Compare the names

[Phillies*phan]

Look different to me.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/360781258641...84.m1438.l2649


http://loveofthegameauctions.com/Lot...ror---PSA-VG-3

[wolf441]

I'm missing it Doug,

What's the difference that you are seeing? Full disclosure, I haven't had my 1st cup of coffee yet

[slidekellyslide]

I'm not seeing it either, but it's hard for me to compare if they aren't side by side. So one of you photoshop experts get to work!

[Phillies*phan]

Might be nothing but on the Ebay one it looks like the "M" and "A" are low, far apart, and mis-shapen.

[frankbmd]

MAGIE and MAGEE are reversed in order on the flips. Do i win?

[Phillies*phan]

Not the flip. The actual card. Good try though.

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by Phillies*phan

Might be nothing but on the Ebay one it looks like the "M" and "A" are low, far apart, and mis-shapen.

Wow, good catch. Looking at it again, they clearly are lower than the GIE. Makes you wonder....

[ullmandds]

wow...great catch...after looking at numerous other magie error cards on the internet...I think this Probstein one is altered...def looks different than all others I looked at.

Even the M looks a little odd...and the "smudge" to the left of the m doesn't inspire confidence?

The probstein thickens!

[Cardboard Junkie]

This is how I feel sometimes in regards to the shenanegans that take place in our hobby.

[AddieJoss]

They both look good to me. Not looking with a loop it may be tough but they both seem legit from the scans.

[steve B]

Can someone photoshop a line on there?

I looked at the scans I've saved of Magies, and none have the MA low.

But I thought the GAI copy did. Holding a card up to the monitor as a straightline showed it's just about the same height. But the same quick check on the one in question also comes out as nearly on the same line, with the G slightly high making MA appear lower. Of course, that's a quick check using a card and a flatscreen, so it could be wrong.

The GAI copy also has a few things about the caption that aren't like the one on Ebay. Neither is a match to any of the ones I have good scans for.

That the caption area looks like a different shade compared to the rest of the border makes it a bit more suspect to me.

Steve B

[pencil1974]

Top is Love of the Game
Bottom "other"

I tried to blown them up and sharpen them as they are different sizes and thus get pixelated as you enlarge them but I think you can clearly see there are different things going on with the fonts. I've been a graphic designer for over 20 years and see a big difference when I look at them. Just my 2 cents.

You can see the shape of the letters is different especially in the "P" as well as the spacing issues. Sorry for the poor quality.

[auggiedoggy]

Originally Posted by AddieJoss

They both look good to me. Not looking with a loop it may be tough but they both seem legit from the scans.

There's nothing to lose since the seller has stated that this item can be returned for a refund.

[thehoodedcoder]

the ink bleeds. its never going to be perfect and crisp and identical.

that doesn't mean its altered. you just opened the door for all of the skeptics and the bashers.

i hope you all welcome another probstien thread because that is what this will become.

kevin

[Cardboard Junkie]

The "P"s look like different fonts.

[ullmandds]

For the record...it doesn't look right to me...if I were looking for a magie error...I wouldn't touch it.

The ink bleeds? Really?

The N looks weird too?!!
Honestly...it looks like the whole caption was "erased" and re-added...Every single letter doesn't look right if u look at Brads comparison.

Wake up people!

And I mean this in the most positive...optimistic way!!!!

[thehoodedcoder]

yes, the ink bleeds. the lettering in a delicate name is very open to looking different because of tiny lines, the amount of ink laid on it as it flies through the printing press.

do you think that if the 'erased it' and added it back so well on all of the other letters, they would botch only 2 of the letters? why wouldn't they just make all of the letters perfect?

and then that it would be completely missed by the graders on top of that?

someone that is so good, that they made everything else perfect, totally messed up 2 of them so badly that there are tons of people saying how bad it is?

not everything that has a minor issue with it is a conspiracy.

kevin

[ullmandds]

Kevin...if you can't look at brads comparison and can't see that every single letter is different...you are blind! You show me any 2 t206 captions close up...and the print will look the same.

