Board With The Truth

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Posted By: bruce dorskind

We begin this post by stating that we have no tolerance for any collector,
dealer or auctioneer that alters a card, knowingly sells an item that is not
as advertised and/or allows or encourages shill bidding in his/her auction.

These actions represent both ethical and legal violations, and should be
severely punished to the full extent the law allows.

However, we also find it remarkable that Board Members who are
suppose to be so knowledgeable about the Hobby and the industry,
make comments and draw conclusions about a company, or a person
which has little basis in fact. Whilst one can understand the emotional
disapppointment and economic consequences of discovering one
paid for something other than what one expected, we are talking
about cardboard. Errors occur in every business.

The point is that this is a business, not a hobby, and everyone makes
mistakes. How many of you have a business where your "error rate"
runs less than 2%? Now let's look at the facts about PSA.


About PSA

PSA is one of the brands owned by Collectors Universe, a publicly traded
company. Collectors Universe is a small compay with revenues of
less than $35 million. Its largest individual shareholder is its CEO, David Hall.

In the latest year for which data is available, Collectors Universe
graded 2.86 million items. 58% of these items were coins and
38% were sports cards.

However if one looks at the value of items graded, coins
represented $1.2 billion in value and sports cards representd
only $66 million in value.

In terms of revenue for Collectors Universe coins represent 69%
of revenue and sports cards represent 24% of revenue.

Given these facts, a small dealer who runs three 1000 lot auctions a year
(assume 50% of the lots were graded by PSA) means said dealer's
business with Collector's Universe represents less than a fraction of
1% of their total business.

Therefore it is doubtful that PSA and Memory Lane, for example,
have economic ties which could influence Collector's Universe'
share price.

On the Collectors Universe web site (www.collectors.com), one can
find a complete list of their experts. They list over 50 such experts
across all their brands. None appear to be significant shareholders
in the company.

Finally, for those who want to gain deeper insight into Collectors
Universe and their future business directions, there is a publicly
available web cast which will take place on Tuesday January 9
which is tomorrow.

The link to said web cast can be found at

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?p=irol-eventDetails&c=80247&eventID=1420139

Thanks for your time. Your comments are welcomed.

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: barrysloate

Bruce- for the vast majority it is still a hobby.

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Posted By: bruce dorskind

Barry

Whilst it is nice to pretend that collecting rare graded baseball
cards is only a "hobby", how can one explain the heated discussions
about "altered" cards, auction fees and the grading companies?

Why do 75% of the long threads on the Board focus on ethics
and grading standards rather than debate on beauty, rarity
or collectors clubs?

If there are a $100 million a year in new graded cards (assume
PSA is 65% of the market) and $100 million in auction revenue
from the top 9 auction houses, and E Bay generates tens of
millions in fees from sports cards does that sound like
a hobby or a business?

Collectors can say my hobby is collecting rare E cards but
when it comes time to acquiring said items it is strickly business.

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: barrysloateb

I still think most collectors consider it their hobby. They have regular day jobs and they buy memorabilia in their spare time with their expendable cash, and they have fun building sets and interacting with fellow collectors. The fact that cards are expensive and there is a lot of competition to get them doesn't really change the spirit of what they do. It may be big business for the dealers, but that is not a collector's focus.

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Posted By: Dave

While vintage cards can obviously be a profit making business...I think the collectors on this board for the vast majority are not in it for such. Of course there are thousands of guys that are, but kind of the wrong audience here IMO. Just not sure what someone that treats thier cards like a stock portfolio would find beneficial from this site. It's a hobby site, it's a love for the cards site first and foremost. Granite probably everyone here has benefited from buying a card at one price and later selling it higher...but unless your Bruce most people aren't buying a card for 250k and later selling it for 400k.....when most here don't have that kind of money to throw around it doesn't make sense to consider cards like stocks....I mean am I supposed to get excited from buying a card for $400 and selling it for $600? Not exactly working towards my retirement.

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Posted By: Brian

Who is "we" Bruce?

I will have some tea whilst awaiting your response.

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Bruce,

We here at the Josh Adams group thank you for your opinion. Whilst large amounts of money are spent on the hobby for some, that does not mean that others do not consider it still just a "hobby." That is what collecting is for me, er, I mean us. We, yes that's right, we consider it a hobby, an escape from the everyday life. Beacuse SOME go into business selling cards, yes part of it is a business.

Also, I find it hilarious, yes, hilarious, that you have such a low tolerance and abhorance for those who alter cards, remove a crease or iron out wrinkles, yet when a guy who heads up a major auction is convicted in a federal court for stealing money from charities, people shouldn't judge him.
So let me get this straight, according to the Dorskind Group, altering cards =bad. Conviction for fraud in federal court = eh, let's not jump to conclusions.

