990 issue.
For the sake of argument, let's say 85% of 1990 Topps was printed in Duryea and the remaining 15% wasn't printed in New York. There's no reason, and no reasonable expectation, for Liss to mention where that other 15% was printed in the context of the Bush conversation. Not to mention that he already proved his memory wrong with the 100 card statement. All I'm saying is that his comment serves to purpose in furthering or disspelling any theory. Arthur
__________________
"A lot of those guys don't seem to be having as much fun as they should be." Successful transactions with Burger King, Amazon, Great Cuts, Tacos Villa Corona, TJ Maxx |
#2
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Posting scans here so folks can discuss.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-TOPPS-...D/372496340533 Looks like a legit card to me. |
#3
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Looks real to me too; maybe it got a heavy blue color pass or something so the name is partially showing up. Kind of like the 1982 Blackless"ing" cards that had some black ink on the card. If it's a real 1990 Topps card, I have no problem calling it a NNOF error. Maybe BGS or SGC will holder it.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#4
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*double post; hate this computer*
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. Last edited by swarmee; 11-10-2018 at 12:57 PM. |
#5
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West, is that your card? I would think it would need to be examined in-hand to really form a judgment. Tough to see the surface of a card in a scan or photo. The accuracy of the area is pretty good though.
Arthur
__________________
"A lot of those guys don't seem to be having as much fun as they should be." Successful transactions with Burger King, Amazon, Great Cuts, Tacos Villa Corona, TJ Maxx |
#6
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Not my card. I have a partial blackless Thomas, the John Hart blackless error and the Jim Acker error so I am still looking for the Thomas and the 10 other errors.
Very true that the card would have to be examined by an expert under magnification to verify it has not been altered in any way. I'm guessing there are ways to recreate this error either by using a regular Thomas, a blank front or altering a NNOF, though the latter method would be questionable as the NNOF in what looks to be PSA 6 or 7 is already worth in excess of $1500. |
#7
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I'm sure someone could do it with carefully placed paper tape and the proper chemical. Just a matter of what the surface would look like after the procedure. I also don't know what a proper NNOF surface looks like under magnification. Did the process of leaving out the black ink also leave a different surface gloss? I imagine only someone who has examined one would know.
Arthur
__________________
"A lot of those guys don't seem to be having as much fun as they should be." Successful transactions with Burger King, Amazon, Great Cuts, Tacos Villa Corona, TJ Maxx |
#8
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I must correct the record on this. Tonight I spoke with a former Topps employee who wishes to remain anonymous. According to him Topps did NOT have printing capabilities at Duryea in 1990. They subcontracted out to other printers and had a company representative doing quality control at the printing house. The uncut sheets were then sent to Duryea to be cut up and assembled into packs, boxes and cases before being shipped out to retailers. Additionally, despite rumors to the contrary, this person did not believe that the NNOF was a "first run" printing error. His reasoning was that there was meticulous attention to detail for the first print run and more than a few people had to sign off on the first proofs. He believes that the error occurred sometime later in the production cycle as a result of some obstruction in the printing press. I didn't get into the finer details of the theory of the error causation (obstruction in the press vs. obstruction on the negative during plate exposure) as he was not directly involved in platemaking and printing. He estimated that quality control at the printers pulled a sheet once every 1000 sheets to check for errors. This may explain how 500-1000 NNOFs slipped out into packs. He did not remember the error itself which is not unusual considering the massive amount of production occurring. 1990 was probably one of the peak years in terms of total base set production run. Also, this person was employed at Duryea and the error would have been caught at wherever printing was occurring. The conversation was illuminating and it was quite interesting to speak to someone who was on the inside back then. This person gave me permission to share this information but otherwise wishes to remain anonymous and enjoy retirement and I will respect his wishes and not share any other details regarding him or his employment. Last edited by West; 11-14-2018 at 04:52 PM. |