This isn't even close!

This is a BIG problem...you'll see!

[nolemmings]

The card looks good to me.
They all look the same? Really? How about this one?


EDITED TO ADD LINK to card: http://www.milehighcardco.com/LotDet...ion-PSA-2-GOOD

[thehoodedcoder]

sure,

compare them now that they are the same size.

take into account the high rate the card would have been moving at as it flew through the press.

take into account moisture differerences that could have affected the cardboard on the surface etc as it sat around for 100 years, or if someone soaked it.

take into account scanners.

im not saying they are not identical. what im saying is that there are lots of plausible reasons why they are slightly different. all of those doesn't mean it is not real or untampered with.

kevin

[alanu]

The "A" in Phila looks a little small in the bottom one too

[ullmandds]

maybe I'm going crazy...I just don't know anymore?!

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by alanu

The "A" in Phila looks a little small in the bottom one too

right. because it probably didn't get all of the ink applied in that exact spot. i have half a dozen cards that are missing part of the R, and even more where a very small part of the letter is not perfect when compared to another one, ones of which i own both a real copy and another copy of.

i have cards with the same back and front that are identical and one is bolded and the other one is not and they look vastly different from each other...but both are real.

kevin

[atx840]

I don't really like how it looks, compared it to twenty or so other Magie's and only the Probstein example and the PSA 2 shown have the same font. Both are completely different then all the others. It might be a plate issue similar to the Anderson with a few variations but the font looks fishy to me.

The back & front plates for the Magie should be quite limited to 3 or 4 identifiable plates..think of a vertical stack of 3-4 on a sheet..maybe 1/4 of the plates had this issue and there are fewer out there.

I'm quite suspicious of it.

** these are lined up 100% based on the outside black border, the P shifts as do many colours/layers through out the printing. Steve, could we prove that all Magie's have the Ps lined up vs Magee examples?

[steve B]

The one Todd posted seems to have the identical caption. The shorter letters and a few other pointers. So right now I'm leaning towards it being real.

We could line up a few Magies in a similar animation, that would tell us a lot of stuff.
If the caption is brown and was laid out from a master that had the caption then the realtionship between the P and caption should stay the same for an entire press run. (Barring of course minor changes from humidity, shrinkage etc which should be very small.)
If the captions were done in brown apart from the artwork then it would vary, but should be consistent for each position on the sheet.
The other colors should move in your animation because of varying registration. If they didn't that would indicate cards produced at nearly the same time.

Now that Todd has posted one that's nearly identical, I think the card is more interesting than it first appears.
I've become convinced there were at least three printings with slightly changed artwork for at least some of the 150 series. Maybe more than that. I've been studying Magie because I believed it would have only been on one sheet since it's uncommon, maybe even rare.

This one along with the one Todd posted is making me totally rethink that.
There are a few little things that are exactly right between the two. Like the tiny frame break just left of the top center. But the remnant of an alignment mark in red at the top center is different. The Ebay card also appears to have less red overall, so maybe it's just underinked.
The caption seems more gray than brown on both. I've seen this on other T206s but haven't started tracking it other than a note that it happens. I'd thought it might simply be the use of a different brown, but it could also be the caption being on a different color plate. There are a few things I can think of that photoshop might tell us about color, but it won't be at all conclusive for a lot of reasons. (Unless we had the cards in hand, but Magie is on my "probably never" list)

I have been able to link particular Magie fronts with particular backs. I was getting ready to start organizing the scans so I could get the info ready for posting. I can also say that more than one plate was reworked to make the corrected version, since I have a scan of a Magie and Magee with identical recognizable backs and some front differences aside from the caption.

I'll have to see if the back of the Ebay card matches any of the others. It's not one of the obvious ones, so it may take some time.

Steve B
PS- Of course there's always the possibility that the card Todd posted is also faked, meaning there's someone capable of replacing a caption well enough to get past grading- something I consider possible but very difficult.