Your hypocrisy is not only enlightening, it provides us with hours of reading enjoyment. I guess if you need "high grade, best of the best, whatnot," it's ok to look the other way.



Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: bruce dorskind

Your comments whilst opinionated and sarcastic are also inaccurate.

We certainly did not say it was acceptable to commit fraud,
Rather our comments focused on those individuals who raised
the issue of Marshall Fogel being a paid employee of PSA, and
that there was special economic relationship between Memory
Lane and Collectors Universe.

In fact, we condemn, not condone, all illegal behavior. We believe
in the maximum penalty for the violation of any crime.

Furthermore, if you would take the time to research a cadre
of other dealers and collectors, some of whom regularly
receive high praise from the Board, you would discover
a history that is less than stellar.

If you believe for one second that the historic problems that one
of the principals of a certain auction house had in the past will deter those
collectors who protest so loudly from bidding on a card they really
want, perhaps you be should be arrested for using illegal drugs


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: Josh Adams

"If you believe for one second that the historic problems that one
of the principals of a certain auction house had in the past will deter those
collectors who protest so loudly from bidding on a card they really
want, perhaps you be should be arrested for using illegal drugs."

Bruce, show us where we even hinted at this?! This kid was convicted on federal fraud charges. He intentionally lied to people in order to con them out of money that was allegedly going to help others less fortunate. We don't care if the Dorsking Group or other collectors/businessmen, etc, will continue to "search for the best of the best of the best."
Let me ask you this Bruce. If you discovered that someone you conducted business with was in jail not even 5 years ago on fraud charges, how quickly would you be to give that person another chance? It's all fine and dandy when talking about others, and other abstract ideas, but when it comes down to your own pocketbook, what would you do?

All we wanted to do was point out your hypocracy. Which you did for us all on your own. Way to go, tiger.

"Arrested for using illegal drugs?" Where did that come from?
We suggest that you retake any reading comprehension classes that you previously took, in order to actually post a response that resembles coherent thought. We wish you the best in that endevor!




Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: andy becker

josh,
whilst you may have your own ideas regarding this thread, we thinks you are wasting your time.

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Mr. Becker,

We think you're right. We're done! On to more pressing matters.

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: bruce dorskind

Josh:

Perhaps, if you took more time to think about what you are saying,
you would learn how to spell simple words like

endeavor
hypocrisy


Bruce Dorskind

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Ah yes, pointing out simple spelling errors instead of addressing actual substantive points is most certainly the mature way to proceed.

We are all proud of your ability with the english language, Sir Bruce.

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

edit to add:

"We believe in the maxium penalty for the violation of any crime."
and,

" . . . and that there was special economic relationshp between Memory
Lane and Collectors Universe."

You misspelled maximum and relationship, genius.

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

And all spelling mistakes too (except our own, apparently)....

CONDEMN

We (the rest of the non-Dorskind world) are not amused.

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Posted By: Brian

Bruce -- why do yu refer to yurself in the plurral?


(I misspelled a word or two in hopes of you actually answering)



Maybe someone in the group should spell check the collective posts whilst others in the group point out the spelling errors of others. Call it multitasking?

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Posted By: Cobby33

Whether it's a hobby or a business, these incessant conspiracy theories (and rude comments) are encouraging me to start collecting stamps.

Hobbies are supposed to be fun. In a perfect world, so is business. Here, it's not fun, no matter how you slice it.

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Posted By: Mike

This thread has really increased my self esteem...after reading some of these comments, I feel a whole lot better about myself.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Am I the only one who is beginning to feel that Net54 is imploding? The increase in negative and combative threads makes me wonder why I invest so much time and energy. Any thoughts about this?

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Posted By: peter ullman

i agree barry...this is one of the reasons I'm a casual contributor. It seems lots of threads turn ugly really fast these days.

pete ullman in mn

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Posted By: leon

This board can get negative quickly. If I censor or edit I am wrong. If I let something go I am wrong. I guess I will be wrong....

I would prefer to talk about positive things...and the board person that called me the other day can attest to what I told him...."I would prefer not to have it (the JP debacle)on the board"...and less than an hour later someone else posted it.....I would have been crucified if I had NOT let it go...or God forbid Memory Lane was an advertiser...then I would definitely have been protecting them....sheesh...how 'bout talking about cards? For the record I don't think the board is imploding. I think it's being what it is....For those that get fed up I suggest a time away from it...like I will most likely do soon...(there will be a temporary moderator...the board will still be here)

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Posted By: Jason L

I echo your confusion and irritation. Days like today turn into such a soap opera, it's amazing.

