The Moe Berg Differential

[thatkidfromjerrymaguire]

I picked up a copy of the "The Catcher Was a Spy" (a biography about Moe Berg by Nicholas Dawidoff), and since it's pretty common that I enjoy acquiring a card of a player if I read a book about him, I figured I would pick up a Moe Berg card. Unlike cards of the other biographies I read (Mays, Mantle, Ruth, etc.) I figured this card would be relatively cheap. He's a "common" player. Baseball Reference lists him as having a NEGATIVE WAR stat.

Well, evidently, baseball card values can be based on more than just stats, because I was shocked at how expensive Berg cards are (he has a 1933 Goudey and a couple late 30's Play Ball issues). I was figuring I could pick up a beater copy in the $20 to $30 range. Nope. Nothing less than $100 and most well above.

So evidently, I'm not the ONLY person who considered getting a Berg card after reading the book (or watching the movie).

That got me thinking, are there other players that have disproportionately high card prices based on something other than stats or HOF status?

Maybe members of the Black Sox (not named Shoeless Joe)?
Michael Jordan baseball cards?

Can anyone else think of any baseball card that has this same "Moe Berg Differential" priced in?

[thatkidfromjerrymaguire]

Oh, and I'm not talking about scarcity. Obviously if a card is short printed, has a corrected error, etc. it can have a higher value. I'm thinking about factors that would make a player's cards more expensive relative to equally available cards in the set.

[BobC]

Benny Bengough and Andy Pafko - number 1 cards in two of the most popular sets ever.

Also maybe Ray Chapman - only player ever killed from playing baseball.

Bill Wambsganss - only player to ever have an unassisted triple play in a world series.

John (Jack) Graney - supposedly first ballplayer to become a baseball broadcaster/announcer.

Earle "Greasy" Neale and George Halas - both famous, but not for baseball.

Moonlight Graham - for obvious movie related reasons.

Dave DeBusschere and Danny Ainge - basketball stars.

Jack Kemp - politician. (Strictly football though.)

Johnny Berardino, Chuck Connors, Joe Garagiola and Bob Ueker - later on TV or announcer fame?

I'm sure I'm missing others. There are some other TV actors from football I'm forgetting, like Fred Dwyer.

[HercDriver]

The Titus T206 comes to mind...

Cheers,
Geno

[RCMcKenzie]

1986 Fleer Mickey Hatcher. About 2 weeks ago on eBay someone sold a PSA 10, asking over $1100 and 'best offer' was excepted. People are asking $150 for 9's and 8.5's. You can find raw for $5, but most sellers start raw prices at $30-$50.

[jason.1969]

1952 Mothers Cookies Chuck Connors

[Yoda]

I don't believe there is any significant premium attached, but I think the E90-1 Eddie Grant is somewhat special as he was the the only MLB'er killed in action in WWI.

[egri]

1952 Topps Tony Bartirome, due to that one guy hoarding them.

[BobC]

Just thought of a couple others, Dom and Vince DiMaggio, for a very obvious reason.

[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

Not sure if you are interested in so-called "art cards," but Helmar Brewing has some really nice ones of vintage and early era players. Below is a cabinet card of Berg which just sold for about $70.

[brianp-beme]

Here are a couple more:

Ten Million in the 1911 Obak set - name

John Halla 1912 Zeenut set - cool horizontal pose


Brian

[mrreality68]

Great history and story behind Moe Berg

Very interesting thread

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Here are a couple more:

Ten Million in the 1911 Obak set - name


Brian

Buck Weaver too. Black Sox generally command a premium in most sets.

[BobC]

And possibly Monty Stratton? You don't normally have Jimmy Stewart play you in a movie (The Stratton Story) without some extra recognition, right?

So the same may be said for Jimmy Piersall as well. Besides the notoriety for already having replaced Ted Williams in the '54 Bowman set, you get Anthony Perkins to play you in a movie about your struggles in life (Fear Strikes Out), and Karl Malden plays your Dad in it to boot.

[thatkidfromjerrymaguire]

Originally Posted by BobC

Benny Bengough and Andy Pafko - number 1 cards in two of the most popular sets ever.

Also maybe Ray Chapman - only player ever killed from playing baseball.

Bill Wambsganss - only player to ever have an unassisted triple play in a world series.

John (Jack) Graney - supposedly first ballplayer to become a baseball broadcaster/announcer.

Earle "Greasy" Neale and George Halas - both famous, but not for baseball.

Moonlight Graham - for obvious movie related reasons.

Dave DeBusschere and Danny Ainge - basketball stars.

Jack Kemp - politician. (Strictly football though.)

Johnny Berardino, Chuck Connors, Joe Garagiola and Bob Euker - later on TV or announcer fame?