[ullmandds]

Mind you Steve...the one Todd posted is NOT identical...look how wobbly the letters are in phil. am...that's kinda odd?!

[steve B]

Yep, one of the differences.

Looking at the animation, the shape of the P is different too, but looks consistent with the one Todd showed.

But the overall look of the caption is very similar.

Nearly every T206 I look at in any detail has 2-3 different versions. Most slight enough that they can't be counted as variations, but different enough to see from even average scans. I think these two are probably a different run than the usual ones. Hard to believe there'd be two different Magies, but it looks that way.
And most of the scans I have aren't clear enough to tell easily.

Steve B

[Cardboard Junkie]

I'd like to hear Ted Zs thoughts on this.

[obcmac]

Looks like the caption has been re-done. That's the impression that it gives anyways. It could be the scan I suppose, but I wouldn't go near it (even if I could afford it).

Mac

[glynparson]

Than pretend I am 100% sure one way or the other based on a scan.

[Leon]

The comparison Chris posted makes one of them look kind of messed up.

[wonkaticket]

It also happens to have toning and dirt right along the caption area. While not meaning anything per say anytime I see a Magie that has problem areas around the caption I tend to stay clear

I'd have to see it in person but having owned a few Magie's based on the shots it has something that doesn't seem right at first glance to me...FWIW.

Cheers,

John

[atx840]

Quick comparison of "odd" looking Magie example posted earlier and a Magee sale tracked back to painthistorian in 2012 (thanks to CardTarget!). Waiting for higher res scans of Magee.

Both the front and back are swapped, the reverse has almost identical markings, even the factory line is missing paper/ink

[ullmandds]

Wow, Chris...great work!!!!

[insccollectibles]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Wow, Chris...great work!!!!

+1

[Cardboard Junkie]

Ay Carumba! Chris.....you're brilliant. After Tuesday even the week says WTF?

[steve B]

Wow, that's impressive.

Looks like changing captions well enough to slide past TPG is confirmed as more than possible.

The odds of there being two cards with the same paper loss and the same diamond cut that also just happen to be the same pose with different captions ..............

Steve B

[ullmandds]

i'm guessing Kevin still is a nonbeliever!

[jhs5120]

I see it was pulled, good job everyone.

[ctownboy]

Quick, call Joe Orlando!!!!!!!!

David

[atx840]

Found the Probstein example, same buyer as the first a few months later. Joe Orlando is looking into it.

121066385371 1 Piedmont 150 SGC 50 joesvintagesportscards -***d $270.00 2013-02-15 00:49:11

221062501656 1 Piedmont 150 PSA 5 painthistorian -***d $511.99 11 2012-07-08 21:09:21

[MW1]

So both the milehigh example (PSA 2) that sold for a little over $16K and the probstein example (PSA 4) are forgeries that came from the "Magee" varieties. I wonder if the same person is behind both frankencards. It looks like the work is slightly different because on one of the cards there is a lateral movement of text while on the other, there is simply a horizontal movement or kerning. I wonder if the former example employed newly printed letters.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Thank goodness we can all relax, Joe's looking into it.

[MW1]

Looks like the probstein auction has been ended. I have a feeling someone is going to lose his card grading privileges. Both cards are pretty significant forgeries as far as hobby history is concerned.

[Cardboard Junkie]

I see the real problem as incompetent tpg's.

[probstein123]

hey guys,
I can't give all the details, but one of the net54 guys was kind enough to email me ...
we ended the auction based on the data presented..
thanks for letting us know


rick probstein

[ZachS]

You guys never cease to amaze me with this detective stuff.

[Cardboard Junkie]

"The ink bleeds." ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[MW1]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

I see the real problem as incompetent tpg's.

David,

No one is perfect. As printing technologies improve so does the ability to create better and more precise reprints and forgeries. I could show you some that would make your head spin. That's why there is great value in the opinion of a TPG and a well-educated collector.

[Cardboard Junkie]

When it comes to forgeries and altered cards, opinions should have nothing to do with it. Condition Yes, that is opinion. Forgeries and alterations are science.