#9
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I wonder if the grading companies (assuming they determined it was authentic) steered away from it because they would have a difficult time deciding how to label it. I honestly think, if it's legitimate, they should give it it's own designation like 'faded name FNOF' just as the 1937 D 3 1/2 legged Buffalo is designated as such versus the '37 D 3 Legged Buffalo nickel (for anyone who collects coins). |
#10
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I've looked at a bunch of stuff, and I think it's real too. I also have it on good authority that fading black without fading the surrounding ink is very difficult. I actually can't figure out for sure what caused it. The others are almost certainly from a big bit of debris, probably tape obstructing the plate while it was being exposed. If it wasn't then, the next likely problem is a bit of debris in the press preventing that part of the plate from being inked. But the most common of those would be a bit of paper, which of course gets inked, transfers, and looks totally different. Maybe a bit of saran wrap type stuff? That should take ink too, but might not. Usually to repel ink the obstruction has to also hold enough water. Most stuff like that is very transient, not usually hundreds or 1000+ impressions. If it's something blocking the inking, then this could be within the first few impressions. Maybe in the first 5? I have a card that has an additional 4 uninked impressions, so it can extend that many at least. But there doesn't seem to be a shadow of the border, which I'd think should be there. I can't think there was enough damage that a strip of plate got ripped out. With the pressure required, I'd think the underlying cylinder would have been inked but printed poorly. It could be a different blue plate that for some reason had the name on it when the rest didn't. That would be pretty strange, but then, it's Topps... Fortunately, the card has clues! There's a line from what's probably a plate scratch right near the left of the name plate. If it's an on-press obstruction, there should be cards with the same line. Unless the plate got changed right after the obstruction. And Topps wasn't great with registration, if the blue plates ever had the name on them, there should be cards misregistered showing a blue shadow of the name alongside the black printed name. |
#11
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Hey Steve,
Thank a lot for the response. Always like hearing from someone with printing experience. The line (plate scratch) you are talking about - are you referring to the dark line below where the "F" in "Frank" should be? Nearly all the regular NNOFs have this scratch, if that helps at all. You mentioned the number of impressions (population) of the NNOF. One person with 35+years in the printing industry said that the error was likely caught at the printers after 10 minutes. He speculated that this would have created 700-1000. He said that if it were a small number caught, say 100, then the sheets would have been pulled and sent to the bailer. What is consistent with this count is the former Topps employee told me that QC pulled uncut sheets every 1000 or so to check for mistakes and print quality. |
#12
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It would be a very cool card to look at under a microscope and see what is going on with it. |
#13
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Just because we can't imagine how, doesn't mean the how doesn't exist. Arthur
__________________
"A lot of those guys don't seem to be having as much fun as they should be." Successful transactions with Burger King, Amazon, Great Cuts, Tacos Villa Corona, TJ Maxx |
#14
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This card could be many different things but it is not a real 1990 Topps Frank Thomas card that was altered by just removing some black ink. PSA has put many altered/counterfeit cards in slabs. Getting something by them is really not that hard. They are better than nothing but far from perfect. EDIT: To ask, Arthur who are those people you watched reback cards? Last edited by bnorth; 11-22-2018 at 07:29 AM. |
#15
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That sounds entirely plausible. We probably didn't pull sheets for QC as often as that, but we also weren't doing the sort of production Topps was - especially in 1990. Especially when I was on the press, although I did get almost up to speed with the regular guys. What's especially good to know is that Topps was still using sheet fed presses, rather than web fed. (If the web press had a cutting station they still could pull sheets, so it's not 100% ) I'd be a bit surprised if Topps sent anything to the Baler in 1990. 87 through 91 there's so much out there for misprints. One Ebay dealer had a 5000 ct box of blank front/back cards, all from the same year. |
#16
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#17
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Is the NNOF semi transparentlike a tiffany????