There seem to be alot of really good folk here, and though I've never yet met any of you in person, I would say that I would welcome the chance to chat with many at a card show.

I really think it is a very basic explanation,-one that we hear time and again about how the internet has changed society, ...where people's behavior has become increasingly anti-social. Honestly, would everyone on this Board behave and treat each other the way we do at times, if it were all done face to face? I would hope not.

Used to be interesting to go to a show, buy and sell cards, meet some people, talk cards.
Now...
We collect via internet auctions and Board sales.
We are restricted to having to take pictures of our cards to show our friends via email.
We talk via the keyboard
and some of us apparently grow balls and biceps 5 times larger than actual size...

eh...just random thoughts on the subject...there's plenty of positives to the hobby's evolution too, but it gets easier to see the negatives on days like today and this past weekend....

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Posted By: scott brockelman

I believe if you look(as I am sure you have) that you will see it is a very small group of people that are continually arguing in regards to "protecting the hobby" most of whom have a huge stake in graded cards. Some of these people have come to the realization that all may not be as it appears. Given the nature of the hobby and where many of it's participants evolved from, I can't even imagine that these people did not do their due diligence in forming these large collections. Instead they placed large amounts of money and blind faith to a few dealers. NOW, they wish to be proactive in reforming the entire hobby, in reality they are being reactive, to what could be a severe loss to them.

The core collectors on this board have spent years researching the cards they collect. In most instances they know much more about the sets they specialize in than most of graders and other experts. How many times have some of us been approached by grading companies to give some type of opinion?

To embark on assembling vintage card sets, one must first learn about that set, thru handling the cards, lots of cards, examine the stock, examine the edges, examine the print process used. In time you learn what is good and bad. This larger group of collectors has little to lose in the way of tampered cards or any other malady found inside of a holder which they cannot detect. They have spent immense time studying their collectible before spending immense amount of money, AND yes some of these people in the second group do spend large amounts of money as well.

Whatever unfolds in the collectibles of vintage cards, rest assured the collectors of the base material will always be there. Most other collectibles have weathered similar situations and came back to previous glory thru the collector not the investor.

Scott

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Posted By: David Vargha

We (I and the voices in my head) would disagree that common sense and logic are the dictates for drawing conclusions about the actions of PSA. The monetary numbers tossed around, while making sense in terms of ratios and proportions, have little to do with how PSA and Joe Orlando make decisions. Otherwise, Dan McKee would never have had to sue them and Frank Fried would have been compensated for PSA's obvious mistake. No, simple logic is hardly the order of the day over at CU in handling such issues.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: E, Daniel

I think your premise that you have repeated (as have Frank, as have Ted) about handling the cards, getting to know them personally over years and years of collecting, in order to then be entitled to collect them (or complain about ineptitude of others when juding the condition third hand) - is unfair.

Firstly, I believe those whose collecting past goes back more than 10 years had an extreme advantage in that much of the material then WAS ungraded, and therefore available to be handled, that prices for obscure and less collected sets made buying them and playing with them a much more possible past time, and that the very obtaining of them often happened at shows, or privately, where collectors who knew eachother enabled one another to enjoy the cards in such manner.....wow, long sentence!

To constantly have a go at collectors who collect in a different way than you have is incredibly grating. I would also have you consider that while you regularly claim some great majority (as do the Republican party about the nature of this country - OVERWHELMINGLY conservative they try to convince us) as non-graded specialists, I would disagree vociferously.

I think the split, at the very least, would be 50-50 amongst those whose majority collections are being converted into graded and those who are steadfastly keeping their cards raw.

To be so condescending and superior in your opinions when large numbers of collectors feel differently to yourself, does little to gain your thoughts much respect.


Sincerely
Daniel

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Posted By: Mike

For the record, I am "somewhat" apologetic about my previous comment. But sometimes, ya' got to let it out. I came to this forum, for several reasons. 1, to increase my knowledge, about all things card related. 2, maybe come across a few nuggets for sale or trade. 3, to meet other folks who have the same passion that I do. And it is a passion. I absolutely love the hobby. Even with it's issues, problems and scoundrels that we all bang into occasionally. The vast majority of people in the hobby are decent honest people. Most dealers are decent honest business men. Most grading services, do their best, and are honest in their tasks. An extremely high percentage of E bay transactions go through without a hitch. Most auctions go on without a problem. Why is it then, that we spend such an inordinate amount of time arguing, and fighting? And for the most part, it is usually surrounding pointless issues. I learn nothing from this type of thread. I don't find any nuggets or gems for sale in this type of thread. I don't meet anyone of any consequence from this type of thread. And in fact usually find folks who I'd rather not meet. Threads often deal with, what some folks regard as shoddy work, that the graders perform. I suggest we clean up our own yard first, before we continually look to slam others. Now...can we get back to cards.