I'm sure I'm missing others. There are some other TV actors from football I'm forgetting, like Fred Dwyer.

Excellent point about card #1 in a set having an increased value. Probably mostly due to the "Rubber Band Effect" making it difficult to find those cards in higher grades rather than just notoriety of being number one.

You have a good list of others...have you actually noticed a disproportianate value increase in this list of players (Chapman, Wambsganss, Graney, etc.)?

[thatkidfromjerrymaguire]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

1986 Fleer Mickey Hatcher. About 2 weeks ago on eBay someone sold a PSA 10, asking over $1100 and 'best offer' was excepted. People are asking $150 for 9's and 8.5's. You can find raw for $5, but most sellers start raw prices at $30-$50.

Haha, I forgot about that card. I didn't realize it actually sold for a premium.

But that modern Fleer card made me remember the "obvious" 1989 Fleer Billy Ripken. Even the readily available, corrected "black box" version can still fetch a couple bucks, as opposed to the nickel you might get for other commons in that set.

[GeoPoto]

Central Characters in Some of Baseball's Biggest Tragedies:

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1642016494
https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1642016499
https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1642016503

[thatkidfromjerrymaguire]

Originally Posted by Dead-Ball-Hitter

Not sure if you are interested in so-called "art cards," but Helmar Brewing has some really nice ones of vintage and early era players. Below is a cabinet card of Berg which just sold for about $70.

Yeah, I typically like the look of some of those "art cards", especially the Helmars. But I don't buy them, because I can't help but think at least a portion of their business comes from selling cards to people that don't really know exactly what they are buying.

I can imagine my wife or kids looking online trying to find a cool Christmas gift for me and inadvertently over paying for something like that.

[molenick]

I think Don Mossi cards go for more than most commons, although I do not collect any sets he is in, so I could be wrong.

Johnny Vander Meer and Don Larsen also come to mind as possibilities.

[maniac_73]

Bob Uecker comes to mind as he's more famous for his Comedy and personality than he was for Playing baseball

[chadeast]

Moe Berg's '33 Goudey was the most expensive non-HOF card that I picked up last year while working on the set, and was actually more expensive than probably 3/4 of the HOF cards. In addition to his exploits for the OSS/CIA (great book by the way, I read it last year), Berg also gets a bump for his Jewish heritage. Kind of like '33 Goudey #52 Andy Cohen, which is tough to find in good condition and also commands a significant premium, I'm told due to being a target for collectors of Jewish players.

[molenick]

Now that I think of it, what about Jim Thorpe? His card prices are not because of his -0.2 career WAR.

On a morbid note Harry Agganis and Ken Hubbs.

Art Whitney (but only "with dog").

[BobC]

Originally Posted by thatkidfromjerrymaguire

Excellent point about card #1 in a set having an increased value. Probably mostly due to the "Rubber Band Effect" making it difficult to find those cards in higher grades rather than just notoriety of being number one.

You have a good list of others...have you actually noticed a disproportianate value increase in this list of players (Chapman, Wambsganss, Graney, etc.)?

The Bengough and Pafko cards are well known for their increased values due to being the #1 cards in those sets. There's even a 2010 movie,"Cop Out", starring Bruce Willis and Tracy Morgan, where the whole movie revolves around a '52 Pafko card Willis owns in it.

Not necessarily a really huge value jump for Chapman, Wambsganss, and Graney, but they do have the unique circumstances associated with each of them that has some collectors a little more interested in their cards. And oddly enough, all three of them played together for the Indians in 1920, which is the same year Chapman was killed, and Wambsganss performed his feat in the World Series. After a 14 year MLB career, all with Cleveland, Graney went on to become the Indians play-by-play radio announcer from 1932 to 1953.

[Exhibitman]

Zeenuts:

--Jimmy Claxton: first African American on a US baseball card issue

--Prince Henry Oana: Native Hawaiian player

--Fatty Arbuckle: part owner of the Vernon PCL team

--The Jewish guys: Sammy Bohne, Solly Mishkin, Andy Cohen

--Football HOF guys: Jim Thorpe, Ernie Nevers

--I think there is also a card that is popular with LDS members because he was one of the first Mormons on a card. Can't remember who it is but I know his stuff sells at a premium.

Native American players like Moses Yellowhorse (Exhibit card)

All of the common guys from The Glory Of Their Times are collected for more than their playing skills. I bought a signed Wiliie Kamm Zeenut only because of the book.

Cruddy siblings of great players: Tommy Aaron, Dom/Vince DiMaggio.

The non-HOF Boys of Summer: Newcombe, Gilliam, Furillo, etc.

