Question about a lot in the last Hunt Auction

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Posted By: Jim VB

Matt,

If your absentee bid was $750 and someone on the floor bid $1200, what does it matter to you if it actually sold or not?

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Posted By: leon

"What this says to me is that the auctioneer hammering the lot is not sufficent. He must also say "sold".


If it's not sold and hammered then they really should say something like (hammer sound)...."NOT SOLD"


I am not saying anything was necessarily done fraudulently but if something is hammered and nothing is said then I would believe it's sold....but I guess I am naive...


I do think it was probably an honest mistake but still........

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

"Does that mean that if he doesn't utter the particular word "sold," any lot can be withheld from any buyer for any reason? If so the whole auction concept is meaningless."

As a matter of law, I believe there would need to be a reason not to utter the word "sold". Otherwise, as you say, the whole auction could be a sham. Such a reason can be, as the Terms say, that the auctioneer determines the bid is not commensurate with the value of the lot. The Terms were no doubt drafted to protect the auction house from good faith errors, undervaluing a lot being one. Inasmuch as Hunt makes its money by selling its lots and making its buyers and sellers believe that they act in a honest upfront manner, I don't think they would withdraw a lot unless they had good cause to believe they missed something and that they did not adequately protect their consigner. Sure, if an auction house is dishonest such Terms of Sale can give them perhaps a bit too much leeway. After all, it can be very difficult to prove the reasons for the withdrawal. But as has been stated by a number of posters, Hunt over the years has earned a reputation for comporting with the highest standards of integrity. And I'd be shocked if they intended anything underhanded with what they did here. Perhaps they could have communicated better before the lot went up, or perhaps they erred in some other way, and perhaps going forward they can improve certain things to prevent future misunderstandings of this sort, but I don't think they intended to act dishonestly.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Leon,

I agree with you that the auctioneer should say something if the lot doesn't sell. And I believe most/many do. Sotheby's, for example, I believe will say "pass" if the lot doesn't sell. However, in Hunt's case pursuant to their Terms of Sale, if the auctioneer doesn't utter the magic word "sold", they have a legal basis to say title did not pass and the lot did not sell. However, to repeat what I said, knowing David Hunt as I do, I'm sure he's not trying to piss his customers off by relying on legal nuance. Something probably passed under the radar here as far as communicating what was happening, and an innocent misunderstanding took place.

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Corey,

In case you were waiting with bated breath (that is spelled correctly, everyone-- you can look it up), let me say that I concur with your last post entirely--

Tim

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

So I'm curious--you said there was nothing unusual about the hammering of this lot. Did you hear them say "sold"? Did they say "sold" on all of their other lots that presumably "sold"?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Tim- I did look it up and you are right, it is "bated."

I learned something new today.

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Hi Barry-- hey, I do this for a living!

Hi Todd--
I'm trying to summon up a vivid auditory memory of what he says at the end. I think the guy says "sold," doesn't he? Can anyone else who attended help here? Certainly one is in no doubt when the lot closes, so he must say something definitive like that-- But as Corey says, Hunt is not going to hide behind a technicality like whether this word or that word is used.

In fact, I would be willing to bet the auctioneer is not even aware of any reserve as he stands up there. His job is simply to run the bidding and get it as high as possible-- Dave Hunt stands to his side and takes care of any irregularities or questions about the individual lots, announces the top absentee bid, and so on. Sometimes they use multiple auctioneers on a given day, and these guys are professional callers, not experts in cards-- they do antiques and whatever else too. So whether they say "sold" or some other word is not going to determine the ultimate fate of the lot-- Dave is in charge of that.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Tim,

The auctioneer has to know the reserve. After all, he is the one who is to annnounce at the completion of the bidding if the lot sold and he cannot do that if he doesn't know the reserve, nor for that matter can he attempt to raise the bidding to the reserve level through the submission of house bids unless he knows how high he needs to go. In any live auction the action goes so fast (typically 60-100 lots per hour) that it simply is not feasible for the auctioneer to consult with the auction house representative prior to the offering of each lot. I suspect in the instance at hand, either due to a printing error or new information the auction house received after the catalog went to press, the catalog listed the wrong estimated value. Inasmuch as the reserve cannot be higher than the low-end estimated value, when Hunt prior to the start of the auction changed the estimated value to a higher range, this then allowed them to raise the reserve. Very possibly the 1,200 bid was a house bid one level lower the new reserve -- 1,250. When no one placed a bid at that reserve level, the lot passed. To one attending the auction, likely unaware of the new estimated value (and thus new reserve), upon hearing the 1,200 (house) bid and seeing that number at well above the published low-end estimate, he assumed the lot sold. My guess is that the auctioneer, no doubt aware of the new reserve/estimated value, never uttered the word "sold" and might in fact have uttered the word "pass". I know many times when I attend live auctions unless I am carefully paying attention I often do not hear the words "sold" or "pass", even though they were in fact uttered. It is also possible that prior to the start of the auction or the offering of the lot the auctioneer announced to those paying attention that the lot had a new estimated value, though it is also possible that due to oversight he did not announce this. If he did not, as has been noted by others, Hunt made an innocent oversight. Knowing how they operate, I'm sure they will learn from this incident and take measures to avoid repeat occurrences.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I have attended quite a few live auctions too, and as a general rule if the auctioneer cries "Sold" (it is called crying, as in "The Crying of Lot 49"), he generally says it boldly; but if he cries "Pass" it is generally done quietly and is sometimes difficult to hear.