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Posted By: JK

Daniel,

I think your critique of Scott's post is itself a bit unfair. While, excuse me, whilste I agree completely with your point that long time collectors have a definite advantage regarding handling vintage material and learning about the cards first hand, I did not interpret Scott's post as bashing those of us who prefer graded material. If Im not mistaken, Scott is not someone who has ever been condescending toward graded card collectors and collects graded cards himself. I interpreted his post as a statement on the "investor vs. collector" dichotomy.

Just my two cents.


(edited to spell dichotomy correctly).

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Posted By: E, Daniel

No JK, I read his last couple of paragraphs as "you get what you deserve" if you don't collect raw, and over considerable time, and get to know each issue for its subtleties.
I just don't feel it accurately reflects the collecting hobby today, what is and isn't possible, and more importantly what should and shouldn't be the way of doing things.
I thought we had a great thread not that long ago that went, 'collect how you want to collect, there is no right and wrong way, and there is room for all'.

The idea that somehow a very small number of collectors with high grade material drives all discussion and angst regarding grading standards or the problems with altered material, is patently untrue.

I have ONE card graded higher than a 3 in my pre-war.
About 40% of my collection was purchased raw, and I consider myself very very lucky (not smart) for the opportunity to see them raw - and for the fact many of these cards would not be available any longer for the collector to buy that way.

Either way, the issues mentioned above speak to me, and just perhaps others who don't have PSA6's and above in their collections, and I'm tired of being typecast by a few on this board.

Is that OK?


Daniel

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I have gotta laugh at these guys who consider themselves the heart and soul of the hobby who think its just fine to restore and alter cards as they see fit and to ridicule those who are trying to restore honesty and integrity back to the hobby.

I also have got to laugh at the idea that somehow high grade psa or sgc holders is where most of the altered cards lie. Hey, there is a reason most of these ungraded cards are not in holders and that is because they cannot grade because they are altered. And you low-grade collectors--it is easier to alter low grade than high grade cards.

Lastly I have to laugh at the allegations that somehow the 5-10 fold increase in high grade vintage graded card prices over the last decade or so and the fear that it might reverse is driving the decision to bring ethics back into the hobby.

Jim

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I have gotta laugh at these guys who consider themselves the heart and soul of the hobby who think its just fine to restore and alter cards as they see fit and to ridicule those who are trying to restore honesty and integrity back to the hobby.

I also have got to laugh at the idea that somehow high grade psa or sgc holders is where most of the altered cards lie. Hey, there is a reason most of these ungraded cards are not in holders and that is because they cannot grade because they are altered. And you low-grade collectors--it is easier to alter low grade than high grade cards.

Lastly I have to laugh at the allegations that somehow the 5-10 fold increase in high grade vintage graded card prices over the last decade or so and the fear that it might reverse is driving the decision to bring ethics back into the hobby.

Jim

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

I think all of this is great. It's better than any soap or trashy novel. I see the hobby as just fine (and yes Bruce this is a hobby according to most!) The best way to describe this hobby is: It is a two sided coin, one side you have the people who "foremost" love the cards, the history of the game, and collecting in general. Those people I call collectors. Then on the other side you have what I call "A Money Guy" they usually buy in hopes to flip an item for a profit in the near or distant future. Now I know dealers on both sides of this coin and do realize that they have chosen this hobby as there main source of income and that is GREAT, but Bruce to say that collecting sports cards is not a hobby and to give the impression to me that you only see it as a business is very sad in my eyes. I personally would not want to buy cards from anyone who only she me as a $. I do that with everything else in my life but not my "hobby". So Bruce with some of the comments you have made here makes me think you are "A Money Guy" and in my eyes that is not a good thing for this hobby. I have never meet you and hope one day we can meet and talk all this out in person.

Trevor Hocking

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Posted By: barrysloate

This is actually very funny: I posed the question do some feel that the board has become too combative, and the response was yet another fight between the graded card collectors and those who don't like grading. So my question about the level of fighting precipated a new fight! I guess in some ways I do find this entertaining

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Posted By: scott brockelman

I believe you read a little too much into my post. I was not trying to putdown the buyers of high grade cards, I was suggesting that they learn more about what they are buying in the slabs to protect themselves. You may not know but I have quite a few slabs and sets on the Registry as well, so I believe I am well versed to speak on both sides of the issue. I do agree it is much harder to find raw cards to get slabbed than 2 years ago or 5 or 10 years ago. So if that is the case lets choose the next best option, learn what to look for in the slab, what are the signs of tampering, trimming, etc. AND deal with reputable people, that seems to be the focus of at least 2 other threads of late.