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#18
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I've seen some people call it a "blacklessing" version similar to the partially black 1982 Topps cards.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#19
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You say "he proved his memory wrong with the 100 card statement". His memory was not wrong. Topps did not know about the other 100 cards until they surfaced later in the lawsuit. So Liss did not know. The only reason that statement was incorrect was because the 100 cards went straight to President Bush and the other 100 went out the back door of the factory or into wax packs unbeknownst to Topps. Liss can only comment on information that Topps makes available to him. All the circumstantial evidence pointed to Topps former printers going out of business in the early '80's and Topps taking their printing in house from the mid-80's to the mid-90's. We then have the mouthpiece of Topps say that the regular issue 1990 Topps cards were printed in Duryea. The statement, combined with the painstakingly gathered evidence from the last 4 decades indicate that there is a very high likelihood the NNOF was printed in Duryea. You are correct, it is not 100%. I appreciate a healthy amount of skepticism but this seems like quibbling to me. |
#20
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The 100 George Bush cards was what was officially noted in 1990 as being produced. The second hundred (sheet of 100) which surfaced were not known until they hit the market place and were produced differently than the 100 known Bush cards.
Now, Ken Liss and his family were not regarded as good PR people in 1990 BUT in this case, they accurately mentioned what Topps had told them. The Bush question is a good sideshow but not germane to the Thomas discussion at this time. Makes a better subject itself Rich
__________________
Look for our show listings in the Net 54 Calendar section |
#21
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I can't explain it any better than my previous 85% analogy. This is certainly a significant piece of circumstantial evidence but it by no means puts the issue to bed, like you suggested earlier. Arthur
__________________
"A lot of those guys don't seem to be having as much fun as they should be." Successful transactions with Burger King, Amazon, Great Cuts, Tacos Villa Corona, TJ Maxx |
#22
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Thanks for clarifying Arthur. Let’s push forward with our efforts aimed at digging for more clues.
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#23
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Happy to discuss this card
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As for those questioning the price....well I have sold and bought a few NNOF...never seen anything like this so why wouldn't it be worth more? I could be way off....or this card could be worth $100K easily if it got slabbed as a NNOF or even a partial blackless....and hit the right buyer/auction. And just as an FYI...I have had multiple offers...one as high as $3500...those educated about fakes understand this is an authentic unaltered card. |
#24
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#25
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Last edited by bnorth; 08-03-2020 at 08:19 PM. |
#26
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I do think the card is cool, and that it's probably an actual NNOF. Why the shadow of the name is there is a bit of a mystery, but I can think of a few reasons why. The normal missing black is from a poorly made plate where part of it was obscured while it was being exposed. Sloppy work, and if someone said the platemaker was asleep I might give them that.. Adding the name to a new blue plate by mistake is possible. It's not really likely, but neither is letting a huge bit of tape or something get into the plate exposing machine. (Both are so very Topps though) "Guys! The blue block with Frank Thomas's name doesn't have a name!" "Ok, I made a new blue plate and fixed it" "No! not the blue one, the black plate!" "But you said blue.... " "The block is blue, the name is black" Now there should be "normal" Thomas's with the blue name showing under the black if the registration isn't right. I haven't seen one of those either. But if they messed up and "fixed" the wrong plate there should be some. |
#27
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Could you please be more specific because I quoted two guys basically...one ran printing for two large card companies and the other is widely regarded as the printing error expert in the industry. I am neither an expert in printing nor print errors, but trust what those guys have said. Last edited by isiahfan; 08-04-2020 at 06:13 PM. |
#28
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The timing and positioning of posts 101 and 102 is interesting.
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#29
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And we still have yet to see indisputable proof if these were put into packs or not.
__________________
EBAY STORE: ROOKIE-PARADE |
#30
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The one that really makes me shake my head is they don't even have the sheet layout or cards on a sheet correct. Those can easily be found by looking at a sheet on eBay. When you have the easiest part wrong what are the chances the hard stuff is correct. I am no expert but I have definitely stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. |
#31
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Me too. Maybe he could help explain and straighten out stuff in the variations thread and help us differentiate between variations, errors and recurring print defects. We really do need an expert in charge of this stuff.
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