Guys who got injured: Herb Score, Pete Reiser, Tony Conigliaro

1965 Topps Masanori Murakami: first Japanese player in MLB. The authors of The Great American Baseball Card Flipping, Trading and Bubble Gum Book stated that Murakami was "with the possible exception of Yogi Berra, the only major league ballplayer who did not speak English." Speaking of that book, there are a bunch of bum players who were ridiculed in there and that, for me, spark a bit of name recognition interest when I see the cards from the book, like Coot Veal or Cot Deal or Sibbi Sisti.

[thatkidfromjerrymaguire]

Wow, you guys are really bringing it today!

Lots of players and cards mentioned in this thread already that I never would have thought of on my own!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by maniac_73

Bob Uecker comes to mind as he's more famous for his Comedy and personality than he was for Playing baseball

Mentioned him earlier already. And don't forget his added notoriety as the real life announcer for the Brewers since 1971, yes since 1971, and still doing them. He also did network broadcasts over several decades with ABC and NBC, teaming with the likes of Bob Costas and Joe Morgan. He was a guest on The Tonight Show something like 100 times, where it was Carson who dubbed him Mr. Baseball. Was the ring announcer for Wrestlemania III, and a ringside announcer for Wrestlemania IV. He starred in the "Mr. Belvedere" TV sitcom, along with cameos and other appearances and voice parts in numerous TV shows, movies and commercial. However, he may best be known for his appearances in Miller Lite commercials in the '80s, and for his iconic role as play-by-play announcer Harry Doyle in the "Major League" movie franchise. What a career!

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by thatkidfromjerrymaguire

I picked up a copy of the "The Catcher Was a Spy" (a biography about Moe Berg by Nicholas Dawidoff), and since it's pretty common that I enjoy acquiring a card of a player if I read a book about him, I figured I would pick up a Moe Berg card. Unlike cards of the other biographies I read (Mays, Mantle, Ruth, etc.) I figured this card would be relatively cheap. He's a "common" player. Baseball Reference lists him as having a NEGATIVE WAR stat.

Well, evidently, baseball card values can be based on more than just stats, because I was shocked at how expensive Berg cards are (he has a 1933 Goudey and a couple late 30's Play Ball issues). I was figuring I could pick up a beater copy in the $20 to $30 range. Nope. Nothing less than $100 and most well above.

So evidently, I'm not the ONLY person who considered getting a Berg card after reading the book (or watching the movie).

That got me thinking, are there other players that have disproportionately high card prices based on something other than stats or HOF status?

Maybe members of the Black Sox (not named Shoeless Joe)?
Michael Jordan baseball cards?

Can anyone else think of any baseball card that has this same "Moe Berg Differential" priced in?

Semi-OT to your question, but you should consider adding a Lt. Doolittle with the Moe Berg. He's in the Sky Birds set and another set that escapes my mind at the moment.

[GeoPoto]

Dummy Hoy.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

Dummy Hoy.

Good one, George!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

Dummy Hoy.

That is a good one George.

Along those lines I would also add Billy Sunday from the OJ set. Later on became a famous evangelist in the earliest decades of the 20th century.

[ValKehl]

"Shag" also appears in the T206 and T209-2 sets.

[molenick]

T209-2 B. E. Thompson (dressed as Uncle Sam).

Also any Mascot or non-HOF "with Mascot" cards.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I'll see your Dummy Hoy and raise you a Dummy Taylor. OK it's not a raise really, but he does sell for multiples of a T206 common. If Pete Gray had a card from his playing days I think it would sell for a ton.

[jimtodd]

I’ve definitely had the same experience as the OP in trying to buy Mo Berg, and also a similar one with Ray Chapman after reading Mike Sowell’s “The Pitch that Killed”.

These might be fightin words to some, but what about Smoky Joe Wood? He was a very good player for a few years, but his cards are more valuable than many HOFers.

Also Bo Jackson. Junk wax, and the man could mash, but was a bigger celebrity than a great player (8.3 career WAR).

[jsfriedm]

Merkle and Snodgrass. I keep getting outbid on nice T205s of those. A PSA 6 T205 Merkle just went for $1,000!

[thatkidfromjerrymaguire]

OK, to try and categorize some themes, it feels like here are some reasons a players cards might be higher OTHER than baseball ability:

1. Post baseball career (I think this category would encompass Berg, Uecker, and any another player who went on to be a politician, actor, etc.)

2. Tragedy (Ray Chapman)

3. Overcoming physical disabilities ("Dummy" Hoy, Jim Abbot, etc.)

4. Religious or Heritage (Jewish players, Native American players, etc. or other traits valued by large collector bases).

5. Freak Athlete in Other sports (Jim Thorpe, Michael Jordan, Bo Jackson)

What am I missing here?