Until proven different by solid evidence I still believe the number of collectors of high grade PSA 8's, 9's and 10's is miniscule compared to the number of raw collectors thru nrmt(raw or graded). In terms of dollars I would imagine that the 2 factions may be close, but again there is strength in numbers and if there are 98 low to mid grade collectors for every 2 high grade collectors I think the volume of the 98 will be greater than the other 2, trust me I know several collectors that spend huge amounts of money on cards and are not seeking 8's.

Scott

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Sorry if I jumped too far Scott, I agree with every thing you've said including proportions of collectors collecting at the different tiers.
I was pointing (perhaps too hotly) in my post to the pure numbers collecting raw versus collecting either slabbed or slabbing immediately after purchase, and that their (the grading preference community) collecting experiences cannot be minimized because of historical opportunities no longer available to them.
I still don't believe the concerns regarding crappy grading and altered cards is the domain of just high grade collectors, as I hardly fall into that catagory, but have become too sensitive I fear to people's descriptions. I also would love to hear your ideas for checking post graded material. Black light is well understood, but how does one argue a fresh looking edge is recently cut if a grading company has decided it vintage? I realize their expertise with vintage issues might not be what a seasoned collector's is, but checking edges is checking edges through every decade of issue, and their experience in looking at thousands upon thousands of cards (probably monthly) surely tips the scales their way in terms of likely accuracy..?

I'll try and stay out of Bruce threads - they always somehow get me in trouble even when I'm not responding directly to his post.

To each his own.

Daniel

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Posted By: JimCrandell

"The idea that somehow a very small number of collectors with high grade material drives all discussion and angst regarding grading standards or the problems with altered material, is patently untrue."

Of course you are right here Daniel which is why we have reached out to all kinds of collectors in our efforts to form a group to examine these issues and have invited all to participate.

Jim

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Posted By: Bob

Bruce- While hammering Josh for spelling errors you might want to notice that strictly is not spelled "strickly."
tb

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Posted By: Bob

Bruce,
In your initial post, your numbers & relationships don't make sense.

Items Graded:
Coins 58%
Sportscards 38%
Total 96%

Revenue:
Coins 69%
Sportscards 24%
Total 93%

Of course there is always the infamous "Other".
Sorry, I could not help myself.

Back on topic I liken my interest to our hobby to that of a junkie. I buy and sell to support my addiction. I have been collecting sportscards since the late 60's and it is very much a hobby to me. In terms of the ever increasing dollars involved I cannot, of course, ignore the business aspect of it. Trevor did a nice job of bifurcating this.
My thoughts. No spell check - sure hope I did not make a boo boo.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

My guess is that the rest of the PSA stuff is autographs and photos.

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

Dear Bob:

The numbers make sense for the following reason.

The first number reflects the number of coins and cards
graded in 2005.

The revenue number reflects the fees received by CU for
grading. CU receives much higher fees for certain coins
(remember there are thousands of coins worth more than
$10,000) than it does for baseball cards.

Other items graded include paper money, stamps and
autographs. These items represent less than 5%
of the total number of items graded and less than 7%
of CU's total revenue.

We hope this explanation answers your questions.

FYI, we handled this matter ourselves.


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: E, Daniel

is that it must be hard TO REMEMBER to write in the plural......I've never noticed you get it wrong? Have you been doing it a long time?

Daniel

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Posted By: barrysloate

Daniel- you are right. He even got "ourselves". It's a practiced skill.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I called Leon as he indicated in his post about an hour before Greg posted the three articles on JP Cohen. I was seeking his advice on posting something I knew would cause an all-time record in hits to Net54. After explaining it to Leon, his advice was not to put it up but as I recall he said he would not take it down if I decided to. Looking back, I am glad that Greg put it up and I think Leon has said in retrospect that this was the correct decision.

As an aside, for those of you who don't know Greg(Bottom of the Ninth) you are missing out on someone who knows the ins and outs of the hobby more than anyone that I know. If we are fortunate, he will at some point join our group looking to clean up the hobby.

Jim

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Posted By: peter ullman

i remember going skiing as a kid and there'd be a few scattered snow boarders sprawled out on the hills...I thought they were annoying just laying there in my way.

now i go skiing and there are a few skiiers and snow boarders everywhere...times change.

pete in mn