On more than one occasion I've turned to the person next to me and asked "did he just say 'sold' or 'passed'?"

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Posted By: dan mckee

What reserve??? Hunt's numbers attached to their lots are estimated values, I never heard of them having reserves. If the item opens, then it sells, period. I attend all of their live auctions though I do not keep records as well as Tim does. The only way Tim made a mistake writing that lot down is if I was talking to him, I think I messed him up once or twice. There was one lot that was withdrawn and David hunt mentioned that and it never came to the auction block. I am not sure what lot that was. Dan.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I've long thought that terms that auction folks use are inaccurate.

When an estimated price or value is listed, that seems that it should normally mean the house's estimate of the value of the item. If they want to list a minimum bid, they could do that... and a minimum bid would mean the minimum bid that would be excepted. That isn't rocket science.

If they don't want to list what the minimum bid is, that seems acceptable to me. But in that instance they should note in the listing that there is an undisclosed reserve.


I say all of this because I understand Matt's frustration. This would not have happened if the practice was what I set out above. The lot would have been listed with an estimated value range and a notation that there is an undisclosed reserve. Matt should have been able to ask if his bid had reached the minimum, and been told whether it had. Kinda like on eBay where it says your bid is the highest, but that it has not reached the reserve. Whenever there is an undisclosed reserve the auction house should announce when the reserve has been met.

And I agree with Barry on the 'sold' and 'pass'. I don't think it is correct for the auctioneer to indicate or announce that a lot sold if it didn't. An announcement of 'the bidding has ended and the reserve has not been met, the lot is passed', or something along those lines.

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Posted By: Mike Peich

Tim Newcomb, Dan McKee and I all sat together at the recent Hunt Auction (I'm Tim's unnamed "friend"), and Tim and I kept a record of the final prices for each item. We both recorded $1200 for the disputed Lot #397. That said, as Dan has mentioned, he did interrupt us a few times during the proceedings (VERY entertainingly so, I might add), and it's possible we didn't record the right amount. In fact, I don't recall if the auctioner said sold for that lot, or any other lot, with the exception of the Novelty Cutlerys--I was really paying attention to those. For all I know Dan was still gloating over the bobble-heads he had just bought, and we were giving him deserved smack about his purchases, and we may have missed comments about #397. (Sorry to out you on those bobble-heads, Dan.)

Whatever happened, David Hunt and his auction house staff are highly ethical, fair, and responsive to the hobby and its collectors. If this was an oversight by them, you can be assured that it will not happen in the future. I'm sorry Matt didn't get his lot (who wouldn't be disappointed?), but it's time to bring closure to this and move on. Hunt Auction is not the Darth Vader of auction houses--I can think of a few who might possibly fit that description.

Have a great week-end, all, and start thinking March 31st--Opening Day!

Cheers, Mike

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Posted By: dan mckee

I won some nodders?? oh yea! I spent a fortune Friday night and nothing on Saturday. Ummm, lets see, what is the main variance between Friday night and Saturday at a Hunt auction??? oh yea! The bar is open!!!!!!! David Hunt should pay my tab. On a serious note, I have won lots before for less than the estimated value and never had a problem so I am still confused about a reserve. Dan.

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Posted By: JK

Dan,

I may be mistaken, but I believe that while all lots have an estimated value, not all lots have a hidden reserve.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

My understanding how live auctions such as Hunt's, Sotheby's, Christies, etc. work is that there ARE undisclosed reserves which BY LAW may not be higher than the low-end estimate. Therefore if the estimated value for the lot is say 1,500-2,000, the reserve may not be higher than 1,500 and may in fact be lower. That is why in many instances the estimated values for lots appear too high. The auction house is well aware that the lower the estimates, the more interest will be generated and more often than not that will translate into a higher realized price. However, there is a risk to that strategy. The item could fall flat resulting in a realized price way too low for what the seller wanted. Therefore many sellers to guard against that happening insist on a healthy reserve. That in turn FORCES the auction house to raise the estimated value so the low-end estimate is not lower than the reserve.

Over the years when there have been items I've been interested in but noticed extremely high estimated values, I've tried to feel out the auction house to see if I can get any bits of info that could help me get a sense for what the reserve is (which live auction houses by policy do not disclose). I am interested to know if the reserve is at or near the low-end estimate. If I get the sense it is then I know that this is a lot I will not get my hopes up for winning because it will require too high a bid.