[thatkidfromjerrymaguire]

Oh, maybe:

6. Significant, famous on-field occurrence (Branca, Thompson, Merkle, Buckner (do Buckner's cards have any kind of premium?))

[25801wv]

1984 Fleer Glen Hubbard

[JollyElm]

Not sure if it's still in effect these days, but the 1965 Topps Masandri Murakami rookie card was always stupidly priced only due to him being a Japanese 'first.'

[BobbyStrawberry]

Maybe someone can help jog my memory, but there's a basketball card that has the Mendendez brothers prominently sitting courtside.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by thatkidfromjerrymaguire

OK, to try and categorize some themes, it feels like here are some reasons a players cards might be higher OTHER than baseball ability:

1. Post baseball career (I think this category would encompass Berg, Uecker, and any another player who went on to be a politician, actor, etc.)

2. Tragedy (Ray Chapman)

3. Overcoming physical disabilities ("Dummy" Hoy, Jim Abbot, etc.)

4. Religious or Heritage (Jewish players, Native American players, etc. or other traits valued by large collector bases).

5. Freak Athlete in Other sports (Jim Thorpe, Michael Jordan, Bo Jackson)

What am I missing here?

Another category might be solely a player's interesting name (1911 Obak Ten Million is a prime example).

And interesting/different pose, such as the 1912 Zeenut of Halla, the Mickey Hatcher card shown, 1952 Topps Gus Zernial with the 6 balls stuck to his bat, the O'Brien twins in the 1954 Topps set.

Brian

[skelly423]

Wally Moon. You pay for a full card and only get a single eyebrow.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by thatkidfromjerrymaguire

OK, to try and categorize some themes, it feels like here are some reasons a players cards might be higher OTHER than baseball ability:

1. Post baseball career (I think this category would encompass Berg, Uecker, and any another player who went on to be a politician, actor, etc.)

2. Tragedy (Ray Chapman)

3. Overcoming physical disabilities ("Dummy" Hoy, Jim Abbot, etc.)

4. Religious or Heritage (Jewish players, Native American players, etc. or other traits valued by large collector bases).

5. Freak Athlete in Other sports (Jim Thorpe, Michael Jordan, Bo Jackson)

What am I missing here?

The #1 cards in some sets?

[kkkkandp]

While not a superstar, Dummy Hoy wasn't a slouch and he had to overcome a serious shortcoming most of his peers did not.

How about Billy Sunday and this guy...

[midmo]

Fun lists and categorization.

Chuck Connors is probably the top of the list for my collection. Thread needs more cards...
connors.jpg
Original Newton Estape photo, 1949-50 Acebo, 1950 Big League Stars, and 1949-50 Ansco.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by BobC

Benny Bengough and Andy Pafko - number 1 cards in two of the most popular sets ever.

Also maybe Ray Chapman - only player ever killed from playing baseball.

Bill Wambsganss - only player to ever have an unassisted triple play in a world series.

John (Jack) Graney - supposedly first ballplayer to become a baseball broadcaster/announcer.

Earle "Greasy" Neale and George Halas - both famous, but not for baseball.

Moonlight Graham - for obvious movie related reasons.

Dave DeBusschere and Danny Ainge - basketball stars.

Jack Kemp - politician. (Strictly football though.)

Johnny Berardino, Chuck Connors, Joe Garagiola and Bob Ueker - later on TV or announcer fame?

I'm sure I'm missing others. There are some other TV actors from football I'm forgetting, like Fred Dwyer.

There are many more when you think about it. I usually get San Diego baseball fans to guess the wrong answer for the following question:

What player born in the San Diego county led his league in homeruns 6 times? Most baseball fans from San Diego will answer Ted Williams because he's from San Diego. The answer is Gavvy Cravath. He's from San Diego county (Escondido). Williams led his league in HRs four times.

I think Cravath T206 cards have a small premium over common players. If not, then go get one before they do.

Edited to add - he missed a triple crown by being second in the league in batting average in 1913 - he led the league in HRs and RBIs that year.

I could go on...

[GasHouseGang]

There were cards featured in "The Great American Baseball Card Flipping, Trading and Bubble Gum Book" that came out in 1973. This book showed some original Topps cards and pointed out funny things about various cards which really made you want to pick up some of the featured cards that you never would have thought about. The 1952 Topps Gus Zernial is one particular card I remember that they really had fun with. The baseballs glued to the bat, Gus giving the okay sign, and his pink shirt. Just fun stuff.

[wdmullins]

1969 Topps FB Brian Piccolo.

[Mike D.]

Anyone mention the Keith Comstock minor league card yet?

[MINES_MINT]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Maybe someone can help jog my memory, but there's a basketball card that has the Menendez brothers prominently sitting courtside.